[Deck] Dredge

[ZebraSleeves]

Thanks guys. I think I will be sticking to the ashen ghoul sideboard. I know in my head that they make more sense than dread return, I just felt like if I'm spending 10 hours playing magic it might be a good idea to go "autopilot" for certain matchups in order to avoid mental fatigue. But I think coffee might be able to help me out in that area instead.

As for the firestorms vs. leylines I am strongly in favor of leylines. They are just so good in the mirror and can sometimes help against reanimator and certain loam decks. In my experience firestorms are very ineffective. Its probably just a preference thing, but I hate playing cards that you can't dredge into (although certain concessions must be made for nature's claim and leyline of the void since their effects can be neccessary).

[Final Fortune]

Thanks guys. I think I will be sticking to the ashen ghoul sideboard. I know in my head that they make more sense than dread return, I just felt like if I'm spending 10 hours playing magic it might be a good idea to go "autopilot" for certain matchups in order to avoid mental fatigue. But I think coffee might be able to help me out in that area instead.

As for the firestorms vs. leylines I am strongly in favor of leylines. They are just so good in the mirror and can sometimes help against reanimator and certain loam decks. In my experience firestorms are very ineffective. Its probably just a preference thing, but I hate playing cards that you can't dredge into (although certain concessions must be made for nature's claim and leyline of the void since their effects can be neccessary).

I actually like Dread Returns more than I like Ashen Ghouls in a metagame where the graveyard hate is defined by Surgical Extraction, because even tho' Dread Return gets weaker vs Surgical Extraction eliminating terrtiary targets like Ichorid, Bridge from Below or Golgari Grave Troll, they can only eliminate 1 of the 3 and any 2 combinations of the 3 still make Dread Return a threat, regardless of whether or not it's Ichorid beats and a board of Zombies, a board of Zombies and a Golgari Grave Troll or Ichorid beats and a Golgari Grave Troll it's usually enough to get there and you're never really cold to a Wasteland, which is a huge problem with Ashen Ghoul fwiw.

Even if they remove Golgari Grave Troll, the deck has a lot of surprisingly good Dread Return targets, from Stinkweed Imp to Putrid Imp to Golgari Thug to Ichorid you can always set yourself to trade with their biggest creatures on the board, discard any remaining cards in your hand, stack a Narcomoeba on top of your deck or get another Bridge from Below activation.

I think Ashen Ghoul really shined vs Tormod's Crypt, but Tormod's Crypt just really insn't an actual card anymore post Surgical Extraction because it's not particularly good vs Reanimator or synergistic with the ubiquitous Snapcaster mage or playable before the Dredge player blows you out on the play game 3.

I'm not saying Ashen Ghoul is necessarily bad, but when you have the choice of Ashen Ghoul vs Dread Return when you're not facing your opponent's hate, which happens a lot, because they dont always draw it, you want the inherently more powerful card.

[dredgekid]

Some guidelines on how to use Cabal Therapy might be helpful to the newer players. It is one of the things you need to master to be good with the deck and many people are really clueless on what to pick. I have no idea on how something this complex and situational like the use of Cabal Therapy can be put into simple guidelines, but maybe someone has an idea how to make it work :-) Perhaps with an example or two.

Another thing I often see in question is how and when to slow dredge and / or DDD.

We have a lot of theory which cards to use and why, but no manual how to pilot this deck correctly :-)

I think this might help some of the people who intend to pick up Dredge.

Well, it's kinda hard to write guidelines to. It will come with playing the deck more and more. But here are some suggestions.

blind therapy names G1: Lion's Eye Diamond is a good name since we're only really afraid of faster combo decks game one for the most part. GSZ is also a good name if you have a slower hand to try and stop Ooze.

Against Maverick: G1: you name either GSZ or Ooze, usually GSZ since they run 4x that and like 1-2 Ooze. G2-3: I usually name E. Tutor on T1 and GSZ any time after that. Occasionally, I name Ooze off a gut feeling, but GSZ is usually the better choice.

