The Long Term future of this format...

[Phoenix Ignition]

First of all, awesome response, thank you.

-Not enough card selection. Now I'm no fan of Blue hogging all the good stuff in Legacy and Vintage, but a fast Eternal format (Modern isn't all that slow) without the ability to see lots of cards is pretty miserable. You have Gifts, Cascade, Sleight of Hand, Serum Visions, and a few niche things like Pod and Harbingers but it doesn't feel like enough, especially when you need to get sideboard hate in game 2 and a usable hand. I'm not sure how they can solve this, but I hope their minds are better than mine, because games decided after you've seen your opening hand plus a few draws is pretty brutal. I'm not sure Wizard gets this though, because they always speak in terms of "turns" when that's not really the best way to look at an Eternal format.

This is a valid point, but also one of the reasons why I really love Modern. Blue in Legacy is this unstoppable monster of card-quality variance-killing. After getting used to it in Modern, I am so very glad that there are no Brainstorm effects. It really makes you build your deck differently, since you can't just throw away some situational card, you really need to think differently about how every card is going to affect your game percentages.

One effect you may notice due to the lack of overpowered cantrips is the use of so many card-advantage cards. Dark Confidant, Vendilion Clique, Huntmaster of the Fells, Bloodbraid Elf, planeswalkers, Remand, Cryptic Command, Restoration Angel, Snapcaster Mage, Kitchen Finks, Eternal Witness. All of these cards give you card advantage, and playing with a good number of them in a deck is not only fun (since I enjoy playing 2 for 1 style cards), it allows you to play games where you can really grind out wins from playskill.

What this also opens up is non-blue decks. I know we haven't seen a lot of them just because most of the popular events are exclusively for pros and we know how much they love counterspells, but you can play so many good decks that aren't so blue oriented.

-No serious non-basic hate. Yes, Ghost Quarter, Blood Moon, Fulminator Mage, Molten Rain, and that Suspend-Goyf exist...but they aren't good enough. Good non-basics are incredibly powerful, and moreso in Modern because there aren't really any decks that pack good solutions to them in their 75, much less maindeck. Force is often credited as the glue that holds Legacy together, but Wasteland, Sinkhole, Stifle, and Vindicate all do a good job shaping the Legacy meta such that non-basics can be a liability; you have to think before cramming your manabase full of duals, utility lands, and power lands (Coffers, Sanctum, Cradle, etc). There's also a more format-specific problem too; Tron decks. Just like 12-Post Decks before, Tron decks pretty much push any sort of slower control decks out of the format with their inevitable ludicrous bomb, powered out by Urza-lands. Wizards hates land destruction of any sort now, so I doubt they are willing to fix this, but A Sinkhole for non-basics at RR would do wonders, as would a Vindicate reprint. Maybe more use of Trickbind? Dunno, but there needs to be a real risk to using non-basics, or some way to really punish it effectively.

Great point, and the only thing I'm unhappy with. Really, Tectonic Edge is much better than you'd assume off of first glance, which you missed. I'd say its the best non-basic land hate in the format. Some decks are running 3-4 main now, and you'd be surprised at how effective it is. The only thing that I'm upset with in terms of land hate is there isn't anything that can really punish 100% non-basic manabases. I've tried with Choke, but even UW decks only run ~6 islands total, due to so many dual options. I wish they had Price of Progress or Back to Basics, or something similar, but this is my only problem.

-It still suffers from the "Legacy-Lite" image.

This is too subjective to really comment on, but I enjoy being able to play with cards like Bloodbraid Elf and Cryptic Command. Those cards are fun, they're good, but in Legacy you'd get face rolled playing them.

-Too much variance. Not only is this format very dependent on opening hands, owing to the lack of card selection, but I've gotten the distinct impression that the die roll is a bit too important as well. I'm not very attached to this point, and I would concede it's wrong if a more experienced player of the format could explain why this was wrong, but I still do have this gut feeling.

I haven't gotten this feeling from playing the format since its inception. Variance from the die roll doesn't seem to happen in games I play.

This is a very nebulous concept, but I don't see nearly as many "skill-testing" lines of play in Modern decks as I do in Legacy decks.

This is how any format looks on the surface before you actually play it. Vintage, win on turn 2 or lose on turn 2? Nope, it's actually quite skill intensive. Standard? Same thing. It's so easy to classify formats as bad or unfun when that's what you look for.

