[Deck] Nic Fit (GBx Explorer Zenith Control)

[Ayotte]

I'd say Yes we need black. If only for Cabal Therapy. Part of what makes NicFit even remotely competative is Cabal Therapy. It's basically discard and ramp when combined with Explorer. You dont really have to dig deep into black to make Therapy playable, especially with the used of fetchlands but I for one would never cut black all together even when there are alterantive sacoutlets available for the Explorer. The discard is just too good to pass up if you ask me.

Especially when it comes to getting rid of FoW and Counterspell so that you can cast the mirror,.

[Arianrhod]

Sorry to interrupt the discussion about the new Nic Fit list. This is what makes Nic fit great as well, it is so versatile, you never get bored with it.

Question: against a meta with stone/esper blade would Punishing Fit be better than Scapeshift?

Punishing is probably better against Stoneblade than Scapewish is, but I think that you can't really go wrong with either option. If I had to pick one or the other, though, I would go Punishing vs 'Blade.

For ChronoFit: Do we even need black? I understand it is needed for sacrificing explorer but removing it altogether would make the deck more stable. Green can use prey upon or crop rotation + phyrexian tower to pop explorer? If we need wipe there is disk and all is dust idk. volrath's stronghold + phyrexian tower + eternal witness + time warp we can also have an alternate win combo.

Yeah, black is really important. Black gives us Deed, Therapy, Pulse, Damnation, and sideboard answers to combo. It's definitely not removable.

-----------

I thought about removing the Green Suns and 1x of something else to fit in 4 Shardless Agents. But, I dunno. Most of our cascades would be pretty mediocre. It's also possible that removing Green Sun in favor of rounding out the creature base (more Gifts-rocky style) would be better. Either way, Green Sun is on my shit list in this version. It underperforms consistently.

Cryptic, on the other hand, has been nothing short of astonishingly good. I want a second.

I'm going to split things up into categories in hopes of making brewing easier for all parties:

Inviolate:
Veterans, Therapies, Visions, 1 Time Warp, Mirrors, Deed

Really fucking good:
Cryptic, 1 Warp, 2 Jaces, Witnesses

Meh but probably necessary:
Sakuras, Thragtusks, Pulses

Meh, maybe can be cut:
Oracles (Mul Daya and Coiling), 3rd jace, Damnations, 1 Warp

I hate drawing these:
Green Suns

Overall, at the moment, it seems like this version durdles. A lot. I mean, more than Scapewish and more than Rector, even, which is just damned impressive. I blame the mana consumption for this, as well as the inherent card/tempo disadvantage. To establish a Cryptic lock, you need 7 mana. Mirror requires you to time walk yourself once you hit 5 mana and then survive before it goes busted. Time Warp is often a 5-mana cantrip. The curve is pretty miserable right now, too.

The way I see it, there are two different core lines of play present within the deck, and both should be fully explored/viable options depending on your opening hand and your opponent: a ramp/combo similar to Scapewish (note that Witness + Cryptic takes 7 mana, which is the same as most Scapeshifts); or a Visions-fueled control deck. There is no reason why this deck should not also be able to do the classic "Suspend Visions on t1, 1-for-1 everything until Visions comes off an refuels, proceed to bury opponent in card advantage" line. That means that we probably want a bit more spot removal -- perhaps trade out the Damnations for Decays? Although Damnation + Mirror just seems fantastic. Maybe go back down to 2 Deeds in order to keep 1 Damnation in the deck?

I really have no idea about any of this, by the by -- I'm just vomiting ideas, thoughts, and perceptions into the thread in hopes that something comes of it. This is how I brew, sadly -- it's a very messy process, lol.

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Also, I want Bribery in the sideboard. Like, REALLLLLLLL bad.

[Star|Scream]

The worst card I've played against so far is dark confidant. We cannot let him live. I'm all for adding abrupt decay.

My question is what does looping cryptic command really do for us? We spend an entire turn and all (most) of our mana to counter a spell, but can't they just wait a turn and cast 2 spells during their turn? It's not exactly a hard lock. I guess if we have a thragtusk down and they have an empty board it's good, but aren't we winning then anyway?

