Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Yeah I don't really understand where this all is coming from either. The format is pretty settled for the moment with clear decks to beat but it's still fun and varied, nothing is broken, and plenty of tier 2 decks can still win on any given day. It seems like some people on these forums want to make Legacy into Modern with Force of Will and duals by banning anything that doesn't "play fair" and some want to go back to 1.5 by unbanning Drain and Workshop. I don't understand either of these lines of logic. If you want to play a format with Drain and Workshop why not just play Vintage? If you want to play a format without LEDs, Show and Tells, and Brainstorms why not play Modern?
I play all 3 formats right now and Vintage is about as versatile as the format has ever been, Modern is actually fun (something I thought I'd never say), and Legacy is in about the same spot it's been since Misstep left where on any given Sunday there are 15+ decks that could take the top prize. I can understand wanting to ban cards like S&T, I mean hell who likes losing to a turn 1 S&T Emrakul? Seriously though I struggle to understand the logic of wanting to unban a card as powerful as Workshop especially when it seems like from a power-level standpoint it would ruin the format, it would cut down the diversity of decks, and it would create a serious cost issue (You think decks are bad now? Try every Legacy player in the world buying into a set of Workshops at the same time).
big links in sigs are obnoxious -PR
Don't disrespect my dojo dude...
Sweep the leg!
I think it's amusing to go back and look at certain poster's responses to various SCD threads when then-new cards were spoiled. Obviously the Temporal Mastery SCD is a recent thread full of ridiculous overestimated hyperbole, but it's also interesting to see the other side of it in underestimation of format warping cards.
Jace, TMS:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?15872
Mental Misstep:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...tep&highlight=
Now to be fair, it is difficult to assess how a new card will affect the format without actual tournament testing, especially when you consider the fallout interaction of its presence (e.g. Misstep made Ancestral Vision a valid card draw engine, and slowed the format down to the point where Natural Order was among the best win conditions. This had numerous other ramifications.) But I find it hard to believe that ANYONE could not see the ridiculous overpowered nature of Jace TMS, especially since Pernicious Deed BUG/UW-Still was an existing deck.
With that in mind, it goes to show that posters on the source are generally incapable of correctly gauging the power level of cards, even cards that have existed for years and years. Consider the price gouging of Land Tax/Scroll Rack when the unbanning announcement was made. Land Tax is fringe-playable as a 1 or 2-of in certain decks, but has not made its way into any sort of dominant tier 1 archetype.
I think that it is important that the DCI continue to challenge the status quo and unban cards that were previously considered to be too overpowered. Legacy NOW is not the same as Legacy THEN, and each set can have a profound, dramatic effect on the metagame as a whole from a single printing (consider New Phyrexia: even without Mental Misstep, we still got Batterskull, elevating SFM from useful utility creature in Wx aggro decks to a mainstay win-condition/control element in UWx control decks.) I think Survival could be unbanned at some point, and possibly even Misstep. But come on... Workshop? No. Just no.
Alternatively, they could print 'fixed' versions of these cards, such as Survival that -exiles- the creature rather than discarding it, or a Misstep that only counters instants/sorceries. But that's another topic.
Last edited by wcm8; 08-15-2012 at 04:23 PM.
I'm pretty sure the Magic community agreed that calling everything a Time Walk was stupid, didn't we?Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
The fact is that if turn 1 Trinisphere were so devastating, then the decks that can do it fairly reliably would at least be viable without Workshop. Dragon Stompy and Welder-Painter have Sol Lands and Moxen and Simian Spirit Guide; a turn 1 Trinisphere isn't vastly harder for these decks to pull off with these cards than it would be with Mishra's Workshop. If Workshop were to absolutely make these decks off the wall insane, OP, so good, then we would expect to see this strategy be at least viable with the tools already available.
But it's not. The Grim Monolith/Metalworker decks, the turn 1 Chalice decks, they all suck. They suck hard. No one does well with Smokestack. Why should they? They've gotten two new cards (Wurmcoil and Forgemaster) since the card was banned with the b/r list separation and 1.5 became Legacy; other decks have gotten shit tons of new toys.
There's a lot of people doing a lot of work here to argue that a deck that can't deal with turn 1 Noble Hierarch is broken.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
For me this sentence summarizes almost every single post made in this thread (and similar threads).
