Can always keep map as a one of for trinket, I'm also testing pithing needle as a 1 of main deck to tutor for as its so versatile.Originally Posted by Zoldo
The thing about Sylvan Scrying (I play R/G Tron in Modern)... is it's kind of redundant thanks to Crop Rotation, which does the same thing better, granted for a higher risk, forless and during their turn also. If I were to play any other land digging card besides Crop Rotation, I'd probably test Ancient Stirrings in a more mud variant of 12-Post because it can cantrip into artifacts and Eldrazi if they come up (although the things that'd we cantrip into are probably not nearly as impressive as the Karn or Wurmcoil Engine of our Modern cousin, and we're more likely to wiff because we're not quite as colorless as Tron).
But the point that I was getting at is not that Expedition Map should be replaced with a different land searching card, but maybe it's time to consider phasing it out of the deck.
This is what I would call "innovation for innovation sake." My teammate does it all the time, and the founding idea is "I am going to change something because if I do, it makes it my own and that gives me a sense of satisfaction and worth," rather than "I should change something that needs fixing." I am not implying that changes cannot be made, but the justification and logic for those changes need a strong backing in testing and reason. Sylvan Scrying has been discussed extensively in the development thread, I have run several builds with it, and the reasoning for them is outlined in the development thread.
The search function is your friend.
Specifically regarding expedition map, I never ran a build with less than 4 expedition maps that also ran sylvan scrying. A Sylvan Scrying build necessitates running a basic forest, which the sideboard currently can not afford to run. And lastly expedition map's reduction in number is mostly due to Trinket Mage's inclusion, which you avoided mentioning, I also offered as an optional card to cut to get to 60. There have been several tournament games where I found myself having to make hard decisions because I knew I only had one more expedition map in my deck, but had trinket mage and repeals, which normally could get me my last 2 maps and a candelabra to power them out. Going under 3 maps would fundamentally change the adaptiveness of the deck. As I have mentioned several times, your trinket mage choices often go in this order: SDT -> Map -> Candelabra -> Map, depending on your mana situation. Since Map appears twice, it has the most amount of play, while not holding the power potential of SDT.
Er... did you read my post on page 17?
Cutting an Expedition Map or two is not my Innovation for innovation's sake. That would be that I cut a Sensei's Divining Top to test a singleton Well of Knowledge. Or that I'm testing Venser, Shaper Savant in the Mainboard. Or the 16-Post messes that I've started posting all over MTGSalvation to try to kickstart that deck. Or the MUD that I'm brewing with my friends that runs 16-Post and the UrzaTron lands together because let's just throw all the crazy on the wall and see what sticks. Cutting Expedition Map down or out is the fact that the more I play the UG Turbo Eldrazi version of 12-Post, the more I don't like Expedition Map in that particular deck.
There's no question about that. But after the first or second Expedition Map trigger resolution, Expedition Map's search function becomes that friend that won't leave at one AM even though I have to be at work by six because Expedition Map thinks rearranged my CD collection without my consent is a good idea. If I need to pull off that kind of effect bad enough, I'll call it over with Trinket Mage. But the majority time, Crop Rotation and Primeval Titan pull the search function off better.
First, I'm going to reiterate my question of if you read back to page 17 because I started the conversation on Expedition Map by responding to your comment on cutting 61 to 60.
Second, Trinket Mage comes in turn 3, the majority of the time I have stabilized because the ratio of lands that the deck needs (Cloudpost, Tropical Island, or Fetchland) averages out to 1 per 5 cards. I know that a full playset of Expedition Map lowers that spread number to 1 out of 4 (rounded up from 3.75). The thing is that lowering the Expedition Map to 2, the spread averages out to 1 out of 4 (rounded down from 4.28). Trinket Mage covers those missing slots, Primeval Titan covers those slots better, Crop Rotation fills the role, but all those cards multitask as well. Expedition Map is great early game and loses its luster with each passing turn.
