[Deck] Dredge

[Michael Keller]

Not a single Nature's Claim or Chain of Vapor in the sideboard, either.

At this point everyone can pretty much throw their hands up in the air and accept the fact that there is no such thing as an "optimal" Dredge list. I mean, seriously - how many times have we all circle-jerked around the same set of cards only to see unorthodox, personalized lists just place higher and higher in big events? Sure, conventional lists do well, but this beats the hell out of me. Either 1,000 people didn't know how to beat Dredge, or 1 person knew how to beat 1,100 people.

I think we may have reached a point of regression where it is almost impossible to next-level the format with the same core group of cards. My verdict is and always has been the strength of the player dictates over the strength of the list - especially in games two and three. Hopefully, this proves my theory to at least some minimal degree. We might as well just run four dredgers at this point. That should be your ticket to a Grand Prix win.

[Anusien]

Cutting a land for a Dredger is kind of funny, because they are both the only cards you need. It's like needing an extra arm, and making room for it by cutting a foot.

Also, honestly the reason why people can do well with unorthodox lists is that the difference in consistency is relatively minor: major changes may swing things by 10-15%, but minor changes are only a few percentage points. And just because it is possible to line up an 75% shot doesn't mean that everyone taking 70% shots will miss.

[Mojeh]

Well, I'd drop one of the two Dread Return targets before I'd do that. You really only need the one target, not two, in the main deck.

The problem is that one target helps the other. Griselbrand alone doesn't win me the game on the spot, and FKZ alone is a little situational. If I would play just 1 target and 2 DR, probably won't be neither FKZ or Grisel.

@Hollywood: If you are right, then it's a wonderful new to us, since the deck will 'reward' good players, even if their choices as deck builders were suboptimal.

@Anusien: I agree, cutting a land is against what I'm trying to fix here, any suggestion?

[Michael Keller]

Also, honestly the reason why people can do well with unorthodox lists is that the difference in consistency is relatively minor: major changes may swing things by 10-15%, but minor changes are only a few percentage points. And just because it is possible to line up an 75% shot doesn't mean that everyone taking 70% shots will miss.

Which is exactly why the entire basis of multiple arguments in here make no sense to me. At this point, it's relatively obvious that even a sub-standard list in the hands of a skilled pilot can navigate the deck through the Swiss and into Top Eight.

[Anusien]

Which is exactly why the entire basis of multiple arguments in here make no sense to me. At this point, it's relatively obvious that even a sub-standard list in the hands of a skilled pilot can navigate the deck through the Swiss and into Top Eight.

You're right. That is definitely an argument that justifies sub-optimal decklists.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

Congratulations to Brambilla Mario who made it to the 2nd place at Arcore (MI) 5ª Tappa SLC 2012 (1121 players) with LED Dredge!


Mario's Decklist:

1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Griselbrand
2 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
3 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Narcomoeba
4 Stinkweed Imp

2 Dread Return
3 Breakthrough
3 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Bridge from Below
4 Lion's Eye Diamond

2 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine


SIDEBOARD:
3 Ancient Grudge
3 Ray of Revelation
2 Firestorm
1 Darkblast
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Woodfall Primus
1 Terastodon
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Cabal Therapy

1121 players is quite a huge number, so I googled a bit. There was a tournament at 14th of July, which was the 4th one of this tournament series. In this tournament participated 19 players.

I think a raise of over 1000 players in one week is really unlikely. But I'll verify this :-).

Even if this one was a small tournament, congratulations :-).

[Gui]

You're right. That is definitely an argument that justifies sub-optimal decklists.

In my view, although nothing justifies a sub-optimal list, the main argument in favor of these that say their lists are good despite the general belief that it's not is that it's really impossible to teorycraft a optimal decklist.

You can get a best w/l ratio decklist through extensive testing, but I guess that the minority of the players are able to do extensive and conclusive tests with decklists.

[TerribleTim68]

. . .but I guess that the minority of the players are able to do extensive and conclusive tests with decklists.

AGREED! That's why I come here. I don't have the time or the help to playtest/tune the way it takes. So thank you to all of you who post that info here.

[Brot_Ohne_Kruste]

1121 players is quite a huge number, so I googled a bit. There was a tournament at 14th of July, which was the 4th one of this tournament series. In this tournament participated 19 players.

I think a raise of over 1000 players in one week is really unlikely. But I'll verify this :-).

Even if this one was a small tournament, congratulations :-).

