All B/R update speculation.

[Justin]

Couldn't agree with Lemnear more. A format that falls apart without 4x STP is just as broken as one that falls apart without 4x GY hate.

Only someone who likes Vintage would say this. Vintage is the only format that doesn't require maindeck creature removal. Every serious constructed format from Legacy to Block requires maindeck creature. This is also true of limited formats. 95%-plus of Magic players are fine with this. You and Lemnear are either part of that very small minority or one or both of you are trolling.

Bottom line is that maindeck creature hate is normal in Magic and accepted and preferred by a huge majority of players. However, most players don't like playing in formats in which they have to maindeck hate for graveyard, artifacts, enchantments, etc. in order to compete. I'll provide an example. Remember when Affinity was running roughshod over Standard? Every green deck had to run a mandatory four Oxidize in order to compete. Most players hated this and most of Affinity's key cards were banned from the format. When Wizards did the Scars of Mirrodin block, they learned from this lesson and were very careful not to allow artifact decks to be too powerful that this would happen again.

Imagine and situation in which graveyard strategies were dominating Legacy. You would have to cut four slots from most of your decks in order to jam in maindeck graveyard hate. Some decks with really tight lists would not be able to do this and would no longer be viable. Lots of players would get pissed off. That's why it's important that the banned list prevents this from happening.

[joemauer]

What a silly argument that has developed in this thread.

Firstly, "graveyard strategies" generally use creatures with few exceptions like Yawgmoth's Will and Past in Flames.

Secondly, why all the hate for graveyard strategies? U/G madness and dredge decks were/are some of my favorite decks. These decks helped weaken discard as a whole, fundamentally shifting the game while keeping things fresh. Also, I like these decks because they break the traditional rules and conceptions of Magic: the Gathering.


In regards to SotF being unbanned: I am a little surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but the deck(that caused it's banning) could easily win without said enchantment or the graveyard. The deck was a very good aggro-control deck with a quick, versatile, and powerful combo mixed inside it.

The fact the enchantment SotF could switch from a combo kill into a tool box engine whenever needed made it even more difficult to battle. Some games cards like Extirpate were dead cards against the deck and other games cards like Swords to Plowshares were dead cards against the deck.

[Fizzeler]

I still advocate unbanning Earthcraft and Mind Twist, discard isn't even that good in Legacy right now (seriously how many decks still play Hymn To Tourach?) and Earthcraft restricts you to basic lands, unless we are really worried about Squirrel Nest breaking the format

[lordofthepit]

In regards to SotF being unbanned: I am a little surprised no one has mentioned this yet, but the deck(that caused it's banning) could easily win without said enchantment or the graveyard. The deck was a very good aggro-control deck with a quick, versatile, and powerful combo mixed inside it.

The fact the enchantment SotF could switch from a combo kill into a tool box engine whenever needed made it even more difficult to battle. Some games cards like Extirpate were dead cards against the deck and other games cards like Swords to Plowshares were dead cards against the deck.

This is correct. G/W Survival was basically a Maverick deck that had a 1-card "I win" button.

That being said, it might be more tolerable in today's metagame with Scavenging Ooze and Surgical Extraction around, but I don't think the DCI will allow it back anytime soon.

[Lord Seth]

When Wizards did the Scars of Mirrodin block, they learned from this lesson and were very careful not to allow artifact decks to be too powerful that this would happen again.

Indeed. Instead they enabled Caw-Blade, which was even more dominant than Affinity.

[xfxf]

I'm expecting something like a Mystical Tutor unban or a Show and Tell ban. The thing is Show and Tell isn't suppressing non blue decks or fair decks (yesterday's SCG final for a very legitimate example) but it kind of invalidated any other type of combo. There are a billion Show and Tell decks around (Sneak&Show, OmniTell, Academy Rector, Hive Mind, Dream Halls, Reanimator, Tin Fins) but decks like Storm, High Tide, Enchantress, Dredge, Elves have been pushed out to lower tiers. As far as combo decks go I think diversity is lost. It's just a matter of building the right Show and Tell deck. Non-blue/fair decks have enough tools to battle with all kinds of broken stuff so I think a little adjustment in that department could be nice.

[Zombie]

A big problem is that the bombs are not very strong anymore. They just read "win the game" instead. Cheating a bomb into play is somewhat interesting. Pressing the I Win Lols button less so.

[Dzra]

The reason most of the successful combo decks lately are based on Show and Tell isn't because Show and Tell is so much better than the other combos. Show and Tell is just more resilient to the fair decks. Thalia, Spell Snare/Pierce, and the speed of the format in general makes Ad Nauseam and High Tide decks bad right now. Ooze and Surgical keep a damper on the GY strategies.

Unless Show and Tell becomes the best overall strategy by a large margin, I don't see any reason to ban it. Playing a 3cmc card as part of a 2-3 card combo that likely wins the game... compared to the Survival days, Show and Tell isn't broken at all.