For reference the current version of 12-Post I'm tinkering around with:
Lands: 26
4 Cloudpost
4 Vesuva
4 Glimmerpost
4 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Glacial Chasm
4 Misty Rainforest
Creatures: 10
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
4 Primeval Titan
2 Trinket Mage
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
Artifacts: 10
2 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Expedition Map
2 Oblivion Stone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Well of Knowledge
Instants: 10
4 Brainstorm
3 Crop Rotation
3 Repeal
Sorceries: 4
4 Show and Tell
Sideboard
2 Chalice of the Void
4 Flusterstorm
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Oblivion Stone
2 Pithing Needle
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
One of the most painful debates right now is that I'm going back and forth between running 4 Show and Tell and 4 Crop Rotation while I test a Venser in the mainboard. Show and Tell is only winning out right now because I like the idea of running 2 Islands over a split between Island and Forest, although I just might go 61 cards as well (or put that Venser back in the side or drop well).
Last edited by Mockingbird; 01-26-2013 at 01:17 AM. Reason: Added my decklist
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...map#post664840
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...map#post676141
just a few quick ones. the development thread covers Map extensively. That was 30 seconds of me with a search function. Please use it. I don't repeat myself nor pander to lethargy.
I think you are drastically underestimating map's utility if you think its only function is to get lands in order of progressingly increased mana.
[quote]First, I'm going to reiterate my question of if you read back to page 17 because I started the conversation on Expedition Map by responding to your comment on cutting 61 to 60.
Second, Trinket Mage comes in turn 3, the majority of the time I have stabilized because the ratio of lands that the deck needs (Cloudpost, Tropical Island, or Fetchland) averages out to 1 per 5 cards. I know that a full playset of Expedition Map lowers that spread number to 1 out of 4 (rounded up from 3.75). The thing is that lowering the Expedition Map to 2, the spread averages out to 1 out of 4 (rounded down from 4.28). Trinket Mage covers those missing slots, Primeval Titan covers those slots better, Crop Rotation fills the role, but all those cards multitask as well. Expedition Map is great early game and loses its luster with each passing turn.[quote]
If you are playing the deck this linearly and rigidly you will lose to discard or disruption. The true strength of the deck is its adaptability resilience. If you try to cut corners on mana especially, you'll find yourself often up against a wall. What testing do you have with your proposed changes?
I play BUG and RUG Delver, ANT, Mono-Black Control, Esper StoneBlade, and MUD on a regular basis in my play group, and I had a match against Thopter Foundry recently. And none of them are budget. The Oblivion Stones are brand new (as per stalking this thread for months), but the only problematic match I've had so far is MUD because Metalworker and Grim Monolith can race Locus lands.
I'm preparing for a more broad metagame right now, but normally I sided Cursed Totem, Phyrexian Revoker, and even Nature's Claim once upon a time. I may do some of them again sometime because Cursed Totem, Nature's Claim, and Phyrexian Revoker are strong against Stoneblade and MUD, and Phyrexian Revoker can name Lion's Eye Diamond. For the majority of these matches, I played the Providence version of your main board (October-New Year's), and the majority of the time, Game 2 and/or 3, I side out 3-4 Expedition Maps for the hate. I don't miss them because I don't think the deck plays rigidly without full Expedition Maps. I don't see it as a cutting a corner but as my testing thus far has shown me I don't need to dedicate four slots to colorless Sylvan Scrying. I started considering Trinket Mage in some of the maps places a few weeks ago when someone on MTGSlavation 12-Post Primer commented on it, and Venser because I play him so much out of the side, then why not start seeing if how much I hate him Game 1, which is also why I squeezed in a second Island over a Forest and moved away from Nature's Claim.
The only change that I haven't tested at all so far is Well of Knowledge, but that's because I found it Thursday night while looking for draw power for-Post™. I want to see if the sharp mana advantage we have over opponents can break the symmetry. Results hopefully can start coming in next week.
Rock, regarding your most recent list, did you find that the 4th show and tell was really useful? I mean, i never like to show an eldrazi (kozilek in praticular, but the others too), because i'm always worried about the answer the opponent may have (liliana, jace, karakas etc...) so basically my show and tell targets are titans only, since they obviously provide board advantage. Playing in this way, i sometimes found the 4th show and tell quite renduntant, rotting in my hand waiting for a titan. Is there any matchup where you feel quite confident about showing an eldrazi?
