@ mono
I would say 1/2 the games I have played with miracles, JMS is usually the win con so its tough for me to accept 0 copies as being correct. Also, no terminus in the main deck?
It seems difficult to beat cavern of souls, whether it be from goblins or maverick. maverick in general goes from a good matchup to not so much without terminusOriginally Posted by Mono_Thematic
Matt Bevenour in real life
@Mono: There is nothing wrong with the idea of "maximizing the number of active cards by turn 3" but then I would remove Senseis Divining Top, Counterbalance and Entreat the Angels alltogether and instead play a blue-white tempo deck with Delver of Secrets (you have many Instants and Sorceries), Stoneforge Mystic and Daze.
When playing with Miracles, I think Jace is one of "the" key cards alsongside Top. Playing Jace, brainstorming just to put Terminus back, then fogging the opponent because he attacks Jace instead of you followed by clearing the board is an acceptable sequence. It's even better with Top in play because with one more mana you can wrath them during the attack step and get to keep Jace, which is even better.
If you can keep Vial off the board, CB is okay against them. I think the downfall in CB here is the multiple steps you have to go through to get it set up. You need Top, CB, and a two drop on top--which takes time to get set up. A heavy two drop list in Miracles is only eight or nine cards. My from my experience, the best plan is to bring in extra removal. I generally do well against Merfolks using the "added removal" route. This weekend at SCG KC I went -3 CB, -2 Pierce, +3 Path, +1 Terminus, +1 Clique, and won all my post-board games against Merfolk.
If you can deal with vial, counterbalance can lock them out of the game in the later stages. I think a good number of counterbalances after board is two versus merfolk. I never want force of will after board. The card disadvantage is a factor and I board in too many non blue cards to warrant playing FOW. With more than 20 blue cards I can see your point Of Keeping force of will.
This is what I'd currently bring to any open meta. The lack of CS and Clique might be notable. I've decided to cut them to be able to max out Terminus, Pierce and Jace - and thus enhancing all: early game power (Pierce), creature hate (Terminus #4) and wincons (Jace). I could see another land (#24) as the 61st card. Apart from that I'm pretty happy with the current setup.
4 BS
4 Top
4 STP
4 FOW
4 Pierce
4 Jace
4 Terminus
3 CB
3 SCM
2 EtA
1 EE
4 F. Strand
1 Delta
1 Tarn
1 Rainforest
1 Arid Mesa
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Karakas
4 Tundra
3 Volc
SB:
3 REB
2 Peacekeeper / Guilded Drake
2 PtE
2 Grafidgger
2 S. Extraction
2 Disenchant
0-1 Pithing Needle
0-1 CB
0-2 meta slots
Hi,
I've been testing the deck a litle, and I can say I have some conclusions I'd like to share and I'd like to receive feedback:
I definately going to play black as third color:
It has one of the bests polivalent cards - vindicate as cost 3.
Vindicate has served me to:
- Win mirrors destroying Jaces and c.b.
- Destroying annoying lands
- destroying vials and annouing creatures
- can be played again by snapcaster.
- Completes the 4 costs 3 needed for this archetype
Also and the main goal of playing Black was:
- Answer vs Goblind and Merfolks, both tough match ups in the name of Enginnered Plague, this card by its own can destroy 4 entire archetypes: merfolks, gobbos , elfs and faeries. and also makes puzzle for maverick match ups. DEfinately it is a Must Card in Side at least in this archetype, I even don't know how I've been surviving so long withouth it...
And the last point and likely the mos controversial:
HAs anybody tested 3 senseis instead 4?
I remember the ITF archetype made by David Gearheart, which had 4 c.b and 3 senseis. configuration I actually run from the begining of the deck, the idea is:
- Miracle cards you have in hand you NEED or jace or Brainstorm and NOT senseis.
- Thats why I play 4 jace 3 senseis.
- I really can't think in this deck playing 3 jace, you need much more jace than senseis for miracle, how many times you have preferred not to fetch because on top you had a terminus and still drawing shit? for this case - you draw miracles and next cast jace or brainstorm.
Let me know your thinkings!
First of all I see red as the superior color. Our deck cannot capitalize Discard as Esper can. Yes, Vindicate is nice, but do we really need? As mentioned earlier your Counterbalance is no lock-piece, its a card-advantage-piece. I'd rather counter every spell against RUG/UR with my love curve than try to counter CC1-4. Therefore having CC3 is nice, shouldnt be the goal though.
Plague...well that card is fine vs Goblins and can help in the Maverick-MU ( but we do not need help there ). But what? Plague vs Merfolk? You aint gonna kill a single Merfolk..all you gonna do is survive a turn longer...wow... Red Elemental Blast is boss here. Not Plague.