Against BG/X: Deed is something you have to worry about here. Again, watch out for ooze in the nic-fit match up. GSZ/Ooze is probably the #1 name in that match up. Deed would be #2. BUG I usually name deed on the blind therapy.

U/W/x Stoneblade: Whatever stoneforge grabs lol. This match up is usually a gimmie if you can competently pilot the deck. Just watch out for extraction + snappy G2-3

Epic Storm/AnT: Turn 1 on the play, LED. Any time after that Infernal Tutor. A good storm player will play out his artifact mana right away against a therapy deck.

Belcher: on the play, belcher. on the draw, belcher. G1 - belcher G2-3 - still belcher! If they empty the warrens you can usually stabilize. Their guys are 1/1's your guys are 2/2's.

RUG: This match up is very situational. Sometimes, you wanna name bolt to keep them from being able to remove your bridges by killing their delver. Sometimes, the name is Force to get your breakthrough through. It just depends.

[HokusSchmokus]

Well, it's kinda hard to write guidelines to.

No. Not at all. It's like this: You name the card you will lose to in a certain cituation. If there are multiple cards, count graveyards and hand size in with your decision, as well as your remaining deck and it's power( by the way, if you don't know at any point in the game what cards are left in your deck, you should learn your decklists better, this information is important)
if you want guidelines for matchups, you could do what dredgekid says, but if you are not too lazy and actually want to improve your play you need to learn CT skills all by yourself. YOU are the one piloting the deck and because of that YOU should be able to tell which card in their hand would fuck you up the most.

[joemauer]

I did pretty good at the SCG tourney yesterday. I even went and made a report.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...g-in-the-bayou

[Que]

I did pretty good at the SCG tourney yesterday. I even went and made a report.

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...g-in-the-bayou

Congrats on your result! Way to rep.

on a side note.
I can't help but think Unmask needs to find its way into the sb. will see.

[Fizzeler]

Congrats on your result! Way to rep.

on a side note.
I can't help but think Unmask needs to find its way into the sb. will see.

Oddly enough I agree, being able to strip hate game 2 and 3 is pretty good even of it costs you a PImp to do so

[joemauer]

A shameless copy and paste from the old dredge thread:

The combination of having the perfect hand with Unmask is tough. Ideally you want discard outlet+dredger+draw spell+one or two lands+Unmask+something to chunk to unmask.

Unmask itself doesn't always turn the tide either when having it in the perfect hand.

The card sucks further when you are on the draw which is half the games you would side it in.


We need to add a "Cards that didn't make the cut" section to the primer like the TES thread.

It gets old explaining why Unmask and Entomb don't belong in Dredge.

[Dudewelp]

In the original primer, Hollywood has a memory's journey in the board for quads. What does that do for dredge?

[ScatmanX]

In the original primer, Hollywood has a memory's journey in the board for quads. What does that do for dredge?

I'd guess to Surgical Extraction.

[Gui]

We need to add a "Cards that didn't make the cut" section to the primer like the TES thread.

It gets old explaining why Unmask and Entomb don't belong in Dredge.

OTOH, I imagine what cards like Thoughtseize or Inquisition of Kozilek could do for the deck, anti-hate wise while still discarding.
Also, with Gitaxian Probe, Therapy could be a granted hit on turn 1 against hate.

Hard to figure if these would dilute the deck too much, but giving it a thought, one could use G. Probe as a accelerator, and Thoughtseize as a discard, and effectively have 8 targeted anti-hate without diluting too much.

[HokusSchmokus]

Are you serious Gui? Oo

With Probe, okay you can argue that. I still think it's bad but yeah you can argue that. Other than that, spells we need to cast for mana can't really be good in Dredge, because we'd rather do other things with the mana(going off e.b.)Also we need to cut at least 4 slots that should be action imo.

[Michael Keller]

If you guys think that's a good idea, I'll do it.