I wouldn't be too opposed to testing the waters for Mystical Tutor again. The popularity and versatility of Surgical might help fight Mystical, but without Misstep around it'll likely still be too good.

[xfxf]

A big problem is that the bombs are not very strong anymore. They just read "win the game" instead. Cheating a bomb into play is somewhat interesting. Pressing the I Win Lols button less so.

I think currently it is at such a level that both players just lol and rush onto the next game after those I win moments and it even becomes dull for the combo player after the first 10 games. Also think about Vintage, you get a high from putting an 11/11 in play on turn 1-2, getting infinite turns or putting a Jace into play on turn 1-2. In Legacy you can do all those, but you put a 15/15 into play instead of a tiny 11/11. I'm not saying it's broken for the format, there are decent countermeasures.. It's just that the plays are so easy and so ridiculous in terms of power level it's not even fun anymore. There's no incentive or any real reason to play any other form of combo. All the combo decks in a format shouldn't be reduced to a single card.

[GradStudentGuy]

Show and Tell is fine. People just need to adapt their decks. When your deck is about a single key card its much easier to fight. Running things like humility and meddling mage really hurts these deck as many of them dont play any removal. Also the mana base for some of these Know and Tell decks are terrible. Back to Basics and Blood Moon need to see more play.

[dschalter]

If i recall the fundamental Description of Magic: The Gathering it's all about a battle between 2 magicians that fight each other with spells and summon allies (creatures), enchantments, and artifacts to achieve victory.

Non is written that creatures have any higher standing than any other Card type. Fact is, that MaRo made it his Personal 7-year-crusade to boost creatures to be on-par with the Old-framed eternal staples, which is a Good idea in general because creatures sucked back then (psychatog was considered One of the best creatures ever printed back then; gives a hint)

But another fact is that at some points he and the other developers did too much. Emrakul as a card is a joke like griselbrand, jin, nacatl, titans, Delver, tarmogoyf (which outclassed EVERY creature printed before, discussed 4 banning and is now outclassed by delver or KotR; hilarious) etc.

Impressions:

Back then - today

Brainstorm - preordain
Mana Drain - cancel
Yawmoth's Will - Past in flames

Kird Ape - Wild nacatl
Serendib efreet - delver of secrets
Juzaam Djinn - Tombstalker
Elvish Warrior/Lhurgoyf - tarmogoyf


@kiblast
I want to take out your post 4 dinner

First of all, buffing creatures wasn't anyone's "personal crusade," it was a collective decision made by a large number of people in R&D over a period of time. If you want to blame anyone I'd pick Randy Buehler (he told R&D to stop making creatures terrible when they hired him). Furthermore, the reality is that most players prefer games that revolve around creature combat. The immense popularity of Limited is a strong tribute to that, as is the increased popularity of the game during the time changes were made.

Also, talking about Survival dominating because people weren't adapting is silly. The truth is more the opposite- where it wasn't dominating, people weren't switching to as much it and thus it didn't put up the same numbers (that and a somewhat different existing metagame).

[Lemnear]

Only someone who likes Vintage would say this. Vintage is the only format that doesn't require maindeck creature removal.

Bottom line is that maindeck creature hate is normal in Magic and accepted and preferred by a huge majority of players.

If you would have any clue about Vintage you would know that most Vintage decks ran on the back of creatures: tinker-bots, artifact-creatures, Bob, salvager, trygon predator, snapcaster mage, painter's servant, oath-creatures and many more. There is a reason Lightning Bolt had become a "vintage staple" to deal with that.

What is "normal" to people is defined by habitude. If you play a Lot of vintage, your perception of "normal" shifts towards dealing with Lots of different cardtypes. If you play a Lot of limited you maybe won't ever realize the Need for enchantment removal or the like.

This doesn't mean I'm wrong or that People really "prefer" that narrows (that is only a generalized opinion of you atm) of Limited (creatures only) and Legacy (creatures considered fair and instants/sorceries unfair).

You try to negate my critic by just pointing to "habits" which is MY main point lol

The immense popularity of Limited is a strong tribute to that, as is the increased popularity of the game during the time changes were made.

Also, talking about Survival dominating because people weren't adapting is silly. The truth is more the opposite- where it wasn't dominating, people weren't switching to as much it and thus it didn't put up the same numbers (that and a somewhat different existing metagame).

What? Limited "immense popular"?? Isn't it too easy to compare M:TG and it's player base between that 7-Year cycle not considering the influence of Social Habits/standards, networks (i-net), cash availability, card frame, kids-appealing-Art, ads, youth culture during that time? To say that M:TG only became more popular among people <30 because of the creature powercreep is off reality.

Couldn't the fact, that People rather switch to a winning list (Common practice) than Tuning their deck for the new contender in the metagame, explained by lazyness? There is a reason why the question "who's List are you playing?" is the First question i face once people realize my deck's strategy... don't Tell me you Never heared that one

[xfxf]

I still think that there might be an alternate reality where running 4 maindeck graveyard hate is the same thing as running 4 maindeck creature removal, where street food is rat burgers and people use three seashells instead of toilet papers but over here such abstract notions are probably limited to a very small subset of players.