3 Sensei's?
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what? I mean I'd play 6 Sensei's Diving Top. All I want in this deck is to resolve a T1 Top. If this is done, the game is going well most of the time. Why do you wanna cut it? Dont do it, please dont.
I agree on the point of 4 Jace's. I play 4 too. Theyre beast.
My list for reference:
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
2 Arid Mesa
3 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
4 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Terminus
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
2 Counterspell
3 Counterbalance
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
Sideboard:
4 Surgical Extraction
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Peacekeeper
2 Disenchant
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Humility
1 Terminus
Greetings
Yeah, there's really almost no disadvantage to running 4 tops, and it definitely is one of the best cards. This deck likes to drag the game out and for that type of strategy top is one of the best cards you can have. It makes Countertop more consistent, Miracles more consistent, huge value over time, and gives huge value to shuffle effects. Additionally, getting 2 tops is almost never going to hurt you much. It means that if one of your tops was countered, you can play a second one. Even if you're stuck with 2 tops in play, it's not that hard to find a shuffle effect and shuffle away one of the tops.
Without peacekeeper, how often do you beat dredge with four surgical extraction?
I was considering leyline of singularity as a sideboard card against the Miracle control mirror. Leyline is a strong card type against stackmanipulation/control decks, and singularity deals with entreat the angels pretty well. It also allows you to play a bunch of karakas, which help your jace resolve against gaddock teeg, or clique lock. someone out. I don't think people would board in disenchants very quickly in the mirror (not expecting leyline) and getting explosives on 4 is not even possible in many versions of the deck. You could still make just 1 Entreat the Angels token, but it would be prone to Karakas. The only real win condition left is Jace the Mindsculptor. Extra copies of leyline should be brainstormed/pitched to FoW to control the stack and force a Jace through.
What do you guys think about maindeck karakas sideboard leyline of singularity as a plan against miracle control (whether that is mirror or non-mirror)?
I've agreed with pretty much everything you've said so far in this thread; you've a very firm grasp of the goals this deck is trying to attain, but you're actually underscoring how good Top is and heavily, heavily underrating how good having multiple Tops in play is, even going so far as to imply such an occurrence is simply neutral or even slightly unpleasant. Having multiple Tops in play is actually incredibly dope.
But yeah, play four Tops. Do it.
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I don't think I've dropped a match to Dredge yet--probably played it 10ish times. Terminus is reaaaally good here. I also tend to focus the spot removal on Ichorid. Post-board I'm usually operating off of 4 Swords, 3 Path, 4 Terminus, 3 Spell Pierce, 4 FOW, 3 Surgical, 3-5 Flash creatures (Snapcaster/Clique). So, I don't think Peacekeeper is critical here.
In the list above, 3x EE, 4x Terminus, 4x Surgical, plus spot removal and Pierces/FOW probably makes it pretty favorable.
Man i would run 4 peacekeepers just to stop those swarming decks right now. Humility isn't THAT necessary.
I was testing against it 4 Fow 4 pierce 4 surgical 5 flash creatures 4 terminus 4 Stp and wasn't winning. I sided out jace and counterbalance. I could side in engineered explosives and path to exile, but I don't know what to take out... What am I doing wrong? The only games I win are the ones that I draw double extraction or scm extraction.
@Guy: Are you using the list on the prior page still? Grafdigger's Cage is sort of rough for you, since it shuts off your Snapcaster. I've never liked that interaction with this deck.
Somethings I've done to improve the game:
Ask for a stop at the end of all their draw phase (after they dredge) to evaluate the game state. This gives you a chance to respond to their graveyard tricks (Cabal Therapy sac's, Dread Return, etc.) before they can do them. This also a good time to STP or Path an Ichorid, or shoot a 3rd creature off the board to prevent a Dread Return.
If they think pretty hard about a hand or mulligan, I usually counterspell the first thing they throw on the board. Even keeping an LED off the board can be good for you, since that prevents some sort of chain effect off Lootings.
My main targets for Surgical are usually Bridge and Ichorid, since they are the core of their deck. However, they only run 11-12 dredges. I've won a few games by targeting a Grave Troll on turn 1 with Surgical, and then hitting a Stinkweed Imp or something on the second turn with Snapcaster flashback.
The dredge MU is fine imo.
We have quite a few tools, and double surgical (with SCM) on narco and ichorid means they have to jump through hoops to keep even a slight chance of winning.
What's the best approach to take against the UR combo decks? Mainly Omniscience.. They have way too many protection, maybe we should pack ORings/Humility for that matchup in particular? I haven't had success with either splash against that kind of deck, specially the lists packing triple overmaster MD.
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