Just look at a lot of the tier decks in Modern; Lifegain Aggro, Tron, Jund, Twin, Tokens, Affinity, Eggs etc. They're pretty simple decks to play, and they don't have a lot of real...how do I say this...flexibility to get yourself out of tight situations. Discounting things like Show and Tell (which I think is a completely stupid deck/archetype that should be banned on those grounds alone), Legacy is much better.

Once again, this is exactly what any format looks like before you actually play in it. What's lifegain Aggro? You're just wrong if you think that playing a Modern deck well requires no skill.

I don't really find Cascading into stuff with BBE or Tron-ramping into Elesh/Emrakul/etc. to be much fun. The deck I've enjoyed the most in Modern is Shamans...it feels fresh, and is actually pretty versatile what with the Harbingers and all. Unfortunately, it seems like only really interesting deck in Modern (and it's cheap to boot).

You just really haven't looked at the format much, but that's what I get from 95% of the people on these forums.

All formats have decks that others find boring. Show and Tell is awful. UW Miracles lack of variance is the most boring thing I've ever seen (even though I'm glad control is finally back in the format). Dredge winning or losing on sideboards isn't very interesting, and neither is watching goblin players poop out goblins. If you want to try to condense a format down and take away all the intricacies, it can be done with anything.

[alderon666]

What tournaments have replaced Legacy with Modern?

Replace is probably not the word. But the latest teams tournament and the Player's Tournament both had Modern as a main focus and no Legacy to be seem. From what I know Legacy has always been a third of the team tournaments and the Player's Tournament had a Modern Top 8... that seems like a pretty big push for me.

(I could be wrong, correct if I'm wrong please. I'm at work, can't check the info right now)

[dahcmai]

Well, it's happening in my area. 5 stores all have eventually stopped running Legacy despite the decent turnouts (20+ people) and went to Modern. Which only brought in more reinforcing the idea that it should stay Modern. : (

Now we get Legacy as a one off once every three months or so thing.

[Gui]

In my opinion, and it is just my opinion, legacy lost a bit of it when Wizards started to care about us.

I explain: For some time, legacy had the same stables, and super powerful decks compared to T4 or T2, and nothing would change the format. You wouldn't need the new cards to play it, it was a eternal format, with eternal metagame. Once in a very long while, they released something that was useful for legacy, and it saw some play, but that was it.

Then, Wizards started to care about legacy, and that interest kept growing, and every edition started coming with a good card or two, and regularly Staples like KotR, Jace, GSZ, Stoneforge, Tarmogoyf, and such. Hell, they released such powerful stuff that the first game-changing card in a long time, Tarmogoyf, is already deemed as subpar in decks that had it as 4-of.

When the format changes so much and require you to have all the new cards, I call it T2, not T1.5.
Don't get me wrong, some change is good, but every new edition, a shift to meta and to which the good decks are, it's kinda lame.


In that sense, Modern is a better option than Legacy, because at least the staples in there look cheaper. It doesn't have the same ring to it, just because the cards there aren't exactly the old ones that you had a long time ago... at least for now.

In some years, modern will grow a lot with all the people that entered legacy after 8th and then stashed their cards, just as Legacy did. But Modern will support its new comers better, because staples will then be reprinted.

Just my $0.02.

[Zilla]

In some years, modern will grow a lot with all the people that entered legacy after 8th and then stashed their cards, just as Legacy did. But Modern will support its new comers better, because staples will then be reprinted.

So basically you think Modern will be good as soon as it's no longer actually modern.

[Lord Seth]

Great point, and the only thing I'm unhappy with. Really, Tectonic Edge is much better than you'd assume off of first glance, which you missed. I'd say its the best non-basic land hate in the format. Some decks are running 3-4 main now, and you'd be surprised at how effective it is.

I think the issue is that while I do think Wasteland is too powerful for Modern, Tectonic Edge is a bit weak. I'd prefer a card better than Tectonic Edge but weaker than Wasteland.

[lordofthepit]

Well, it's happening in my area. 5 stores all have eventually stopped running Legacy despite the decent turnouts (20+ people) and went to Modern. Which only brought in more reinforcing the idea that it should stay Modern. : (

Now we get Legacy as a one off once every three months or so thing.

If the economy weren't good enough of a reason to move out of Michigan, this should be the final straw. Some of the LGSes in Seattle dabbled with Modern and eventually gave up on it because Legacy saw much better turnout.

[Gui]

So basically you think Modern will be good as soon as it's no longer actually modern.

Nice catch sir.

[alderon666]

I think the issue is that while I do think Wasteland is too powerful for Modern, Tectonic Edge is a bit weak. I'd prefer a card better than Tectonic Edge but weaker than Wasteland.