[Lemnear]

Maybe I should recall the basic question asked:

"Is Survival a candidate to revalue for unbanning with all the New and effective graveyard-hate printed recently?"

The snap-reaction was: "no, because it would require Legacy decks to consider maindeck graveyard/enchantment-solutions which is Not acceptable. However, running 8+ dedicated creature-hate slots is."

I questioned this mindset and all response pointed to habits and tradition which is a two-edged blade having Decks like reanimator in mind with a very iconic history

[RJM]

...where street food is rat burgers and people use three seashells instead of toilet papers but over here such abstract notions are probably limited to a very small subset of players.

Haha, dammit, no wonder my stomach hurts almost as much as my butt.

[dunk]

Wowow, some guys are really talking about unbanning mystical? Never going to happen, unbanning that card would turn legacy into combo and control only aka unbalancing the format. When the card got banned I was also mourning first, but in the long run it was the correct decision. Wotc's argumentation about banning it sucked back then, but I guess they just didn't wanted to tell us about how good Show and Tell might become and that someday we may get miracles.

[slave]

So why has Tinker been banned and SHow and Tell remained?

The effect of these cards are pretty similar, albiet SnT being global is no doubt what has saved it from being banned I assume.
Snt is such a WIN card in a deck made for it - I honestly can't remember seeing many times when the player casting SnT ever got bitten badly by it or completely screwed by it, I suppose now with Omniscience that may change things a little.

So is there any chance Tinker will be back?

[Jenni]

So why has Tinker been banned and SHow and Tell remained?

The effect of these cards are pretty similar, albiet SnT being global is no doubt what has saved it from being banned I assume.
Snt is such a WIN card in a deck made for it - I honestly can't remember seeing many times when the player casting SnT ever got bitten badly by it or completely screwed by it, I suppose now with Omniscience that may change things a little.

So is there any chance Tinker will be back?

The Key difference is that, with show and tell, you have to have the other part of the "I win" combo in hand, with tinker, if you have any artifact in play, you can tutor up the other card. Basically, this means the tinker deck is a lot more consistent, since even a Pithing needle or tormond's crypt can become a blightsteel colossus.

Tinker, however, allows you to play, say:
turn 1: Island, CMC=0 Artifact
turn2: Sol Land, Tinker, Blightsteel
turn3: win

Not just that, but tinker also allows you to accelerate your mana (eg. by finding a grim monolith, Thran Dynamo, or mirrodin artifact land), and find utility cards like chalice of the void (which,since your deck has a fairly high average mana cost, can be played at 0 or 1,and heavily disrupts an opponent).

Eg. with tinker you can do things like:
turn 1: island, chalice of the void at 0
turn 2: sol land, tinker -> thran dynamo, metalworker
turn 3: Mindslaver, Activate Mind slaver.

Basically, it generates absurd amounts of mana in the early turns, and lets you do powerful things very early in the game. The mindslaver example I gave is actually a fairly mediocre way to use your tinker, you can use it to do more devastating things as well

Basically, Tinker is a remarkably powerful card, and very easy to abuse.

[dontbiteitholmes]

So why has Tinker been banned and SHow and Tell remained?

The effect of these cards are pretty similar, albiet SnT being global is no doubt what has saved it from being banned I assume.
Snt is such a WIN card in a deck made for it - I honestly can't remember seeing many times when the player casting SnT ever got bitten badly by it or completely screwed by it, I suppose now with Omniscience that may change things a little.

So is there any chance Tinker will be back?

I'll just quote myself here.

What? How does Show and Tell even come close to Tinker? You guys are so mental sometimes.

With Show and Tell you need to run 7-8 S&T targets that you will never hardcast. With Tinker you need to run maybe one or two.
Show and Tell lets the opponent put something into play as well. Sometimes that card is going to blow you out, Tinker is one sided.
Running artifacts is not a disadvantage. All artifacts are going to do something good on their own anyways, not just be a useless card to activate Tinker.
Show and Tell is a combo you have to build the entire deck around. Tinker decks are going to have a plan B that involves winning without casting Tinker.

I could go on but why bother? If you guys can't figure out why Tinker is still banned there is no hope for you.

You are making way too many assumptions about the way Tinker would be played in Legacy. Tinker doesn't have to be alternate Show and Tell it can be used as a finisher in a control deck, it can be a transformational sideboard in any deck that runs artifacts (cough Tendrils), as well as the combo deck you assume is it's only function (which is probably the worst use of it overall). You don't have to build around Tinker the way you do around S&T. It takes up significantly less slots in the deck, the entire package can be fit into a sideboard, the artifacts you will be saccing do something good on their own and are not just mindless combo pieces, ect.

[Lemnear]

Jesus Christ ... The stupid tinker-discussion was about 3 Pages before *facepalm*