Oh look, another "Let's shit on Modern" thread.
This is the new "ban Force of Will" on The Source.
With one difference. The "Ban Force of Will"-Threads were wrong alltogether.Originally Posted by Phoenix Ignition
The"Let's shit on Modern"-Threads, are true. Modern is shit.
Greetings
Modern is fun if you can't find anyone to play legacy. It is NOT however an eternal format. They should let the damn commander cards in, and update the ban list to shutdown the unfair cards they see fit. Scavenging ooze would be great in modern as would flusterstorm.
Legacy is fine.
westcoast degeneracy
You're free to start a "Modern circlejerk" thread in the Modern subforum if you can find two more people who play the format.
There is already full Proxy Legacy Tournaments in London. It gets the players in. If other places start doing the same there becomes less and less reason to actually own the real cards.
My Legacy Decks of choice: Pox, Miracles, D&T or Lands.
Online Trading Reference Checker
So much passion in this thread.
I think it's over so no need to say anything else except for.
Abolish reserve list.
Profit.
Formats thrive.
Players have a great time.
We all have fun.
Yay!
"I made a Redguard that looks like Kimbo Slice. He wrecks peoples' shit. And dragons." - Bignasty197
Eventually dual lands get reprinted. They can fake any card they want with a clever clone but they will never replace the dual lands.
The same goes for the eternal staples like, force of will and swords to plowshares. Functional reprints would be a way for them to say "we didn't reprint the card."
These cards will even be Standard legal because everyone wants to play with duals and force of wills, this will actually force them to "balance the colors" and print cards to fight the cards that they know are broken.
This will happen eventually or they will just have to create a new modern in ten years because the modern "staples" don't get reprinted and people start complaining that modern is too expensive. see tarmogoyf and dark confidant.
"eggs... why'd it have to be eggs"
Full proxy? Wow :P. I started up the local legacy scene in Trondheim, Norway. We allow 10 proxxies (as it gets players into it), yet people still have to invest some money into it.
You do that Force of Will is not on the reserve list?
Truth is Wizards doesn't like reprinting Legacy staples. Reprinting Legacy staples makes Legacy more affordable. Wizards wants people to be priced out of Legacy because Legacy doesn't sell new packs like their love child Standard.
Legacy for Wizards of the Coast is like some woman that was beautiful when they got together but as their relationship goes on she grows uglier and Wizards keeps losing interest. It has gotten to the point where Wizards only goes on some forced dates(prints some cards for Legacy) and buys a random Anniversary present(Land Tax).
I am one of those that wizard totaly fail to make money on, however it looks like I am am exception.
At least when I look at those who played at the pre-release yesterday.
If you are an adult you have the resources to have something like legacy as main interest, and can affordplay on-line or draft, etc because it's fun.
Kill legacy and you also kill the interest of these customers.
Actually wizards make more money on these people in the long run; many quit for a while
And then get back after a few years. Kids don't.
For the record, I had no intention of making a "shit on Modern" thread. And btw, on MTGSalvation, the Modern forum gets 110% - 120% of the traffic the Legacy forum gets. I do not see any evidence of it being a dead format beyond the words I see on this Legacy website.
But I really only design for/play Legacy. I hope it lasts long enough for me to be an old man before I can't find a game.
"Anyone who is capable of getting themselves made President should on no account be allowed to do the job."
"Politicians are like diapers. They should be changed often and for the same reason."
"Governing is too important to be left to people as silly as politicians."
"Politicians were mostly people who'd had too little morals and ethics to stay lawyers."
Yeah, except functional reprints aren't allowed by the Reserved List. Unless you mean something like Reverberate, which technically isn't a functional reprint.
This claim is...odd. You say create a new Modern in ten years because staples don't get reprinted. On what basis do you assume that? While Wizards ideally would have gotten to it faster, they do seem to be reprinting staples now. Your statement is based on an assumption that you haven't backed up.This will happen eventually or they will just have to create a new modern in ten years because the modern "staples" don't get reprinted and people start complaining that modern is too expensive. see tarmogoyf and dark confidant.This is a lot of speculation without real basis.
What you like to call speculation, I like to call logical thinking.
I like modern. It's nice to have some alternative format if you want to play Magic, but are sick and tired of Legacy ( and obv enjoy having more than just the last 2 sets to play with... ). And yeah, legacy can be pretty tiresome sometimes...
Anyway, to answer the thread:
As long as we guys and gals play, and as long as TO's are organizing events, nothing can happen to the format... unless at some point, where Duals will be worth a bazilion and theres less people starting than leaving. So I guess there will be a decline in the next 3-5 years, pretty much depending on the value of duals.
To fix that problem I hope there will be perfectly made fakes of duals by then - yeah, I really think this is the only way to fix that problem in the long term future.
