That's what I thought at first too, and ran fewer Tops. But the more I played it, the more I realized how good Top was to the deck in general, not just for Miracles. It smooths out draws so much, and with 9 fetches, can immensely improve our card selection. If I have one in play, I seem to always be able to find what I need, whether it be a land, counterspell, removal, or win condition. I honestly think its good enough to justify its own inclusion.Originally Posted by matunos
I would run more Terminus main, as it has been amazing, but I really don't know what to cut. I don't want to go below our 9 counters threshold. Entreat in place of Elspeth is something I'm open to, but I tend to enjoy winning through incremental card advantage, not big flashy finishers. I tried Counterbalance before and found it wasn't doing enough...our curve kinda sucks and dropping it turn 2 is quite vulnerable. I've never had a problem countering key threats. Do you personally like Counterbalance main?
As for Land Tax, I think if anything it would belong in a more control build, probably closer to Miracle Control. Unfortunately, I don't have the time and money to test Land Tax at this moment :/
Last edited by supachai; 07-02-2012 at 04:53 AM.
I also don't think that playing 3 Tops can be wrong - no matter how many Miracles you jam maindeck. Top is very strong on its own.
However, with 3 Tops, I think 3 CB in the board is justifiable. I don't like them Maindeck that much because they don't do enough against Maverick and Sneak/Show. CB is of course very good against RUG and other combos (Reanimator, Storm), so having them in the board as additional counters seems good.
Here is what I am trying at the moment:
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
3 Terminus
1 Ponder
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
4 Island
1 Plains
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Wasteland
1 Mishra's Factory
1 Karakas
SB:
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Path to Exile
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
3 Counterbalance
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Terminus
The maindeck Ponder could probably be something else, but I don't want to clutter the list with another high cc spell (EtA, ORing, Elspeth or something similar). The 4th SFM is also not needed imo - at least I'm almost never on the plan of playing one on T2.
The board also could use some work as it's currently very weak to e.g. Sneak/Show.
@TkDodo
I like this list, it's similar in many ways to mine. Always good to see confirmation of my choices and results. A couple questions though. Without Elspeth/Entreat/only 1 Mishra's, do you find that you have trouble finding a win condition on time?
I've been thinking about dropping a Mystic lately...I often find extra's in my hand doing nothing. I'm just hesitant since the first one often gets countered, and finding equipment and sticking bodies helps a lot. Having two can also be great since the first one gets you Jitte, and your opponent likely will not kill it immediately, waiting for you to equip. Then you play a second one, and can "vial" in Batterskull immediately. I don't think drawing 2 is ever bad-any more become extraneous but we do have Jace/Top/Bstorm to avoid that.
Are you splashing red as well? If so, how does your board look like?
I haven't had issues finding win conditions in time so far - I pretty much play as many win conditions as in the times before Terminus (-1 SFM actually), but I believe Jaces are a lot stronger right now, because you get to land them more often on empty boards thanks to Terminus.
Regarding the 4th SFM: Sure, he's probably almost never "dead", but I think it's about optimizing the main deck. I believe he is not needed, and space is generally tight, so we can probably find a better card in that slot. Truth is, I haven't so far ;) The one off Ponder has actually not been that relevant for me in the early game, as I rarely have the mana capacity to tap for it T1 or T2 (keeping mana open for Spell Pierce, CSpell, BS or even just bluffing those). In the late game, a SFM is almost always one of the better things you could find with a Ponder anyway, so you might as well play the 4th SFM.
I dunno, but I begin to like something like Shackles in that spot, or maybe an EE.
If you are splashing red for REB why not put one single Engineered Explosives instead of either Elspeth or the lone Terminus? Serves quite same purpose but can also deal with other permanents as well. The SB looks quite geared towards aggro already with the paths.
Replacing the SB Terminus with an EE sounds fine, but I don't think an EE meets the same slot that the Elspeth is meant for. That is, EE isn't a wincon, Elspeth is. Typically you bring in Elspeth for matchups in which Elspeth is either just really good by herself, and/or you're siding out 1-2 JTMS due to expectations of REBs.
Since the list above has 2 main win conditions (Batterskull or planeswalker; yes, the Sword/Jitte can get there, but the decklist only has 8 creatures other than the Germ, and they're all relatively fragile), I wouldn't want to lose one of those options post-board just because your opponent is packing REBs, especially considering there's a good chance they're gonna be packing some level of artifact hate as well.
Replacing Elspeth with another wincon (e.g. Entreat the Angels) would be reasonable, though. Elspeth vs. Entreat is a good debate; in this case I think Entreat should be considered because you're already set up with the SDT plan, and your list is light on creatures, so you might not have someone to jump with Elspeth once you get her resolved, meaning you need to be able to create soldiers that stick around long enough for you to start jumping one of them instead of just chump-blocking. 1+ 4/4 flying Angels don't have this problem. Granted, they have their own weaknesses (EE, Pernicious Deed, Maelstrom Pulse, Echoing Truth, etc.), so it comes down to a meta call.
