[Deck] Dredge

[HokusSchmokus]

Yea but what i mean is .. Can you just explain me how the Painter+Grindstone combo works in a dredge deck ....

I get it now...you thought you target yourself right? It's called a transformational sideboard or morphboard. You side out your Dredgers and Bridges and use your cantrips to find the Grindstone combo. Unmask is there to protect you. They side in creature hate. You kill them with Painter+Grindstone.

[Michael Keller]

@Hollywood

How was 3 Ichorids as your only win conditions as opposed to 4 Ichorids or 3 Ichorids and 1 Dread Return? Did you ever have any trouble killing your opponent game 1 or did you just burry your opponent with Zombies and not even notice the difference?

I didn't notice a single difference as far as explosiveness and redundancy was concerned. Actually, the deck felt like it clicked better on all cylinders with Darkblast(s) added to the main. Dread Return is always nice to have, and I might go back to one or two, but right now I think three (3) Ichorid is the right number in a non-Quadlazer list. I was able to overwhelm opponents with Ichorids and Zombies and it was just too much to for them to handle game one.

Game two I was able to shore up Extraction-based strategies using the usual suspects, and I even managed to beat the Miracle player who resolved double Extraction (Bridge and Cabal Therapy), double Terminus and double Crypt activations. I just went serious beat-down with Ichorids, Narcomoebas and Ashen Ghouls, and while it was hard to overcome, I just kept my head in the game and ground it out.

I've been wanting to see how few kill conditions I could get away with for awhile, but I ended up rounding off that 4th slot with a Dread Return that usually gets SBed out regardless for game 2 (which I think is clearly sub-optimal)

To be honest, the one Dread Return was okay at best as a sacrifice outlet to make tokens and not much more. Yeah, it was nice to bring in targets and animate them, but honestly I just think the Ghoul plan is so much better because it's more straight-forward and requires less setup. Dread Return is just another avenue you can take to beat hate, but I think Ghoul cleans that up nicely as is.

My list is always in flux, but this is what it currently has evolved into.

I'm not sure about 10 gold lands post-board, the math favors 11 with the 12th having diminishing returns.

It is true that the math favors the 11th gold land post-board, but the problem is that it takes up another slot. It might just be a matter of preference, but I've never had an issue with running this configuration except for Tarnished Citadel being an upgrade from Undiscovered Paradise, a card that makes awkward scenarios with Cephalid Coliseum.

Basically what I'm saying is that I think the slot is more important for something else aside from a relatively innocuous set of percentages that really is up to the player whether or not they see it as being more beneficial to run another land instead of something else.

I've never had a problem with ten (10) gold lands.

[TerribleTim68]

Ok, so I ran this at our local Legacy tourney last night. We had 12 players and a decent showing of what you'd expect to see. Here's the run-down -

The list (same as previously posted) :
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
3 Putrid Imp
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Memory's Journey
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
//////
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
3 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Grizzlebrand
1 Memory's Journey
1 Blazing Archon
1 Massacre Wurm

The report :

Round 1 vs Fish:
Game 1 - My opponent here isn't hte smartest and mentions he is still trying to get Force of Wills and Aether Vials for his deck. Yay me! He wins the roll and opens with a Mutavault and passes. I think "That's an odd start for fish." I draw, open with Gemstone Mine, Putrid Imp, Lion's Eye Diamond and pass. He draws and passes. I destroy him on my next turn.

Game 2 - He sides nothing (not sure he even had a sb) so I opt to stay with my main deck as well. I mull to 5, he opens with Island and passes. I open with the same start as last game and when his second land drop is again Mutavault I destroy him on my next turn.

This one really wasn't a match. The highlight of it all was during game 2. In my meta Dredge is the deck that NO ONE likes. It is more highly hated than you can even imagine. Players in my meta don't talk about it, they don't play it and they sure as hell don't respect it. So I'm trying to play round 1 all quiet and incognito, sitting over in the corner, speaking real soft, all that. Suddenly Feline sitting at the table next to us notices what I'm doing and shouts out "HOLY F$#K, YOU'RE PLAYING DREDGE!?!?!?" So goes my incognito. But the sheer terror in the way that statement was spoken was worth every penny!