Humphrey is always correct.
I really, really hope you're wrong but this got me thinking. Maybe I'm optimistic in thinking wizards cares as about their players as much as money, even eternal players that don't make them money. I think they're more interested in getting as many people as possible to play any form of magic because that's how you get most people to play. Friend, brother etc.. And once you're going to pick a format, it's likely you'll try out other formats as well. And although they lose some of their costumers to Legacy and EDH, some of them will move in and out of standard and play drafts so they open packs too. Wizards can't be held responsible for the rise in popularity of legacy but let's hope they step in to help us, even though as legacy players, we're not making them a lot of money. In the big picture we're more important than a guy ONLY playing limited because legacy is easier to learn through than everchanging limited. Expanding is indirect profit and is better than squeezing money out of your playerbase. Also, legacy crowd is way better than standard crowd. You want to learn a new game by a guy playing legacy because that guy is a cool guy and why the fuck not? You're definitely not going to sit down with that douchebag who plays standard and doesn't give a fuck about anything except winning, and let him teach you magic. Especially kitchentable players are an underrated playerbase. They play simple magic, with creatures and lands really, and they buy packs too. They can teach you the game in five minutes and it's fun to kill shit using dragons.
Legacy will never die, whether that's the intention Wizards has or not.
The price of duals is a matter of supply and demand. The supply is limited, but the demand continues to increase because the player base continues to grow. At a certain peak, the format may become inaccessible, and the player base will stop growing. It may even decline. However, as the player base declines, the demand for duals declines, their availability increases, and the prices drop. At a certain point, the format becomes accessible again, and the cycle continues.
There are enough players in the world that enjoy the Legacy format, and there are enough duals in existence, to support Legacy indefinitely to some degree.
Most Legacy tournaments are supported by third parties, not Wizards directly. As long as there is enough demand for Legacy, and therefore money to be made by these third party event organizers, Legacy will continue to exist to some degree. Wizards can screw up the format in other ways though, such as removing it as a format altogether, destroying the format with horrible banned/unbanned list changes, no longer printing Legacy viable cards, etc. I don't get why they would do that though, when it would do them more harm than good.
I don't think this will happen exactly like you're envisioning, it doesn't take into account 1) people who purchase the cards for investment/collector reasons rather than to play sanctioned magic, 2) EDH players, and 3) that desirability increases over time.
I mean, the Vintage player base has been reduced significantly, yet the price of P9 has only increased. Granted, there are around 300,000 of each dual land and only about 20,000 of each piece of power--but I think this demonstrates that there isn't necessarily a correlation between demand/availability and cost.
To use an example from another nerdy collectible: there aren't as many comic book collectors/speculators as there were in the 90's, yet the prices of the high-ticket books (X-Men #1 and so forth) has only increased since then.
I think the fact that there are 300,000 of each of dual means that Legacy's death will be slow to come, but it will absolutely arrive. Let's say it takes, I don't know, twenty more years until we're paying $500 for a dual land. If that's the case, not a lot of people will want a $2000 set of duals to play with--but the duals will at that point be forty years old and will have even more potential as a collector's item then they do now. I'm not convinced that whether or not there is an active Legacy player base will matter at that point. I hope I'm wrong, but really, if nothing else the price will rise high enough that people may not want to play their duals simply because it's not worth risking damaging their collectibles.
I didn't mean a dramatic decline in prices or anything, but if Legacy has (for arguments sake) 20,000 players, and that number drops to 5,000 players who dump their dual lands and switch to Modern, there's going to be a noticeable increase in the amount of dual lands available. That will have an affect on price, to some degree.I don't think this will happen exactly like you're envisioning, it doesn't take into account 1) people who purchase the cards for investment/collector reasons rather than to play sanctioned magic, 2) EDH players, and 3) that desirability increases over time.
Just so I'm clear, I'm not using the 20,000 and 5,000 examples as any sort of accurate number. I'm using it as an example only.
Then let's see re-examine your claim bit by bit.
"Truth is Wizards doesn't like reprinting Legacy staples."
Thing is, cards in general aren't reprinted, Legacy staple or not. You need to show more actual support that Legacy staples in particular are the ones getting shafted.