I'll agree that deck is top-heavy. Having a hand of warp, warp, mirror on the first few turns sucks really bad, but that's all the more reason for us to keep top or add brainstorm. Also I'd never hardcast time warp except to alpha strike for the win.

Punishing is probably better against Stoneblade than Scapewish is, but I think that you can't really go wrong with either option. If I had to pick one or the other, though, I would go Punishing vs 'Blade.



Yeah, black is really important. Black gives us Deed, Therapy, Pulse, Damnation, and sideboard answers to combo. It's definitely not removable.

-----------

I thought about removing the Green Suns and 1x of something else to fit in 4 Shardless Agents. But, I dunno. Most of our cascades would be pretty mediocre. It's also possible that removing Green Sun in favor of rounding out the creature base (more Gifts-rocky style) would be better. Either way, Green Sun is on my shit list in this version. It underperforms consistently.

Cryptic, on the other hand, has been nothing short of astonishingly good. I want a second.

I'm going to split things up into categories in hopes of making brewing easier for all parties:

Inviolate:
Veterans, Therapies, Visions, 1 Time Warp, Mirrors, Deed

Really fucking good:
Cryptic, 1 Warp, 2 Jaces, Witnesses

Meh but probably necessary:
Sakuras, Thragtusks, Pulses

Meh, maybe can be cut:
Oracles (Mul Daya and Coiling), 3rd jace, Damnations, 1 Warp

I hate drawing these:
Green Suns

Overall, at the moment, it seems like this version durdles. A lot. I mean, more than Scapewish and more than Rector, even, which is just damned impressive. I blame the mana consumption for this, as well as the inherent card/tempo disadvantage. To establish a Cryptic lock, you need 7 mana. Mirror requires you to time walk yourself once you hit 5 mana and then survive before it goes busted. Time Warp is often a 5-mana cantrip. The curve is pretty miserable right now, too.

The way I see it, there are two different core lines of play present within the deck, and both should be fully explored/viable options depending on your opening hand and your opponent: a ramp/combo similar to Scapewish (note that Witness + Cryptic takes 7 mana, which is the same as most Scapeshifts); or a Visions-fueled control deck. There is no reason why this deck should not also be able to do the classic "Suspend Visions on t1, 1-for-1 everything until Visions comes off an refuels, proceed to bury opponent in card advantage" line. That means that we probably want a bit more spot removal -- perhaps trade out the Damnations for Decays? Although Damnation + Mirror just seems fantastic. Maybe go back down to 2 Deeds in order to keep 1 Damnation in the deck?

I really have no idea about any of this, by the by -- I'm just vomiting ideas, thoughts, and perceptions into the thread in hopes that something comes of it. This is how I brew, sadly -- it's a very messy process, lol.

----------

Also, I want Bribery in the sideboard. Like, REALLLLLLLL bad.

[Niche]

EpicLevelCommoner, yes, it is I.

Checking back in... I was joking about this in magic general on WotC (hexproof 'discussion' and its abuse) but I realized this deck is a good spot to.. for lack of a better term... troll... the format.

Here's where I went:

4 Veteran Explorer
1 Deathrite Shaman
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
2 Eternal Witness
1 Troll Ascetic
1 Thrun, the last troll
1 Kodama of the North Tree
1 Thragtusk

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Thoughtseize
3 Diabolic Intent
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Sylvan Library

2 Garruk, Primal Hunter

1 Batterskull

1 Dryad Arbor
2 Bayou
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Marsh Flats
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
2 Swamp
6 Forest

Sideboard:
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
2 Crop Rotation
3 Memoricide
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Thragtusk
1 Krosan Grip
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2 Black Sun's Zenith

I went to get 2 SDT's but there are none in the area and I don't want to order them with my 5k in <2 weeks in case they don't show up (still waiting on my 2 towers and 4th explorer to arrive). I will buy them at the SCG Open and remove Sylvan and 1 Diabolic Intent.

Cannot remember my last 2 sideboard cards right now. Might be 2 more Deathrite Shamans to be honest.. and now I'm thinking I removed Melira for something else more techy.