[Gui]

Are you serious Gui? Oo

With Probe, okay you can argue that. I still think it's bad but yeah you can argue that. Other than that, spells we need to cast for mana can't really be good in Dredge, because we'd rather do other things with the mana(going off e.b.)Also we need to cut at least 4 slots that should be action imo.

Thing is, G2/G3, it doesn't matter how good you are at going off if you can't handle their hate properly. I'm not saying it will be good, I'm just wondering if it could be good. I never tested, really.

It fits, tho. We are used to go with anti-hate that costs of any color anyway, we would be going proactive instead of reactive, but with the added bonus of handling a larger array of hate, and a turn before we try to go off.

Well, I wouldn't mind if you do, Hollywood xD

[Final Fortune]

Thing is, G2/G3, it doesn't matter how good you are at going off if you can't handle their hate properly. I'm not saying it will be good, I'm just wondering if it could be good. I never tested, really.

It fits, tho. We are used to go with anti-hate that costs of any color anyway, we would be going proactive instead of reactive, but with the added bonus of handling a larger array of hate, and a turn before we try to go off.

Well, I wouldn't mind if you do, Hollywood xD

It'd be effective against Surgical Extraction or other hate cards the opponent has to hold in his hand, but then there's the issue of what are you going to take out of your SB and your MD in order to play it.

Other than Leyline of the Void, I don't SB in answers for anything.

[Que]

A shameless copy and paste from the old dredge thread:

The combination of having the perfect hand with Unmask is tough. Ideally you want discard outlet+dredger+draw spell+one or two lands+Unmask+something to chunk to unmask.

Unmask itself doesn't always turn the tide either when having it in the perfect hand.

The card sucks further when you are on the draw which is half the games you would side it in.


We need to add a "Cards that didn't make the cut" section to the primer like the TES thread.

It gets old explaining why Unmask and Entomb don't belong in Dredge.

You're right I suck at Dredge. Invalidate my opinion with an old quote.

I'm just saying that there may be other applications to Unmask. Its free! Thats what I care most about. You guys can pretend its not a problem, but when the deck is only running 12-13 lands actually playing your sb cards becomes an issue. Especially when you don't want to completely go all in. You want some kind of information in the form of therapy usually so see if the coast is clear. In this regard playing Unmask does not open you up to Wasteland. and of course as already mentioned it acts as a supplement to cards like Cabal Therapy. Its thoughtseize so it takes problematic creatures and the deck has plenty of gas in the black creature department. bleh. I'll bother to test it whenever free time opens up.

In any case I'll probably play Manaless at the next credit event again just to troll people. :U

[Michael Keller]

I was going to update the opening post with some new or other information, perhaps some links or videos and such. If anyone has anything to contribute, let me know and I'll be happy to do that.

[iPhael]

Selling my dredge for anyone interested:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...231#post684231

[4zureSky]

Hey guys, I am planning to join a local tourney and I have a very diverse metagame. Would you guys think this sideboard would suffice?

Sideboard:
2 Tireless tribes
1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Ingot Chewer
1 Iona
1 Elesh
1 Dread return
2 Chain of Vapor
3 Nature's Claim
2 Ashen Ghoul
1 Memory's Journey

My deck is pretty much a mixture between quad and combo..? I can never tell the difference.
I have 13 lands in the main, in case you guys want to know.
Thanks!~

[Michael Keller]

I think the sideboard is pretty diverse, but that is not necessarily a "bad" thing. If you're opting to play a sideboard that is built to deal with hate, then I would suggest upping the count of Claims and or Chains. However, in its current state, consider your meta and ask yourself:

Is Iona necessary?

Is the single Ingot Chewer's variance helping you, or would you rather eschew it for more of the aforementioned choices?

Is one Memory's Journey total good enough to beat other graveyard-based decks?

Keep in mind your meta and adapt your sideboard to deal with it. These are just basic questions you can ask yourself when deciding what works best for you in your particular meta. Consider what people are playing and plug and play accordingly.