(1-0)

Round 2 vs Candian Threshold (my arch-nemesis, Kevin Berg):
Game 1 - For those who have read any of my reports, Berg is the guy I CAN NOT beat, no matter what I play. He always plays the same deck and always wins the tournament. I often sneak off with 1 game here or there, but never win the match. This sucks. I buck up and mull to 4 before I find something that looks solid. He wins the roll and opens with a dual land and passes. I try to cast Careful Study only to be Force of Willed as he pitches a Spell Pierce. Good, 2 for 1 on the counters. He lays another dual land and passes. I lay another land, Lion's Eye Diamond, which is met with another Force of Will, pitching another Spell Pierce. Ok, drew 4 counters, this can't be horrible. I cast Faithless Looting and it goes through. Now I've got dredgers in the yard, so I make good use of this Breakthrough I'm holding and proceed to run away with game 1.

Game 2 - I know Berg brings the Surgical Extractions and some times Tormod's Crypt so I side in the Nature's Claims, dropping 1 Lion's Eye Diamond, 1 Careful Study and 1 Putrid Imp. I mull to 5, he snap keeps. He leads with Tormod's Crypt, land and passes. I'm not surprised but also not sure how to play this. I lead with land, Careful Study and drop some dredgers in the yard. My thought was "get him to pop that crypt". He drops a land on his turn 2 and runs out a Delver of Secrets, then passes. I dredge 6 on my draw, drop a Lion's Eye Diamond and cast a Faithless Looting. Somehow he ended up popping the crypt right before I was to discard to the Faithless Looting. So after the stack resolved, I discarded 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls to the looting and felt I was still in good shape. 2 dredgers in the yard, crypt gone, what could go wrong? Berg responds on my end step with Surgical Extraction. FML! I never recover from that and he handles me easily.

Game 3 - I decide it's best to drop the Dread Return and the Flame-Kin Zealot for the 4th Ichorid and the other Memory's Journey. I mull to 4 again and get something that looks decent. Berg snap keeps again. FML again! I decide it's best to just go nuts and force him to respond so I open with land, Breakthrough and pass. I now have a Golgari Grave-Troll and 2 Stinkweed Imps along with some other useless stuff in the yard. I'm feeling good until Berg responds on my end step with double Surgical Extraction. Really? I mean really? Nimble Mongoose goes the distance now that I have no hand, no dredgers in the yard and only 4 left in the deck. I still have no idea where it went so wrong.

(1-1)

Round 3 vs RUG Delver (my good friend Dave playing a borrowed deck):
Game 1 - Again, I lose the roll but I seem to not care so much with this deck. Dave leads with land, Nimble Mongoose and passes. I lead with land, Lion's Eye Diamond, Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough, pitch hand to first diamond for 3 red and proceed to dredge about 40 cards on turn 1 after hitting a couple Faithless Lootings. By the time I'm done Dave is picking up his cards and saying something along the lines of "Wow!"

Game 2 - I knew Dave had Tormod's Crypts. When you finish quick you get to scout, I mean watch. In come those Nature's Claims, dropping the Dread Return, Flame-Kin Zealot and a Careful Study. I also bring in the 4th Ichorid for a single Lion's Eye Diamond. Dave opens with a land and passes. I open with land, Faithless Looting only to see my old buddy Force of Will one more time. Dave then lays another land and a Nimble Mongoose and passes. I try to Careful Study on my turn 2 only to be countered again. Basically this one was all "counter the draw spells while I beat you down".

Game 3 - I open with land, Cabal Therapy and take a counter away. He opens with land, Tormod's Crypt and passes. I lay a land, Cabal Therapy again, Nature's Claim that crpyt and pass. He doesn't do much on his turn now that I've wrecked his hand. I go nuts on my turn and take this one. In the end, he played wrong. At one point I was recurring Ichorids like Henry Frankenstein and making Bridge From Below tokens like nobody's business. He had a Delver of Secrets and a Forked Bolt in hand and failed to use them before I Cabal Therapy'd that Delver away. Hey, I'll take it!