For example, Force of Will hasn't been reprinted. But (ignoring cards on the Reserved List), neither have Aesthir Glider, Agent of Stromgald, Arcane Denia, Astrolabe, Awesome Presence, Balduvian Dead, Balduvian War-Makers, Benthic Explorers, Bestial Fury, Bounty of the Hunt, Burnout, Carrier Pigeons, Casting of Bones, Contagion, Death Spark, Diseased Vermin, Elvish Spirit Guide, Energy Arc, Enslaved Scout, Errand of Duty, Fevered Strength, Foresight, Fyndhorn Druid, Gift of the Woods, Gorilla Berserkers, Gorilla Shaman, Gorilla War Cry, Inheritance, Insidious Bookworms, Juniper Order Advocate, Kjeldoran Escort, Kjeldoran Home Guard, Kjeldoran Pride, Krovikan Plague, Lat-Nam's Legacy, Lim-Dul's High Guard, Lim-Dul's Paladin, Lim-Dul's Vault, Martyrdom, Mishra's Groundbreaker, Misinformation, Nature's Blessing, Nature's Chosen, Noble Steeds, Phantasmal Fiend, Phantasmal Sphere, Phyrexian Boon, Phyrexian War Beast, Primitive Justice, Pyrokinesis, Reinforcements, Royal Herbalist, Scarab of the Unseen, Scars of the Veteran, School of the Unseen, Seasoned Tactician, Shield Sphere, Sol Grail, Soldevi Adnate, Soldevic Heretic, Soldevi Sage, Soldevi Sentry, Soldevi Steam Beast, Soldier of Fortune, Spiny Starfish, Stench of Decay, Storm Elemental, Stromgald Spy, Suffocation, Surge of Strength, Taste of Paradise, Undergrowth, Unlikely Alliance, Urza's Engine, Varchild's Crusader, Veteran's Voice, Viscerid Armor, Viscerid Drone, Whip Vine, Whirling Catapult, Wild Aesthir, Yavimaya Ancients, and Yavimaya Ants, all also from Aliances.
How many of those can honestly be called Legacy staples? There's Elvish Spirit Guide (maybe, depends on how strictly you define "staple"), and...uh...yeah, that's all I'm seeing.
To back up your claim legitimately, you need to show that there is a noticeably higher percentage of non-Reserved "Legacy staples" not being reprinted than there is of the card pool in general. But you haven't done that, you've just said "they don't like to" without backing it up.
This actually did make me a little more curious about those percentages, so I decided to try to make an estimate of Legacy staples being reprinted. Of course, much depends on what a staple IS. For the purpose of this, I decided to take all of the cards from the Top 8 at the most recent SCG Legacy Open. After that, I tried to remove cards that fit one or more of the following criteria:
1) Cards that are on the Reserve List. Can't reprint what you can't reprint.
2) Cards whose initial printings came in Zendikar or later. When it comes to more recent cards, it makes far more sense if they haven't been reprinted yet.
3) Basic lands.
For a card to count as reprinted, it must have been reprinted in Mercadian Masques or later (I choose Mercadian Masques because it was the first set to no longer have the Reserved List...a bit arbitrary, but it works). After all, even the original dual lands count as reprinted, as they were in several sets. So the reprint must have occurred no earlier than Mercadian Masques.
According to my calculations, 40% of them have been reprinted (if we count judge promos, you can bump that up a little more). I must stress this is an imperfect way to measure it, but that took long enough to figure out. Now, let's look back at the Alliances set. If we remove all Reserved List cards, there are 101 cards in the set. Of those, 13 have been printed in a set after Mercadian Masques. That's 12.6%. Even if we decide to count all reprints in any other non-online set, I believe that comes to 20, which is just under 20%. Using this admittedly quite imperfect comparison, that would actually result in the Legacy staple reprints occurring with greater regularity.
Clearly, there are far better ways to go about this (the ideal way would be to come up with a definite definition of Legacy staple, count up all the non-Reserved cards that make that up and compare the number that have been reprinted, then compare this to the reprints on cards in general). However, you didn't go about it in any way, you simply stated "they don't like to" without any backing. This means your first claim, which is the basis for your entire argument, is lacking in support. I'm pretty sure that in terms of logic, if you base something on a particular claim, you need to back up the claim. You have not yet. I'm not seeing the logic.
"Reprinting Legacy staples makes Legacy more affordable."
This seems for the most part inarguable. Continuing...
"Wizards wants people to be priced out of Legacy because Legacy doesn't sell new packs like their love child Standard."
...and then you jump to this. Even ignoring the aforementioned problems with your first statement, I fail to see the "logical thinking" that leads to this. You don't actually connect this to the second statement. You just make the claim that Wizards doesn't like to reprint Legacy staples, then say one thing that a reprint would do, then assume it must be because of that one thing. That's not logical thinking, that's jumping to conclusions based on blind speculation. There's not a real connection here in your logic. You don't give any reason to believe that the reason you throw out is the correct reason. You just throw it out and assume it is. And that's the baseless speculation I pointed out.
So yes, this seems far more speculation than logical thinking on your part.
And that right there would be the final straw for me. I don't have many altered cards, but what I do have is rather (in)famous in the game world now. My fame (or infamy) has spread far and wide, and I'm often the first person mentioned when people talk about altered Power Nine.
Or should I say...
Pony Nine.
Don't Hate the Herd
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