Staxx is a Deck in Legacy but indeed a fragile one. Legacy's accelerator are two edged blades:
Ancient tomb: 2 mana but 2 damage, the best available
City of traitors: sacs if you Play more land, 2 mana
Simian Spirit Guide: One red mana for a card investment
Grim monolith: 2 Initial mana, 3 mana output; One Time only without tricks like voltaic
Lotus Petal: See SSG
Chrome mox: carddisadvantage, needs colored cards
Mox diamond: carddisadvantage, eats mana sources
Legacy Staxx/Dragon stompy invests a massive amount of it's resources for it's Turn 1/2 plays; if they got answered they are dead in the water. Vintage can use these slots of additional acceleration for threats. That's a huge difference
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It's not exactly a fair comparison. If workshop were legal, you could play 1 land, tap it, and cast a trinisphere. If the opponent forces it, then they're down a card. The legacy decks that currently use trinisphere have to use at least 2 cards in order to cast it on turn 1, and in the case of mox diamond or chrome mox, they have to use at least 3. This way, at least the opponent can break even with a force of will.
Of course, trinisphere isn't the problem. Getting 2 extra mana from a land with little drawback is the problem, because it is essentially +2 card advantage as soon as you play it. City of traitors and ancient tomb are already pushing the boundaries of free mana, and workshop gives even more with fewer disadvantages. Mox diamond and chrome mox are even more punishing, requiring you to waste 2 cards for just 1 mana.
On Workshop:
Just to let y'all know;
A) Turn one mana source> Trinisphere (involves half, if not, most of your hand) is usually followed by a dead turn two.
B)Workshop>Trinisphere followed by turn two (insert a typical MUD robot)
While Workshop to Trinisphere isn't always going to happen, Workshop adds more consistency to turn one Trinisphere/Chalice/Sphere of Resistance/Lodestone Golem.
I actually like it.
Though back to the topic, the reason why a turn one Trinisphere isn't so backbreaking in the current format is because it needs too much to pull off and it's harder to capitalize out of it. With Workshop, you can easily follow up a turn one Trinisphere with additional resistors to further lock the game or threats to quickly end the game.
I am convinced that WotC is "dumbing" the game because of all the stupid posts they come across on MTG-related forums
I wouldn't call Jace "ridiculous[ly] overpowered" in Legacy, or at least not any more overpowered than practically all the other cards are. He was ridiculously overpowered in Standard, to be fair, but the posters there are primarily talking about Legacy. And again, a fair amount of people were correctly noticing he was pretty good.
Though statements like "Regular Jace is barely playable in Legacy and certainly better than this." are rather amusing in retrospect.
What connection is there between sentences one and two of the quote here? Saying "the price of Land Tax went up after it was unbanned" is pretty disconnected from any statement being made about posters here, unless you can somehow demonstrate it was because of posters here that it did so.With that in mind, it goes to show that posters on the source are generally incapable of correctly gauging the power level of cards, even cards that have existed for years and years. Consider the price gouging of Land Tax/Scroll Rack when the unbanning announcement was made. Land Tax is fringe-playable as a 1 or 2-of in certain decks, but has not made its way into any sort of dominant tier 1 archetype.
The connection between price and hype/perceived competitive value is obvious, I think. Temporal Mastery was pre-selling for $40 and can now be easily found for far less than that now that it's failed to deliver on certain posters' claims of it being a ban-worthy 'Time Walk in Legacy'. I wasn't trying to say that posters on the source being hypebolic are the sole (or even significant) contributing factor for cards to be ridiculously priced, but there seems to be a correlation between public hype and card prices. I was just using the price-gouging on Land Tax (a card in relative plentiful abundance due to being reprinted in 4th edition) to illustrate the disconnect between hype and actual results.
I think ultimately cards should not be viewed in a vacuum and should be valued by how they fit into an existing environment. Mental Misstep is Standard legal after all, and no one would argue that it's overly oppressive there. Likewise, a card like Earthcraft is probably safe to come off the banned list when plenty of other (arguably better, more efficient) two card combos are Legacy legal.
I think it's important to also remember that 'fun' is a criteria for deciding on a card's legality, as nebulous and subjective that term may be. But I think most players would agree that a card like Black Vise, while perhaps not overpowered, isn't much fun to play against.