So... since people are having trouble with having their wincons removed in GB I not only stuck with North Tree and Thrun, I added Troll Ascetic. Major lulz are to be had when you give these guys Batterskull... and Batterskull itself is a removal resistant wincon which still dodges things like abrupt decay, d-sphere, o-ring when you've got all the mana we have access to. Plus this deck can keep it coming back in an obnoxious way even stoneblade cannot reproduce. Intent acts like SFM here when you turn 2 eat your veteran explorer and can play your bskull on 3.

So I present; Trollskills. Read as Noskills. Or Play Non-interactive creature, hand it a batterskull, send it into the redzone over and over again until you win or they scoop. Sweep chumps off the table with pulse/deed.

[Ayotte]

So... since people are having trouble with having their wincons removed in GB I not only stuck with North Tree and Thrun, I added Troll Ascetic. Major lulz are to be had when you give these guys Batterskull

You can't target Kodama of the North Tree with Batterskull's equip ability.

[Arianrhod]

The worst card I've played against so far is dark confidant. We cannot let him live. I'm all for adding abrupt decay.

My question is what does looping cryptic command really do for us? We spend an entire turn and all (most) of our mana to counter a spell, but can't they just wait a turn and cast 2 spells during their turn? It's not exactly a hard lock. I guess if we have a thragtusk down and they have an empty board it's good, but aren't we winning then anyway?

I'll agree that deck is top-heavy. Having a hand of warp, warp, mirror on the first few turns sucks really bad, but that's all the more reason for us to keep top or add brainstorm. Also I'd never hardcast time warp except to alpha strike for the win.

Looping Cryptic enables a couple of sweet things:

For one, it can lock an opponent completely out of combat. You tap down their creatures during their upkeep + bounce Eternal Witness. Then you replay Witness on your turn, getting back Cryptic, and so on. At that point, they can never attack you unless you allow it (or they find a way to get rid of the witness).

Also, most legacy decks don't have the kind of mana necessary to cast more than one spell per turn -- or you might not care about the spell that they're casting.

I think that the first option (locking them out of combat) is significantly more valuable than the counterspell every turn option, but both are valuable tools to keep in mind IMO.

[Niche]

You can't target Kodama of the North Tree with Batterskull's equip ability.

I am familiar with the game rules regarding shroud versus hexproof. This works fine with the actual trolls. Kodama is already a pretty big clock with evasion. I just assumed everyone else knew you cannot give equipment to Shroud creatures and that if we all knew there wouldn't be a problem. =)

[Star|Scream]

Looping Cryptic enables a couple of sweet things:

For one, it can lock an opponent completely out of combat. You tap down their creatures during their upkeep + bounce Eternal Witness. Then you replay Witness on your turn, getting back Cryptic, and so on. At that point, they can never attack you unless you allow it (or they find a way to get rid of the witness).

Also, most legacy decks don't have the kind of mana necessary to cast more than one spell per turn -- or you might not care about the spell that they're casting.

I think that the first option (locking them out of combat) is significantly more valuable than the counterspell every turn option, but both are valuable tools to keep in mind IMO.

I get all that, but we're spending 7 mana a turn to do nothing. If you are tapping down their creatures then they still get to play their spells and draw cards. You can't even attack with the witness because you bounce it before it loses summoning sickness. So, again, I guess it's okay if you already have a thragtusk out, but they should eventually deal with that since you're letting them draw and cast spells.

[Arianrhod]

I get all that, but we're spending 7 mana a turn to do nothing. If you are tapping down their creatures then they still get to play their spells and draw cards. You can't even attack with the witness because you bounce it before it loses summoning sickness. So, again, I guess it's okay if you already have a thragtusk out, but they should eventually deal with that since you're letting them draw and cast spells.

Oh I agree that its not a good endpoint. But it can stall for while you draw into a deed or a damnation or something, which is a good synergy to be aware of....thats all. Definitr ly not an end game to strive for. Sorry if you got that impression.

[Star|Scream]

No worries.

Another fun play:

Untap
Upkeep,

Mirror trigger on stack,

Top for one (or brainstorm,)

find time warp, move to top of library

Tap top, put time warp in hand

Tap mirror and 5 mana to imprint Time warp

Trigger resolves, get extra turn

[Arianrhod]

No worries.

