[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Megadeus]

Liliana is a fine card on her own... You don't need anything to support her. Like has been said, we have arguably the best top decks in the format, and she gets you there. Even just game 1 she seals the game up for you. And she is better than a lot of things due to her being solid against anything

[Claymore]

That's fine that we can top deck Titans, but its not going to stop combo from going off on turn 1-3. Liliana's slow and untargetted discard against combo is no better than a Raven's crime on turn 2 or 3, and Raven's Crime is certainly not keeping Show and Tell or Ad Naseum in control these days. She alone will not get you to top deck mode against combo decks because you'll be dead before she gets even 5 counters.

However, Liliana along with extra targeted discard spells (need more than just Cabal Therapy) might be good for helping those of us in combo metas survive games 2 and 3, since we can target win cons or enablers first (T1 Duress/Thoughtseize, T2 Therapy) and then have Liliana keep consistent pressure until we can finish the game.

[Qweerios]

I intend on going back to straight GB tomorow and I would apreciate some feedback or ideas on a Living Wish package. Here is my expected list:


Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (27)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Living Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Tsunami


Thrun is experimental. I want to wish for Karakas and test him against Miracle.

[conboy31]

Last night I played some pre and bost board games with a normal GBw version against the top 8 miracle Ghent countertop deck. If anyone else is running GBw and has cut Thrun, you are going to be tough pressed to beat the miracle countertop deck. They have 3 Jaces and a counterbalance curve that goes from 1 to 6 (terminus). As mentioned by another previous poster, it is imperative to resolve a deeds and keep it on the board, because EOT Angels will kill us.

[FinnF]

Qweerios:

Vampire Hexmage might be useful as a Living Wish target, primarily to deal with problematic Planeswalkers (jace)...

[Boogie_Man]

I was wondering why there is no arbor, it would seem that the acceleration from gsz would be useful, plus you can fetch one whenever to avoid taking damage or saccing something you don't want.

Also. why don't you run force in the blue deck, at least in the side maybe?

Sorry if these are silly questions or they've been addressed.

[Arianrhod]

Okay, I'm far past the point of repeating answers to the same questions and concerns over and over again. I'm going to focus on the primer for now, and when someone who has proven their loyalty the thread asks for advice.

To-wit, Qweerios:

Metamorph seems like it overlaps in purpose with Karakas an awful lot. What are you intending on using the Metamorph for? Copying a Batterskull or some such?

Macabre doesn't seem very good because they're going to know you have it. Reanimator will likely just Thoughtseize it and then go off anyway, and vs Dredge, it isn't going to do enough. I'd consider a Yixlid Jailer.

Other than that, it looks fairly solid, although I'd caution you to run at least 3 or pref. the full 4 Wishes, or you'll be disappointed in them. If you had like one or two hate cards and a bomb in your board, then two would be fine -- but the way you have it configured atm, I don't think that two is going to be enough.

[Qweerios]

@Boogie,

Ramping with Dryad via GSZ isn't really an option. We don't keep 1 land hands like Mav and a GSZ @1 will get u the explorer you need instead. Dryad isn't bad in the GB version but it is certainly bad in the tricolored ones. It acts mostly as an emergency Therapy body but mostly its just a summoning sick nonbasic forest that dies to removal and Deed. I would definitely pack one if I intend to play with Recurring Nightmare though.

I don't think SB FoW is a good idea because there isn't many good maindeck blue cards for Nic Fit, therefore, there is rarely ever anything to pitch to it unless you have a blue core. As a SB option, Pierce, Fluster, and Negate are all better.

@FinnF,

Oh yeah, I definitely want Hexmage somewhere in there. Perhaps instead of Finks.

@Arianrhod,

Metamorph also works against Progenitus and is also an out to Sigarda. I like Macabre because I can side it in as GY hate G2 and still have Bog as a wish target. It is also uncounterable and I can use it the moment I choose to wish (T2 vs reanimator), so no more EoT Entomb followed by T2 Exhume. As for the number of wishes, I only really want Wish for silver bullets. Some of the wish targets like Macabre, Finks, Shriek, and Ichneumon are all cards I can side in without worrying about having nothing to wish for that would be relevant to the MU except for storm where I side in Ichneumon Druid and wish for ? Lodestone Golem, maybe?

[Claymore]

Metamorph can kill Emrakul and Progentitus. I was about to suggest Fleshbag Marauder for the same purpose but Metamorph seems a better fit.

[Arianrhod]

Why would you have to worry about Sigarda? Is there some asshole Maverick playing running her? Progenitus is a valid complaint, although I'd think that Liliana and I.Blood would take care of that problem.

I feel that since you're running wish for silver bullets, that actually means you want more of them than if you were running it just for more threat density. Those bullets are so powerful that you want them early against the relevant decks.

What about a slight, slight white splash? I'm thinking specifically of Canonist and Kataki, which are both really powerful hosers. Canonist would allow you to side in Ichneumon for GSZ, and then have a wish target. It would also open up Teeg, if you wanted to go that route. I'm not suggesting anything more than the slightest of splashes....like one Savannah and one Plains, maybe. Seems much better than Lodestone, in any event.