Also, arguably the Paths are superfluous since you're already running 4 StP, 3-4 Terminus and also the REB/Pyroblasts. For this reason, I would definitely consider replacing the Paths either with EE, or some other non-creature hate, depending on what's in your meta (Show and Tell [Gilded Drake, Metamorph]? mirror [Disenchants]? Esperblade [Sulfur Elemental]? Storm [Flusterstorm, Canonist, etc.])... unless your meta is just dominated by aggro.
Unfortunately I don't have Volcanic Islands, so I'm not playing a red splash. I think either way there are advantages and disadvantages. My mana base is incredibly steady. 6 basics and 9 fetches means im pretty resistant to Wasteland. I think depending on your meta, splashing red for REB and Explosives can be very good. REB hits SnT, Jace, and Delver, three of the format's main win conditions right now. Explosives is similarly great against Storm Combo and Lingering Souls. (Man, I wish I had some Volcanic Islands).
I'm still not a fan of Counterbalance in the board (or the main). What do you board it in against? Storm? Much too risky to tap out turn 2 when you could have Counterspell or Spell Pierce up. Delver? By the time you can find it the game is usually decided already. Additionally, with Cavern of Souls running around and our shitty curve (0-3 cards at 3 CMC), I can't justify 3 slots. We also don't have Ponders to dig for them :/
Other than that though, sideboard looks good. I've been meaning to test 1 Elspeth/1 Entreat in the main. How has the sideboard plan worked out for you?
This thread needs moar Humility.
I'm having issues playing against Blade Control, and I'm wondering if you guys could help me out.
I play a primarily creature based deck. I'm getting nailed to the wall by StP + Snaps for StP. Is it worth it for me to bring in Surgical Extraction to blank your Snapcasters?
Referring to the art on Stasis:
Yeah, it is a good tool to fight sneak&show, reanimate, maverick and so on - but it also shut down our snapcaster&stoneforge (clique) engine. With Humility, we need Equipment or Planeswalker to rule the board situation.
@Mirrislegend: what colours you play? I think Surgical can work, but typically you need also ways to fight path,wrath and other sideboardhate against creature based decks.
TEAM MtG Berlin
Its a good thing that you run equipment, planeswalkers and man lands to break the symmetry. Pridemage is most decks de facto artifact/enchantment removal right now so humility is an absolute beast against many of the formats decks.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
I agree Humility is really good in todays meta. I am running Tkdodo's list and I am really enjoying it. I think there is room for change in the sideboard, but I play mostly on mws so I run into alot of different decks.
I think I would swap the relic or 1 surgical for a Humility, as it is really good with Elspeth.
So I now have 1 Humility maindeck...
What's the theory with Humility? Is it mainly anti-Griselbrand tech? If so, why not Gilded Drake instead?
Updated:
Oh, missed the mention of Qasali above.
I don't like the idea of needing all your own guys though, unless you're gonna run 4 manlands, I guess. 4 mana (5 if Thalia is out, none if Teeg is) is a lot. I like Cursed Totem for anti-Maverick/Elves/etc. It hurts SFM, but you still get the tutor.
The thought was basically this:
When Humility--a card that is already backbreaking against aggro--is also good against both of the best combo decks, it's time to play it in the main.
Of note: the Humility is my 5th 4-drop.
Malaki: Do you have a list posted somewhere with the Humility inclusion?
Humility seems like it would be pretty lackluster in creature MUs unless we already had out a Batterskull or Elspeth (or Moat). Humility negates every advantage our creatures would give us and they will definitely have the numbers advantage. I don't see the advantage over Cursed Totem or Guilded Drake.
Maverick has better creatures than we do, but we have the ability to equip ours. While Maverick also has Jitte in most recent lists, we have brainstorm, jace and ponder to dig for it.
It also seems like Goblins, Merfolk and other tribal decks are gaining popularity with Cavern of souls.
On the other hand both Gilded Drake and Cursed Totem have lower converted mana cost, but it does handle Griselbrand with Lifelink, a big Knight of the Reliquary etc.
Right, but turning everyone's creatures into vanilla 1/1's doesn't help when they still have 2-3 times more creatures than us. Humility is a good card, but it's best put to use in a creatureless style deck like planeswalker control. You need to back it up with Moat or some other way to break the symmetry.
Hand disruption, a tuned counter suite, and incremental advantage are our best bets at doing well. Cursed Totem is the closest thing to a trump that we have and I'm still not sure it's worth the space over more conventional disruption.
If only I had something like Batterskull, Jitte, Elspeth, Jace, or Mishra's Factory to break the symmetry.
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