The problem is that there's a big difference between "public hype" and "postings on the Source." Temporal Mastery went really high up in price because there was a lot of hype, but there was a lot of hype beyond just here (if anything, The Source was where I saw a few saner heads prevail and point out how it was probably being overhyped). But even if every member of this site had thought "it's playable, but not broken" then Temporal Mastery would've still had a high initial price because of the hype everywhere else.
Except the general reaction, from what I remember, from posters on this board about the Land Tax unban was "about time, that card is innocuous." So there really isn't a real connection between what you were saying, as you were trying to draw some connection between people here hyping up Land Tax when as far as I could tell the opposite was true.I was just using the price-gouging on Land Tax (a card in relative plentiful abundance due to being reprinted in 4th edition) to illustrate the disconnect between hype and actual results.
True... that really on the positive side to thesource. Despite a lot of people beeing "infected" with a hype from time to time (including myself), there are some sane, experienced players on thesource always pointing out to "keep it real".
Magic writers are sometimes also part of some kind of business and therefore also in many cases contribute to the hype by actively supporting it or just not (or too late) pointing out that a card is overhyped.
Currently playing: Elves
Those decks aren't going to just mull into Workshop, though, they'd also have to run the Sol Lands, Monolith, Mox, if not SSG, though.
And here's the problem; when you say, "City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb are already pushing the boundaries of free mana," I disagree. And I don't think there's any evidence that that's the case.
That doesn't mean automatically that Mishra's Workshop wouldn't be busted in Legacy, but there's no evidence that Ancient Tomb and City of Traitor are a threshold, and more efficient mana-producing lands are impossible to make without breaking the format.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
@IBA: I don't think anyone is going to jump on the 'let's unban Mishra's Workshop bandwagon'.
Just because a deck is also running worse cards, it doesn't make unfair cards justified. For example, just because a deck runs Ponder and Brainstorm, it doesn't mean that Ancestral Recall would be fair. In fact, the reverse is true. Stax and stompy decks are already able to compete pretty well using lands that are much worse than Workshop, so giving them Workshop would presumably put them over the top.
The games would also be much more random because the deck gets much stronger when they have Workshop in their opening hand.
The evidence is that Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors currently tap for the most mana of any realistically playable land. Also, both of those cards are used in multiple well-established archetypes. In fact, they're used in one of the current "best" decks, show and tell. If Workshop were unbanned, it would automatically go into stax, stompy, and perhaps other decks (obviously it doesn't work with Show and Tell, but that deck should be an indicator as to the power of getting free mana).
Compare this to the argument for Mana Drain. Counterspell, which is one of the best unbanned cards with a similar effect, is not being played much at all. This is a necessary step to proving that Mana Drain would be fair. Since Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are already good enough to see a lot of play, it implies that Workshop, a strictly better version of the same card, would be too good.
Of course, we can't definitively say that workshop is unfair since it's not even legal, so there's no real testing. In fact, this applies to any card on the ban list. However, since they were banned at one point, we have the presumption that all of the banned cards are unfair. The burden of proof lies on anyone who argues that they are fair. By my measure, the format is already at a good place with Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors.
A small fault in the reasoning there - Ancient Tomb in Show and Tell doesn't mean anything with regard to Workshop because it's unplayable there. Counterspell in blue decks can say something about Drain, same deck, similar card, same job, and City of Traitors and Ancient Tomb in Stompy and Stax do say many things. Just the simple upgrade of one of your manaboosting lands not self-destructing could prove to be huge. (Imagine City of Traitors not blowing up. Damn, that's a good land for MUD. Shop is that and a good bit more)
We are rapidly running out of the "obviously safe to unban" cards on the b/r list, so if we're to discuss any further unbannings we're going to have to get past Worldgorger and Mind Twist and discuss which cards might actually be good without being broken.
Make no mistake, I'm certainly not saying that Mishra's Workshop would be other than a very good card. But I see no reason why it wouldn't merely elevate a distinctly second tier strategy into strong playability.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I think it's important to note here that Stax and Stompy decks are not able to compete "pretty well" except in the limited sense by which Burn and Affinity also compete "pretty well."
Yes, obviously they would want to draw Workshop. They might even win a majority of games where they have Workshop in their first 7. Does that directly translate into brokenness?The games would also be much more random because the deck gets much stronger when they have Workshop in their opening hand.