[Qweerios]

I would take Thalia and Teeg before Canonist but overall, yes, a white dual land could allow me to pack those. I agree that Prog is really not an issue for our deck but I do struggle against Sigarda when I encounter her. However, you make a good point with the overlap and I will probably cut Metamorph. If I do splash white (Savannah + Plains or something like that), then I won't want Ichneumon Druid at all since I will have access to Teeg and Thalia.

[Viridia]

Last night I played some pre and bost board games with a normal GBw version against the top 8 miracle Ghent countertop deck. If anyone else is running GBw and has cut Thrun, you are going to be tough pressed to beat the miracle countertop deck. They have 3 Jaces and a counterbalance curve that goes from 1 to 6 (terminus). As mentioned by another previous poster, it is imperative to resolve a deeds and keep it on the board, because EOT Angels will kill us.

A friend of mine who is an extremely good control and counterbalance player plays almost the same list and i'm having real big problems beating the deck, i figured it would be 45/55 or 40/60 but it seems even worse. Postboard gets a little bit better but still not good.

[Qweerios]

Miracle is nearly impossible to beat without Planeswalkers.

[Claymore]

If you really want to be an asshole, you can run Silklash Spider in the board. Block Sigarda all day long and wipe out every Entreat token to boot.

Or Arashi, the Sky Asunder if you don't want to bother with your trump card getting countered, which I've used hilariously against Splinter Twin in Modern.

[Water_Wizard]

Liliana helps beat combo, but I'd think she'd be better from the sideboard. She alone can not get you the win unless they are a horrible player and keep a very bad hand, so you need to bring in support cards for her that will dilute your deck anyway.

Games 2/3 when you have active hate going I can def see her helping, or if you destroy their hand with t1 and t2 discard then she can finish off the match with ease. She would've been great in my game against Hive Mind to finish out the match after I locked him out with Gaddock Teeg.

However, just her alone will do absolutely nothing. Turn 2 Liliana they'll discard a land and then kill you next turn with their two card combo. The deck needs targetted discard and/or Cranial effects to level the playing field and get the win against combo.

I'm gonna experiment with a few from the board, see what happens...

How did your experiment turn out? Your comments focus only on creature-less combo (Storm, High Tide, Belcher) and not Sneak-a-Fattie-into-Play (Sneak and Show / Reanimator). Liliana's -2 is highly relevant against the s-a-f-i-p decks, especially they're non-hasted fatties.

The fact that Liliana is permanent also makes a big difference. If you can 'lock' a combo player at a maximum hand size, it can really slow them down. And if turn 2 Liliana is too slow, it seems turn 3 (?) Cranial effects would also be would also be too slow. The Cranial effects against Storm don't impress me. Unless you are playing against straight UB ANT with 1 Tendrils, the storm decks have alternative kill conditions plus Burning Wish (Cranial doesn't touch their sideboard). They have Empty the Warrens, Grapeshot, Tendrils (plus another one in the sideboard). Cranial just seems damn slow and if I'm playing a deck like High Tide and you turn 2 burning wish for a cranial, you better believe I'm going to dig like hell for a Force of Will on my next turn. I can't think of any deck slow enough and linear enough for Cranial to have a game-ending impact.

That's fine that we can top deck Titans, but its not going to stop combo from going off on turn 1-3. Liliana's slow and untargetted discard against combo is no better than a Raven's crime on turn 2 or 3, and Raven's Crime is certainly not keeping Show and Tell or Ad Naseum in control these days. She alone will not get you to top deck mode against combo decks because you'll be dead before she gets even 5 counters.

However, Liliana along with extra targeted discard spells (need more than just Cabal Therapy) might be good for helping those of us in combo metas survive games 2 and 3, since we can target win cons or enablers first (T1 Duress/Thoughtseize, T2 Therapy) and then have Liliana keep consistent pressure until we can finish the game.

I agree. Against a combo deck with a good draw, there is not much we can do, but there is not much any non-blue deck can do. Again, these comments do not mention the Emrakuls and Griselbrands of the world. Liliana serves two purposes - untargetable, constant discard and creature sacrifice. In the current environment, both abilities are relevant. If the environment shifts away from s-a-f-i-p and Lil's -2 is no longer as relevant, I will happily replace her with Hymn to Tourach, which is very good against creatureless combo strategies.

@Boogie,

Ramping with Dryad via GSZ isn't really an option. We don't keep 1 land hands like Mav and a GSZ @1 will get u the explorer you need instead. Dryad isn't bad in the GB version but it is certainly bad in the tricolored ones. It acts mostly as an emergency Therapy body but mostly its just a summoning sick nonbasic forest that dies to removal and Deed. I would definitely pack one if I intend to play with Recurring Nightmare though.

Qweerios - just wanted to say thanks for this. I've wondered the same thing myself (why Dryad Arbor didn't see play). Your answer makes a lot of sense.