Another fun play:

Untap
Upkeep,

Mirror trigger on stack,

Top for one (or brainstorm,)

find time warp, move to top of library

Tap top, put time warp in hand

Tap mirror and 5 mana to imprint Time warp

Trigger resolves, get extra turn

This makes me wish Mystical Tutor was still legal. Because my god, this deck would LOVE Mystical.

[sderenatore]

Chronofit:
Why don't we play a big flyer that possibly does something? For example Consecrated Sphinx (or Sphinx of Magosi: while obviously inferior to the consecrated sphinx, it is insanely funny to play eheh).

@People who want to cut GSZ: mmm.. I dunno, I just play 2 copies of it, and until now it did his job ok I guess. What would you replace it with? Creatures or disruption? In case you chose disruption: how would u re-design the creatures package then?

@Shardless Agent: Could be nice, but not synergistic with the deck right now. Shardless would imply something like -2 TOP -2 Sakura -2/3/4 GSZ (depends on how many u play, if you do) +3 Shardless +1Wood Elves (assuming you have 0 woods) +2 thoughtseize (+1 a creature i would say, as long as we cut GSZ). This is a possibility to explore. Also you probably already thought at Shardless + Hymn.

[Star|Scream]

The deck's late game is fine enough without needing a sphinx. Generating card advantage is not a problem with this version.

If anything, it needs to lower the curve so that you can survive to cast the mirror.

Chronofit:
Why don't we play a big flyer that possibly does something? For example Consecrated Sphinx (or Sphinx of Magosi: while obviously inferior to the consecrated sphinx, it is insanely funny to play eheh).

@People who want to cut GSZ: mmm.. I dunno, I just play 2 copies of it, and until now it did his job ok I guess. What would you replace it with? Creatures or disruption? In case you chose disruption: how would u re-design the creatures package then?

@Shardless Agent: Could be nice, but not synergistic with the deck right now. Shardless would imply something like -2 TOP -2 Sakura -2/3/4 GSZ (depends on how many u play, if you do) +3 Shardless +1Wood Elves (assuming you have 0 woods) +2 thoughtseize (+1 a creature i would say, as long as we cut GSZ). This is a possibility to explore. Also you probably already thought at Shardless + Hymn.

[sderenatore]

The deck's late game is fine enough without needing a sphinx. Generating card advantage is not a problem with this version.

Yeah i agree, what i like of the Sphinx is the fact that it flies. Even Simic Sky Swallower could be in that slot.

[Star|Scream]

Lost with chronofit against u/w countertop and a very bad GBr nic fit deck.

I had bad mulligans for all the games, but that may be because of the high cmc

[nottz]

4 Veteran Explorer
2 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Sakura-Tribe Elder
1 Wood Elves
2 Eternal Witness
1 Thragtusk
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Damnation
2 Time Warp
1 Cryptic Command
3 Pernicious Deed
2 Panoptic Mirror
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs
4 Ancestral Vision
3 Shardless Agent
3 Hymn to Tourach
2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 2 Panoptic Mirror
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 4 Negate
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 1 Trygon Predator
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast

Maybe something like this would make the deck less top heavy. No time to test it right now, but if someone has time to give it a whirl let us know how to goes. Hymn gives us some more early disruption and decay is something else to cascade into. Top lets us manipulate our cascades consistently. Re-buying agent to simply cascade into even more things seems awesome. I just want this damn deck to run smoothly.

[Qweerios]

Played Nic Fit at a local shop after a long break. The list:


Creatures (17)
4 Veteran Explorer
2 Wall of Blossoms
2 Eternal Witness
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Fierce Empath
1 Thragtusk
1 Sigarda, Host of Herons
1 Sun Titan
1 Grave Titan
1 Angel of Despair

Spells (21)
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Thoughtseize
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Vindicate

4 Pernicious Deed
3 Sensei's Divining Top

Lands (22)
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Phyrexian Tower
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
2 Bayou
2 Savannah
1 Scrubland
3 Forest
2 Swamp
2 Plains

Sideboard (15)
2 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
2 Memoricide
2 Extirpate
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse


Here is how it went:

2-0 vs. Lands

They cannot answer Sigarda and Ooze is a tough nut to crack

2-0 vs. Goblins

I had the nuts in g1 with a T3 Sigarda, 2 Deeds, and an Angel of Despair. I took G2 with a pulse on 3 lackeys and a Grave Titan + Thragtusk finish.