Yeah, because I love how Legacy playability test goes:
Costs 1 - Better do something awesome because you can't waste slots with weak cards.
Costs 2 - Better be godlike because you're wasting a whole turn doing just this...
Costs 3 - This better be some gamebreaking cards, because you'll probably not even get to 3 mana in most games
Costs 4 - Is it Jace(or Tezzeret I suppose)? Then it's unplayable.

It's just a joke obviously, but I really hate how Daze and Wasteland basically hold the format hostage limiting greatly what cards can be played. Tectonic Edge has more of a role of destroying dangerous lands (looking at you Valakut) and not mana screwing your opponent. Talk about variance getting locked out of a game because you got Wastelanded 2x and never drew another land...

[Ignithas_]

Yeah, because I love how Legacy playability test goes:
Costs 1 - Better do something awesome because you can't waste slots with weak cards.
Costs 2 - Better be godlike because you're wasting a whole turn doing just this...
Costs 3 - This better be some gamebreaking cards, because you'll probably not even get to 3 mana in most games
Costs 4 - Is it Jace(or Tezzeret I suppose)? Then it's unplayable.

It's just a joke obviously, but I really hate how Daze and Wasteland basically hold the format hostage limiting greatly what cards can be played. Tectonic Edge has more of a role of destroying dangerous lands (looking at you Valakut) and not mana screwing your opponent. Talk about variance getting locked out of a game because you got Wastelanded 2x and never drew another land...

To be fair: This isn't a problem of Legacy, a similar situation can be found in Modern and therefore Wasteland and especially Daze aren't the reason therefore. Sure Wasteland kicks landcombo decks out, but every powerful card makes other cards less likely to be played.
I think the reason for the unplayability of most medium and high cost cards are that low cost cards are often extremly efficient (SFM, SCM, Bob, StP, Goyf) and that the ressource system of Magic favors cheap things, because every land you have that you don't need is virtually card disadvantage. And the same goes for high costed cards. A Primeval Titan is a dead card until I have 6 mana avaiable and therefore limiting my options.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Yeah, because I love how Legacy playability test goes:
Costs 1 - Better do something awesome because you can't waste slots with weak cards.
Costs 2 - Better be godlike because you're wasting a whole turn doing just this...
Costs 3 - This better be some gamebreaking cards, because you'll probably not even get to 3 mana in most games
Costs 4 - Is it Jace(or Tezzeret I suppose)? Then it's unplayable.

It's just a joke obviously, but I really hate how Daze and Wasteland basically hold the format hostage limiting greatly what cards can be played. Tectonic Edge has more of a role of destroying dangerous lands (looking at you Valakut) and not mana screwing your opponent. Talk about variance getting locked out of a game because you got Wastelanded 2x and never drew another land...

What the fuck are you even doing here if you don't like Legacy? Why don't you go join a gay forum and tell them how much you would hate to marry a dude?

[Kich867]

Yeah, because I love how Legacy playability test goes:
Costs 1 - Better do something awesome because you can't waste slots with weak cards.
Costs 2 - Better be godlike because you're wasting a whole turn doing just this...
Costs 3 - This better be some gamebreaking cards, because you'll probably not even get to 3 mana in most games
Costs 4 - Is it Jace(or Tezzeret I suppose)? Then it's unplayable.

It's just a joke obviously, but I really hate how Daze and Wasteland basically hold the format hostage limiting greatly what cards can be played. Tectonic Edge has more of a role of destroying dangerous lands (looking at you Valakut) and not mana screwing your opponent. Talk about variance getting locked out of a game because you got Wastelanded 2x and never drew another land...

I think this is more of a misconception of people who don't play much legacy. I mean, just browse through SCG live coverage, you'll see more games going to 40-50+ minutes than you do in standard. I find for the most part standard is a much faster format. Legacy is balanced around people wielding bombs and harsh, direct means of stopping threats. The only time that games go quickly is when someone keeps a pretty bad hand or the other person has a godhand and they just blow the opponent.

Mana curves, realistically, can handle 4cc cards so long as they're your upper limit. Very few decks can reliably handle 5cc+ cards without being very obviously built around it (UB Tezzeret / Nic Fit). You can't just durdle for four turns, I mean christ you can't even do that in standard--you want a proper curve in legacy just as you do in standard, so I don't really see where this is coming from.

I mean, if you're looking to just play bad cards, whatever, but there isn't a particularly short supply of absolutely kickass one drops, two drops, three drops, and four drops in legacy..