(2-1)

Round 4 vs Elf Combo:
Game 1 - I seem to face this deck every time so I feel confident about knowing what is coming. He wins the roll, leads with land, mana elf. I go nuts on turn 1 with that land, Lion's Eye Diamond, Breakthrough routine and it's over before he can even think straight. On turn 1 I was able to Dread Return the Flame-Kin Zealot with enough hasted Bridge From Below tokens to deal lethal.

Game 2 - I swap my Flame-Kin Zealot for that Massacre Wurm that I boarded JUST FOR THIS MATCHUP! I really don't know what g/y hate he has so I stay put there for now. I mull to 4 before finding something that looks good. He leads with land, mana dork and passes. I drop a land and Careful Study. His turn 2 he drops his hand of dudes, a Scavenging Ooze and a Gaea's Cradle and proceeds to empty my g/y. That was fun!

Game 3 - I decide to bring in those Firestorms to try to deal with his mob. I mull to 6, open with land, Careful Study and pass. He opens with land, mana dork, Faerie Macabre on my 2 dredgers and passes. Ugh! I drop another land and Faithless Looting to get some dredgers in the yard where they belong. He drops another land, Faerie Macabre my dredgers again and drops his hand of dudes. I'm out of gas now and die to a swarm of 1/1 mana dorks beating me for 7 a turn. FML! Seriously, FML!

(2-2)

In the end, I'm sort of happy with how the deck performed. What I didn't like is that it really feels very "all-in" after the initial turn because you've run out of what ever was in your hand and you don't draw anything the rest of the game. So if it doesn't have flashback, you have no answers. I felt like the Firestorms were totally useless since I usually pitched my hand to a Lion's Eye Diamond or a Breakthrough. So by the time I found it, it was in my yard and totally useless. I know I need more time with this deck to play it right. But how do you get around so much g/y hate?

[Michael Keller]

In the end, I'm sort of happy with how the deck performed. What I didn't like is that it really feels very "all-in" after the initial turn because you've run out of what ever was in your hand and you don't draw anything the rest of the game. So if it doesn't have flashback, you have no answers. I felt like the Firestorms were totally useless since I usually pitched my hand to a Lion's Eye Diamond or a Breakthrough. So by the time I found it, it was in my yard and totally useless. I know I need more time with this deck to play it right. But how do you get around so much g/y hate?

Practice. Lots and lots of it. Tons.

Also, you might want to read up here on what myself and a lot of the other folks have to offer as far as boarding strategies go. Remember: a round isn't over until you've won a game post-board. (With the idea you've got game one in the bag, and even then you need to mulligan properly and still win the game.)

[JonhLightning]

I felt like the Firestorms were totally useless since I usually pitched my hand to a Lion's Eye Diamond or a Breakthrough. So by the time I found it, it was in my yard and totally useless. I know I need more time with this deck to play it right. But how do you get around so much g/y hate?

This is why I dropped the Firestorm. They're really hard to use to your advantage when you run LED based Dredge. I'm currently trying to play around Surgical with more creatures off my sideboard AKA Bloodghast. I also add in more lands and try to get there if they force me to draw naturally. and Putrid Imp is really good with Bloodghast. Discard them and play your land. Give it a try I kinda like it.

[TerribleTim68]

I know I could use Ashen Ghoul out of the board, but I don't have any right now. I need to pick some up, they are dirt cheap. The BloodGhast idea seems decent and I tend to agree on needing more lands post board. I ran into a lot of situations where I had no lands at all after using a Gemstone Mine for a few turns and dredging to get no draws for more lands.

@JohnLightning - Nevermind, I found it one page back.

[Felidae]

Somehow he ended up popping the crypt right before I was to discard to the Faithless Looting.

Could you elaborate this situation a little further, as it sounds like both of you really messed up here.

[Que]

I'm not sure that I'll be able to write up a report for the Vegas Open. However, if anyone has any questions regarding the tournament then feel free to ask. I'll do my best to remember situations etc.