2-0 vs. BUG Tempo

I godhanded both games with 2 lands, therapy, explorer, gsz, deed, top openers.

2-0 vs. Burn

Wall of Blossom + Ooze + Thragtusk sealed both games

[Greenpoe]

Qweerios, nice job! 2-0 x4 is sweet!

nottz, that list looks really sweet. I'd definitely run a 3rd Jace (cutting Tribe Elder - without GSZ, it's pretty random and it's a poor cascade). But Shardless into Hymn, Therapy, Decay or Top all sounds excellent.

[Star|Scream]

Congrats, Qweerios!

What prompted you to put in 2 walls of blossoms? Also what stopped you from playing any planeswalkers in this build?

[Arianrhod]

Grats@Qweerios =)

This is what I tested last night:

4 Veteran Explorer
3 Coiling Oracle
3 Eternal Witness
2 Thragtusk

4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ancestral Visions
2 Time Warp
2 Grim Tutor
1 Damnation
1 Maelstrom Pulse

2 Brainstorm
2 Cryptic Command
2 Abrupt Decay

3 Pernicious Deed

2 Panoptic Mirror

2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Phyrexian Tower
3 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Underground Sea
3 Forest
3 Island
2 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Verdant Catacombs

SB: 1 Cranial Extraction
SB: 1 Memoricide
SB: 1 Panoptic Mirror
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 4 Negate
SB: 2 Extirpate
SB: 2 Bribery
SB: 2 Blue Elemental Blast


I've been mostly testing against Maverick, because that's what my primary test partner always wants to use. I'm generally okay with that, though, because Maverick has maindeck artifact destruction, maindeck Revokers, maindeck Teeg, and a host of other annoyances -- it's not like a "traditional" maverick build that I would just walk all over. I'm still winning the majority of the games, but it's definitely not as easy as with Scapewish, for example.

I have not missed Green Sun's Zenith whatsoever, although Coiling Oracle has been mediocre even with Brainstorm to set up. I opted for Oracle over Sakura because I wanted more warm bodies for Therapy. I'm probably going to try either Sylvan Ranger or Viridian Emissary tonight, and see if either of those options go better. I need the guaranteed ramp/basic fixing...especially without Green Sun as extra Explorers, and Coiling Oracle just isn't getting there.

The Grim Tutors are stolen from Future Fit. They served me pretty well last night -- the 3 damage is painful, but Tusk offsets it, and you rarely fail to win the turn after (or sometimes even the turn of) casting Grim Tutor. I explored a few other Tutor options...but Chronos doesn't have the critter density to use Diabolic Intent, Rhystic is just bad, Diabolic Tutor is too expensive, and Cruel Tutor is bad without Top (and probably with it, too). One game, my Maverick opponent had a Safekeeper, a Mom, and a pair of Revokers with one on Mirror and one on Deed. I Grim Tutor'd for Damnation ^_^

I dislike not having additional ways of recurring Witness. I still don't like the idea of Nightmare since I don't have a high enough creature density. I'm considering Volrath's Stronghold, but I'm not sure that it's worth it without Primeval Titan as a tutor for it, and Primeval likely isn't worth it without Green Sun. Awkward.

The Abrupt Decays have been amazing. Brainstorm has been kind of meh, but it's basically Visions copies 5 and 6, so I guess whatever. The 3rd Time Warp hasn't been missed at all; the 3rd Jace is harder to evaluate. Once the deck lands a Jace, it can usually protect it (if it isn't abusing Witness to do something dumb), but I'm not sure that I'm seeing Jace often enough.

Cryptic, on the other hand, I'm seeing a sufficient amount of the time as a 2-of. It's enough for it to be awesome, but I'm not clogging on them.

I feel like I'm getting closer, overall, but it's definitely not there yet. Hopefully everyone else is achieving progress, too, so we can speed up the development a bit. It took Rector and Scapewish quite a while to get refined...but hopefully with a bunch of us working on Chronos, we'll get there a bit quicker this go around.