[danyul]

Yeah, because I love how Legacy playability test goes:
Costs 1 - Better do something awesome because you can't waste slots with weak cards.
Costs 2 - Better be godlike because you're wasting a whole turn doing just this...
Costs 3 - This better be some gamebreaking cards, because you'll probably not even get to 3 mana in most games
Costs 4 - Is it Jace(or Tezzeret I suppose)? Then it's unplayable.

It's just a joke obviously, but I really hate how Daze and Wasteland basically hold the format hostage limiting greatly what cards can be played. Tectonic Edge has more of a role of destroying dangerous lands (looking at you Valakut) and not mana screwing your opponent. Talk about variance getting locked out of a game because you got Wastelanded 2x and never drew another land...

You definitely sound like a Modern player.

There are some Modern tourneys in my area and I hit them up all the time. Not to play but just to hangout and trade with people. I started to notice that all the Modern players had really distorted notions of what Legacy really is. They think every Legacy deck has some Turn 2 combo kill or that you can only play the format if you slam down a million dollars. I try to explain to them that the format is not that simple - that almost every strategy, however degenerate, has some kind of answer. And that even budget decks can win large tournaments. But they refuse to accept that complexity. They continue to have a very binary definition of the format. In some ways they are right. And in many other ways they are wrong. But their view of Legacy is inflexible. And I can't talk them out of their corner.

Also, I've noticed that Modern players (in my limited experience) don't have a lot of disposable income. They skew towards a younger crowd. So of course, I can understand why they might shy away from Legacy. But if you have a full-time job, even a shitty one, and are a savvy trader, I think you can easily get into Legacy. Not in a week or even a few months. But over time you can build your way into a deck. That's what I did. And then I stupidly sold my collection and did it again. You can do it too, if you see the format as something worth investing in.

I guess I got a bit off topic but I get the feeling that you are one of those players who sees all the duals and the whatever and just gets frustrated at the buy-in price for Legacy. Actually, I just checked your older posts and that's exactly how you feel. It's not even subtle. I dunno what to tell you, dude. You cannot play the format if every time you see a dual land, you get all tense and full of rage. Do you drive around frowning at every Lexus you see? Just save your money, man. Snipe auctions on Ebay. Be a friendly player. I get many favorable trades just by being a nice guy.

Lol I dunno. But raging won't get you anywhere.

[The Big Ragu]

If Legacy dies, then I'll be done with MTG. I enjoy EDH, but only once in awhile. I could never get into Standard or Limited.

[Lemnear]

You definitely sound like a Modern player.
I started to notice that all the Modern players had really distorted notions of what Legacy really is. They think every Legacy deck has some Turn 2 combo kill or that you can only play the format if you slam down a million dollars. I try to explain to them that the format is not that simple - that almost every strategy, however degenerate, has some kind of answer. And that even budget decks can win large tournaments. But they refuse to accept that complexity. They continue to have a very binary definition of the format. In some ways they are right. And in many other ways they are wrong. But their view of Legacy is inflexible. And I can't talk them out of their corner.

It's hilarious that if you replace "Legacy" with "Vintage" and "Modern" with "Legacy" the whole Paragraph remains 100% true.

[Lemnear]

I started to notice that all the Legacy players had really distorted notions of what Vintage really is. They think every Vintage deck has some Turn 2 combo kill or that you can only play the format if you slam down a million dollars. I try to explain to them that the format is not that simple - that almost every strategy, however degenerate, has some kind of answer. And that even budget decks can win large tournaments. But they refuse to accept that complexity. They continue to have a very binary definition of the format. In some ways they are right. And in many other ways they are wrong. But their view of Vintage is inflexible. And I can't talk them out of their corner.

It's hilarious that if you replace "Legacy" with "Vintage" and "Modern" with "Legacy" the whole Paragraph remains 100% true.

[alderon666]

To be fair: This isn't a problem of Legacy, a similar situation can be found in Modern and therefore Wasteland and especially Daze aren't the reason therefore. Sure Wasteland kicks landcombo decks out, but every powerful card makes other cards less likely to be played.
I think the reason for the unplayability of most medium and high cost cards are that low cost cards are often extremly efficient (SFM, SCM, Bob, StP, Goyf) and that the ressource system of Magic favors cheap things, because every land you have that you don't need is virtually card disadvantage. And the same goes for high costed cards. A Primeval Titan is a dead card until I have 6 mana avaiable and therefore limiting my options.

Agreed. You sir made a very good point.