According to tipo1 the tournament had just 11 participants. So, don't worry about weird lists proceiding to the finals in such an big event :-).

[Godmode]

According to tipo1 the tournament had just 11 participants. So, don't worry about weird lists proceiding to the finals in such an big event :-).

That's weird. Every site says "1121 Players". But, if it really was a 11 player tournament thanks for clarifying that. I'm sorry I didn't look up into it. I just checked 4 different sites and they all say the same number, although, weirdly, they only show the top4 decklists.

[Julian23]

Only showing top4 decklists makes me quite sure it was just a 11 man event ;-)

[berry]

The original site/post says 1121 and the other 3 just reference the original without asking questions, so. We can all be glad this horrible list didn't do well. 0)

[woremak]

At this point everyone can pretty much throw their hands up in the air and accept the fact that there is no such thing as an "optimal" Dredge list. I mean, seriously - how many times have we all circle-jerked around the same set of cards only to see unorthodox, personalized lists just place higher and higher in big events?

I think it's indicative of the fact that you can tune the deck to your preference as a player. Personally, the only use I've ever found for Gristlebrand is feeding and Ichorid but other pilots I respect swear by him. I think some things have been resolved (play four trolls) but other things never will be. What I like the most about this thread (and the source in general) is that there don't seem to be a lot of strictly right answers, but there are certainly a lot of ideas brought up that I wouldn't have come up with alone.

[TerribleTim68]

...4 Ghoultree (these are great against Surgical/Cage)

Also, if you've never tried Ghoultree, it punishes players for trying to value you out with Crypt and makes Grafdigger's Cage look ridiculous...

I'd like to expand on your theory a bit. I picked up a playset of these out of the dollar rare stack. So what are you siding out when you bring them in? Do you auto side them for game 2 or do you wait to see what they run for hate?

[Final Fortune]

Cutting a land for a Dredger is kind of funny, because they are both the only cards you need. It's like needing an extra arm, and making room for it by cutting a foot.

Also, honestly the reason why people can do well with unorthodox lists is that the difference in consistency is relatively minor: major changes may swing things by 10-15%, but minor changes are only a few percentage points. And just because it is possible to line up an 75% shot doesn't mean that everyone taking 70% shots will miss.

In a sense, the problem tho' is mana sources are more important than dredgers game 2 when we have to cut LED and board in Ashen Ghoul, Tireless Tribe or Nature's Claim and support Faithless Looting and Cephalid Coliseum with just land activations. If we cut a dredger for a land, let's say the 12th Golgari Thug for the Xth Tarnished Citadel, we are replacing a hand with a foot MD but we're also closer to converging our MD and SB for game 2 and gaining SB space.

I think I like Quadlazer -1 Ichorid, -1 Golgari Thug for +2 Tarnished Citadels right now and the general SB plan of -4 LED for +3 Ashen Ghoul +1 Tarnished Citadel for the majority of my matches. SB is looking like, 4 LOTV, 3 Ghoul, 1 Citadel, 4 Chain, 3 Claim right now, which feels really good game 3 when I auto drop game 2 to LOTV/Cage because I can reliably draw into removal when it counts.

[Anusien]

@Final Fortune: The logical conclusion to this argument is to find the weakest non-land, non-Dredger card and cut it to maximize both.

[Calado]

@Final Fortune: The logical conclusion to this argument is to find the weakest non-land, non-Dredger card and cut it to maximize both.

Pimp?

[Fizzeler]

Pimp?

I personally like Pimp as early game he enables dredgers and beats, as well as late game feeds Ichorid and can always be used to Flashback Therapy

[Final Fortune]

@Final Fortune: The logical conclusion to this argument is to find the weakest non-land, non-Dredger card and cut it to maximize both.

Or in other words, we have to discuss whether or not X Pimps contribute more or less to the deck than the 12th Dredger and 11th land?

I'm pretty sure the Xth Land over the 12th Dredger is the right call btw.

[Michael Keller]

Or in other words, we have to discuss whether or not X Pimps contribute more or less to the deck than the 12th Dredger and 11th land?

I'm pretty sure the Xth Land over the 12th Dredger is the right call btw.

I agree with this. Lands are incredibly underrated in Dredge, which is why the Quadlazer list gets so much flack outside of Europe. Understandably, it can and has performed well, but you really need those gold lands to make things happen in the first two turns. Otherwise, you're looking at some really aggressive mulligans and awkward situations.