Miracle is nearly impossible to beat without Planeswalkers.

Does Thragtusk help out in this match up? If the UW player is going to Terminus, at least we have a 3/3 in play. Admittedly, I have not played this match up, but it seems like GSZing for Thragtusk (preferably with a Phyrexian Tower open to prevent exile) would be a decent road to victory.

I noticed you're running Tsunami (over Choke). I understand the non-bo of Choke and Deed, however, how often are we Deeding above 2 in the UW match up? Batterskull, Vendilion Clique, O-Ring, Sword of Feast and Famine? It seems like Batterskull and Sword of Feast and Famine are the only targets we would want to hit at 3 or above. Therefore, it seems most Deeds would be for 2 in order to remove Counterbalance, Stoneforge Mystic, and Snapcaster Mage. Tsunami seems more susceptible to Spell Pierce, but I guess Choke is more susceptible to Disenchant. I'm curious on your thoughts on this.

For those experiencing difficulty with the UW match-up, has anyone run the Jund version of the deck? It seems the extra Pyroblasts may be helpful. However, it seems like what is really needed is an answer to Terminus. Thragtusk is a solution. Planeswalkers are good. Any other suggestions?

Thanks,
W_W

[Megadeus]

I'm running the Jund version, but I haven't gotten to test it yet. The burn spells make you a bit better against Jace. And i feel like it gives Me better match ups across the board, but does make me weaker to wasteland

[Qweerios]

I chose Tsunami over Choke because explorer extracts lands from an opponent. Once your opponent has a considerable amount of lands on the field, 1 Tsunami often leaves your opponent with too few lands in his deck for all the fetches. Tsunami is also better against High Tide because of their low land count (17-19 lands) and because they can operate without an untap step.

Miracle is difficult because they have a wide range of CMC on their spells for CB, they play a lot of Jaces, and all of the cards you want them to discard are part of the top 3 cards of their deck. There is no other way to beat them than to apply pressure, and with a slow control deck like ours we need cards like Elspeth and Garruk. Thragtusk isn't good enough, Kodama, Thrun, and Sigarda are all better against Miracle.

[Water_Wizard]

I chose Tsunami over Choke because explorer extracts lands from an opponent. Once your opponent has a considerable amount of lands on the field, 1 Tsunami often leaves your opponent with too few lands in his deck for all the fetches. Tsunami is also better against High Tide because of their low land count (17-19 lands) and because they can operate without an untap step.

Miracle is difficult because they have a wide range of CMC on their spells for CB, they play a lot of Jaces, and all of the cards you want them to discard are part of the top 3 cards of their deck. There is no other way to beat them than to apply pressure, and with a slow control deck like ours we need cards like Elspeth and Garruk. Thragtusk isn't good enough, Kodama, Thrun, and Sigarda are all better against Miracle.

Thank you for the Tsunami explanation. It makes sense and I will give it a test run.

Regarding the UW match up, Liliana still has her ultimate ability, which can and does add up. I agree regarding the Planeswalkers, I believe they are essential to this match up. However, the other creatures you list (Kodama, Thrun, and Sigarda) all have hexproof / shroud, but I don't understand how this helps vs. Terminus. Thragtusk is going to leave behind a 3/3 after Terminus, plus he can be GSZ'd out again. Heck, even if they exile him, you are still getting a 3/3.

You prefer Garruk Relentless over Garruk Wildspeaker?

[Greenpoe]

I intend on going back to straight GB tomorow and I would apreciate some feedback or ideas on a Living Wish package. Here is my expected list:


Creatures (11)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wickerbough Elder
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Thragtusk
1 Primeval Titan

Spells (27)
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Thoughtseize
2 Innocent Blood
4 Green Sun's Zenith
2 Living Wish
2 Maelstrom Pulse

3 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Garruk, Primal Hunter

Lands (22)
1 Phyrexian Tower
1 Volrath's Stronghold
2 Treetop Village
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
4 Bayou
3 Forest
3 Swamp

Sideboard (15)
1 Wasteland
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Ichneumon Druid
1 Kitchen Finks
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Shriekmaw
1 Grave Titan
1 Phyrexian Metamorph
2 Extirpate
2 Duress
2 Tsunami


Thrun is experimental. I want to wish for Karakas and test him against Miracle.

Why not try a Persecutor in the SB? He's really quite strong in a lot of MU's, great against Delver, etc. Second, you should really, really have some un-counterable creature in the SB (probably Thrun, but maybe Vexing Shrusher or Gaea's Revenge?). Otherwise, blue players just let your Wish resolve and counter the creature (in general). Third, doesn't a playset of Thoughtseize and Cabal Therapies seem a bit much for discard? Consider dropping a Thoughtseize for another Garruk or another Wish. Just a thought.

[Claymore]

Grave Titan fills the bomb slot well enough it looks like. Persecutor does bring up the good need for more anti-aerial tech, but I dont think he fits a pressing silver bullet need.

Extra discard is what helps the GB fight our bad match ups, not to mention the ones with the counter magic for the Living Wish.