The first part is begging the question, the second part is a sketchy argument; non-stax decks using extra mana effectively doesn't say anything about the utility of an extra mana card that only makes sense in Stax (I don't think you would even want Workshop in a deck like Dragon Stompy since you can't cast Moons or fatties with it, unless maybe the threatbase got significantly altered.)The evidence is that Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors currently tap for the most mana of any realistically playable land. Also, both of those cards are used in multiple well-established archetypes. In fact, they're used in one of the current "best" decks, show and tell. If Workshop were unbanned, it would automatically go into stax, stompy, and perhaps other decks (obviously it doesn't work with Show and Tell, but that deck should be an indicator as to the power of getting free mana).
This is nonsensical because Counterspell has a better performance record than Ancient Tomb in Stax decks.Compare this to the argument for Mana Drain. Counterspell, which is one of the best unbanned cards with a similar effect, is not being played much at all. This is a necessary step to proving that Mana Drain would be fair. Since Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors are already good enough to see a lot of play, it implies that Workshop, a strictly better version of the same card, would be too good.
I mean I think both should get an experimental run off the banned list but I don't think there's a clearcut case that Workshop would end up being better than Drain, since Drain is immensely more flexible. Workshop can basically go in one deck.
How the fuck do you prove a card is fair? I mean I could use Black Lotus to cast 3x Wall of Wood, does that prove how fair Black Lotus is?Of course, we can't definitively say that workshop is unfair since it's not even legal, so there's no real testing. In fact, this applies to any card on the ban list. However, since they were banned at one point, we have the presumption that all of the banned cards are unfair. The burden of proof lies on anyone who argues that they are fair. By my measure, the format is already at a good place with Ancient Tomb and City of Traitors.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Vintage has it's pillars of the Power Nine, Workshop, and Bazaar. These three pillars separate Vintage from Legacy. There are other smaller differences like Will, Time Vault, etc., but the three that set the stage for the power and speed of Vintage are the aforementioned three.
Once one of those pillars transcends into Legacy then Legacy starts to feel and play like Vintage. This is why people panicked and overreacted with the printing of Temporal Mastery.
We can discuss unbanning of anything from Mana Drain to Tolarian Academy, but not these pillars.
I could sit here and tell you how fair and fitting it would be to unban Mox Ruby. It is only one mana boost, it fits reds color flavor, and blah blah blah. But the truth of the matter is everyone would pack four in every deck there is because of the power level of the card.
I(and everyone else) fail to see how a land that taps for three mana is fair in Legacy. Comparing it to lackluster two mana producing lands is just disingenuous.
I think Earthcraft is pretty safe, a couple of cards like Mind's Desire,Mind Twist, and Yawmoth's Bargain are limited by casting cost, and even Library of Alexandria is safer than workshop. At two cards per year, that's a a couple of years of buffer.
FWIW, Mental Misstep is arguably fair since every deck can play it, but it should probably stay on the list. A much more salient question is, will 'card x' warp the format in a bad way if it comes off the list?How the fuck do you prove a card is fair?
There is some combination of reliability, resilience, and speed that is unacceptable (most recently seen with the Flash power level changes.)
You know what other cards are pillars in Vintage? Dark Ritual and Merchant Scroll. Yet not exactly cracking Legacy. Weird.
And are you honestly suggesting that Mishra's Workshop would be played in every deck? Because that's laughable. It's playable in exactly one deck. That deck has crucial weaknesses to such cards as Noble Hierarch and especially the phenomenon known as "being on the draw," and is actually primarily good at preying on combo decks- which make up a fairly small fraction of the Legacy metagame. And some, like Sneak and Show, don't necessarily care about either a Trinisphere or a Chalice at 1.
If Ancient Tomb is "lackluster" as you say, then it's non-obvious why Mishra's Workshop, which is an upgrade on Tomb in one deck only and unplayable in other Tomb-based decks, is evidently busted.
Generally a card is banned either because it either creates a dominant archetype or it; is a pre-requisite in nearly every serious deck. It can be demonstrated why, say, Time Walk, Skullclamp, and Mox Ruby fit into the former pile and cards like Flash or Channel fit into the second.
What I want is for us to be able to discuss cards on the banned list that have historically been very powerful and ask whether they are actually too powerful for Legacy, a format which, after all, has a wide variety of answers.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
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