Overall though I had a blast and it was awesome getting a Top 8 alongside friends (Vidianto & Jason)

[HokusSchmokus]

Somehow he ended up popping the crypt right before I was to discard to the Faithless Looting.

Could you elaborate this situation a little further, as it sounds like both of you really messed up here.

This. Because the situation you discribed is not possible.

Also, your Archnemesis is quite beatable if he always extracts the first thing he sees :P

Other than that: I recommend a total of 2-3 more lands between main and sideboard, I'd also recommend to drop the Journey maindeck.
And by the way: Don't play Bloodghast. This creature doesn't belong in Legacy Dredge as it is and certainly not in LED Dredge.It has a smaller body than both Ichorid and Ashen Ghoul, requires more setup than Ichorid,Ashen Ghoul and Nether Shadow, doesn't die on it's own and doesn't even has haste.

[TerribleTim68]

Could you elaborate this situation a little further, as it sounds like both of you really messed up here.

I'll try, but I didn't take notes so I'm going off memory here (which is questionable at best).

So if I recall, on my turn 2 he was sitting with the Tormod's Crypt in play, two dual lands and the unflipped Delver of Secrets. I had Gemstone Mine on the board, the yard was Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp, Careful Study. For my draw, I dredged the Golgari Grave-Troll. Then on my main phase I dropped Lion's Eye Diamond, cast a Faithless Looting, snapped the Lion's Eye Diamond for 3 red (my favorite play) and dredged 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls. Berg had no response at that point so I pushed on hoping to hit a Narcomoeba or something that might be useful. I used the 3 red to flash back the Faithless Looting, dredging the 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls again. Berg chose to pop the Tormod's Crypt in response to my draw/dredging of the 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls. So he stated that he would pop it after the dredge but before the discard resolved.

I think he played it pretty damn smart because it allowed him to remove my graveyard at a point where the 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls would be left in the yard for him to then Surgical Extraction. Not thinking he would have both the Tormod's Crypt and the Surgical Extraction in his opening hand (or in hand by this point), I thought I was in a good spot ending up with the 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls in the yard at the end of all that. I felt like I could just start dredging again next turn and move on. Little did I know he had that much hate that quickly.

I'm open to any suggestions on what I did wrong here. Clearly I didn't do something right or I would have won the match. I like this deck but I know I need help for these situations. Keeping in mind that Berg is probably one of the most talented players in my meta and he plays a solid tier 1 deck, a double whammy.

[TerribleTim68]

...Also, your Archnemesis is quite beatable if he always extracts the first thing he sees :P...

Not sure he always Extracts the first thing he sees. But he tends to Extract dredgers over any other choice. But usually the dredgers are there to target first. With the counters targeting my draw spells and the Extractions targeting the dredgers, it gets very hard to get moving against him.

[smoky squirrel]

So he stated that he would pop it after the dredge but before the discard resolved.

I do not think that this is possible. Dredge is a replacement effect for a draw. You cannot have effects resolve (or cast spells) during the resolution of a spell. So he can pop the Crypt before Faithless Looting/Careful Study resolves, or after, but not before the discard.

[TerribleTim68]

I do not think that this is possible. Dredge is a replacement effect for a draw. You cannot have effects resolve (or cast spells) during the resolution of a spell. So he can pop the Crypt before Faithless Looting/Careful Study resolves, or after, but not before the discard.

That may be the case. Either way, I was still in trouble since he would have either removed my yard post discard, leaving me with nothing at all or used the Surgical pre dredge, leaving me with no dredgers and him still with a Crypt out. I'm not sure I could have gotten through that one regardless.

Not knowing he was holding a Surgical (since I did not know at the time), and facing the Crypt, what would you guys have done?

[Shadowmap]

I'll try, but I didn't take notes so I'm going off memory here (which is questionable at best).