What the fuck are you even doing here if you don't like Legacy? Why don't you go join a gay forum and tell them how much you would hate to marry a dude?

Let the hate flow through you...

I think this is more of a misconception of people who don't play much legacy. I mean, just browse through SCG live coverage, you'll see more games going to 40-50+ minutes than you do in standard. I find for the most part standard is a much faster format. Legacy is balanced around people wielding bombs and harsh, direct means of stopping threats. The only time that games go quickly is when someone keeps a pretty bad hand or the other person has a godhand and they just blow the opponent.

Mana curves, realistically, can handle 4cc cards so long as they're your upper limit. Very few decks can reliably handle 5cc+ cards without being very obviously built around it (UB Tezzeret / Nic Fit). You can't just durdle for four turns, I mean christ you can't even do that in standard--you want a proper curve in legacy just as you do in standard, so I don't really see where this is coming from.

I mean, if you're looking to just play bad cards, whatever, but there isn't a particularly short supply of absolutely kickass one drops, two drops, three drops, and four drops in legacy..

In my view games go so long because the game states are complicated and every small decision counts, also people love to fucking shuffle their decks. But in Legacy you'll also see Belcher win turn 1 in 5 minutes.

The only king of decks that can play 4's in Legacy are Sol Land decks and extreme control decks with a bunch of basics. Other than that just stick to your 1's and 2's.

You definitely sound like a Modern player.

There are some Modern tourneys in my area and I hit them up all the time. Not to play but just to hangout and trade with people. I started to notice that all the Modern players had really distorted notions of what Legacy really is. They think every Legacy deck has some Turn 2 combo kill or that you can only play the format if you slam down a million dollars. I try to explain to them that the format is not that simple - that almost every strategy, however degenerate, has some kind of answer. And that even budget decks can win large tournaments. But they refuse to accept that complexity. They continue to have a very binary definition of the format. In some ways they are right. And in many other ways they are wrong. But their view of Legacy is inflexible. And I can't talk them out of their corner.

Also, I've noticed that Modern players (in my limited experience) don't have a lot of disposable income. They skew towards a younger crowd. So of course, I can understand why they might shy away from Legacy. But if you have a full-time job, even a shitty one, and are a savvy trader, I think you can easily get into Legacy. Not in a week or even a few months. But over time you can build your way into a deck. That's what I did. And then I stupidly sold my collection and did it again. You can do it too, if you see the format as something worth investing in.

I guess I got a bit off topic but I get the feeling that you are one of those players who sees all the duals and the whatever and just gets frustrated at the buy-in price for Legacy. Actually, I just checked your older posts and that's exactly how you feel. It's not even subtle. I dunno what to tell you, dude. You cannot play the format if every time you see a dual land, you get all tense and full of rage. Do you drive around frowning at every Lexus you see? Just save your money, man. Snipe auctions on Ebay. Be a friendly player. I get many favorable trades just by being a nice guy.

Lol I dunno. But raging won't get you anywhere.

I actually own a playset of Tundra, Underground Sea, some other duals, Force, Wasteland, bunch of fetches, etc. I just don't care much for this format anymore... and I thought that if I'm raging about the things I don't like about it would be here. You know, the topic about The Long Term future of this format...

[Lord Seth]

It's hilarious that if you replace "Legacy" with "Vintage" and "Modern" with "Legacy" the whole Paragraph remains 100% true.

Darn it, you beat me to it.

[Fizzeler]

It's hilarious that if you replace "Legacy" with "Vintage" and "Modern" with "Legacy" the whole Paragraph remains 100% true.

This is true

I wish more people played Vintage around here

[Stan]

Yeah, because I love how Legacy playability test goes:
Costs 1 - Better do something awesome because you can't waste slots with weak cards.
Costs 2 - Better be godlike because you're wasting a whole turn doing just this...
Costs 3 - This better be some gamebreaking cards, because you'll probably not even get to 3 mana in most games
Costs 4 - Is it Jace(or Tezzeret I suppose)? Then it's unplayable.

It's just a joke obviously, but I really hate how Daze and Wasteland basically hold the format hostage limiting greatly what cards can be played. Tectonic Edge has more of a role of destroying dangerous lands (looking at you Valakut) and not mana screwing your opponent. Talk about variance getting locked out of a game because you got Wastelanded 2x and never drew another land...

The average Legacyplayer is extremely greedy with his manabase. If you run a 3 colour deck with 17 or 18 lands (2 or 3 of them basics) and then count on your cantrips to do the digging for you, then you shouldn't cry when somebody wastes you out.