So if I recall, on my turn 2 he was sitting with the Tormod's Crypt in play, two dual lands and the unflipped Delver of Secrets. I had Gemstone Mine on the board, the yard was Golgari Grave-Troll, Stinkweed Imp, Careful Study. For my draw, I dredged the Golgari Grave-Troll. Then on my main phase I dropped Lion's Eye Diamond, cast a Faithless Looting, snapped the Lion's Eye Diamond for 3 red (my favorite play) and dredged 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls. Berg had no response at that point so I pushed on hoping to hit a Narcomoeba or something that might be useful. I used the 3 red to flash back the Faithless Looting, dredging the 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls again. Berg chose to pop the Tormod's Crypt in response to my draw/dredging of the 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls. So he stated that he would pop it after the dredge but before the discard resolved.

I think he played it pretty damn smart because it allowed him to remove my graveyard at a point where the 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls would be left in the yard for him to then Surgical Extraction. Not thinking he would have both the Tormod's Crypt and the Surgical Extraction in his opening hand (or in hand by this point), I thought I was in a good spot ending up with the 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls in the yard at the end of all that. I felt like I could just start dredging again next turn and move on. Little did I know he had that much hate that quickly.

I'm open to any suggestions on what I did wrong here. Clearly I didn't do something right or I would have won the match. I like this deck but I know I need help for these situations. Keeping in mind that Berg is probably one of the most talented players in my meta and he plays a solid tier 1 deck, a double whammy.

The Bold part is one illegality, the Underline is another. You can't do anything while a card is resolving, so when you cast the first Looting you needed to finish resolving it, i.e. discard two cards, before you could pay 2R to flash it back. Not to mention that Looting in particular wouldn't even have been in the graveyard to flash back until you discard the two. The Underlined part is the same issue, he is not allowed to do anything such as pop Crypt before you discard the two cards to the looting that is on the stack.

EDIT: Long story short, what squirrel said ^^

[TerribleTim68]

..so when you cast the first Looting you needed to finish resolving it, i.e. discard two cards, before you could pay 2R to flash it back. Not to mention that Looting in particular wouldn't even have been in the graveyard to flash back until you discard the two. ...

I guess I wasn't clear enough in my writing. I cast the Faithless Looting from my hand, maintained priority and popped the Lion's Eye Diamond to float 3 red. This put my hand in my yard. I then resolved the Faithless Looting by using 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls (which were now conveniently in my yard) to replace my draws for that Faithless Looting. I discarded the same 2 Golgari Grave-Trolls to complete that Faithless Looting. It was now completely resolved. Then I used the floating 3 red to flash it back and do the same thing again.

I'm pretty sure I did that part right (even if it wasn't the right play to make).

[Shadowmap]

Ok yes, sorry for my misunderstanding everything there was done mechanically correctly.

As far as strategy, I don't think I would have used LED when he had a Crypt on the board, you can use the first Looting and slow dredging to make him blow it, then LED -> go nuts after. Yes the Surgical complicates thing, but it's hard to know when they have it (without using Therapy of course)

[TerribleTim68]

Sounds like I need to seriously learn how to slow dredge.

It's so tough because I'm such a "go for it" type of player. I usually want to run it out and force them to respond rather than wait for them to find answers. I prefer that "you either have an answer or I'm gonna win right now" mentality. More often than not, it's my demise.

[Holly]

I prefer that "you either have an answer or I'm gonna win right now" mentality.

Since he allready had the answer in play.. well you know how it turned out ;).

[HokusSchmokus]

Yeah, popping the LED was a bit overextending. But that's not the problem: Your opponent is not able to react while you are resolving a spell. Only after you discard for your Faithless Looting he can react.

It's so tough because I'm such a "go for it" type of player. I usually want to run it out and force them to respond rather than wait for them to find answers. I prefer that "you either have an answer or I'm gonna win right now" mentality. More often than not, it's my demise.

The problem is: you already knew he would blow up everything worthwile you dredge that turn with his crypt.so he HAD an answer already.
Don't worry. Playing through hate is one of the more advanced things a dredge pilot has to learn and eventually a resolved Crypt will be nothing more than a slow-down.

EDIT: DAMMIT HOLLY IS A FRICKIN NINJA!!!!

[TerribleTim68]

Since he allready had the answer in play.. well you know how it turned out ;).

TRU DAT!!!