Also, at the cost of being laughed by the whole room, isn't [CARD:=]explore[/CARD] worth a try? The more i look at it, the more i find it appetible: it's almost a time walk, providing you a card and allowing you to put a second land into play in the same turn. At worst, it cycles itself (at sorcery speed, i know)
There are several reasons for choosing explore over show & tell. The biggest being if your meta is flooded with Knight of the Reliquary. I also choose to show & tell Primeval titan over an Eldrazi 99.99% of the time. I HATE showing in an eldrazi and only do it as a very last ditch effort, or as bait. However, the matchups where show & tell completely wins you the game, mostly RUG, you want as much as them as possible. Since RUG has a very high meta presence, I opted for a 4-of. The card is also your best play against combo decks game 1, often will win you the game against "fair" decks, and is one of the few cards that can propel your mana into absurd combinations via candelabra on the same turn, I opt for a 4-of build.
Explore is not a completely dead card, and with thespian's stage it might merit a re-investigation, with an even higher land count. For now, I am opting for Show & tell over other options. I am currently testing a super-secret card in the place of the slot Explore would take the place of, and will give you the results soon.
This is my new version of the deck post-Gatecrash. Took some tweaking, but I like it where it is now. Expect changes to the sideboard especially, but this is what I will be doing my first few events with withstanding some playtesting breakthroughs.
// Lands
4 [FNM] Cloudpost
4 [TSP] Vesuva
4 [SOM] Glimmerpost
1 [WWK] Eye of Ugin
4 [U] Tropical Island
4 [ZEN] Misty Rainforest
1 [WWK] Bojuka Bog
1 [ZEN] Island (2a)
1 [LG] Karakas
3 [GTC] Thespian's Stage
1 [ZEN] Forest (2)
1 [IA] Glacial Chasm
// Creatures
4 [M11] Primeval Titan
1 [ROE] Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 [ROE] Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 [ROE] Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
// Spells
4 [ZEN] Expedition Map
4 [UL] Crop Rotation
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
3 [AQ] Candelabra of Tawnos
3 [US] Exploration
3 [US] Show and Tell
3 [MR] Oblivion Stone
// Sideboard
SB: 4 [CMD] Flusterstorm
SB: 1 [LG] The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
SB: 1 [MR] Oblivion Stone
SB: 2 [FUT] Venser, Shaper Savant
SB: 2 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [MR] Chalice of the Void
SB: 2 [R] Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 [ZEN] Mindbreak Trap
To chew the fat, I thought I'd at least report my goldfishing a fake Well of Knowledge since my real one should be coming in the mail soon. I love it so far. Starting around turn 4, I've so far had the mana to pay for an extra card without losing my Turn 4 play, and progressively moving to 2-3 extra cards without losing tempo in the following turns. And this makes a great follow-up to Primeval Titan, where the card advantage competes with Kozilek. And with Candelabra... I don't think an existing opponent would realistically let me draw an additional 13 cards and then cast the Emrakul I got in the bunch, but I know I want to try. That being said, this is a card that I have to test in real life for the full intricacy because my opponent's will be drawing cards off them too. Speculatively though, because of their decks tend to not be built to have mana for that sort of effect, they shouldn't be able to get too much of an upper hand over me (sans the MUD player I know, who will love this card game one). And there are neat tricks that I can do with deck manipulation since each extra card is a separate activated ability.
Also an interesting thing that happened with my mained Venser, Shaper Savant today. I was playing a casual match with someone who'd come to our prelease game, they were playing OmniShow. Turns out putting Venser in off their Show and Tell is. Also turns out that when they try Show and Tell #2, I can induce scoop phase by resolving Crop Rotation to retrieve Karakas.
Your enthusiasm for the deck is great, however. Making your turn 4+ plays "better" is exactly what the deck doesn't need. The major threat to the deck is estabilishing your mana between land drop 3-4, something well does nothing for. I think a more valid replacement comparison would be a trinket mage. For Trinket mage, would they generate comparable amounts of advantage, and the answer is nearly always "yes," especially if you still have ugin in the deck.To chew the fat, I thought I'd at least report my goldfishing a fake Well of Knowledge since my real one should be coming in the mail soon. I love it so far. Starting around turn 4, I've so far had the mana to pay for an extra card without losing my Turn 4 play, and progressively moving to 2-3 extra cards without losing tempo in the following turns. And this makes a great follow-up to Primeval Titan, where the card advantage competes with Kozilek. And with Candelabra... I don't think an existing opponent would realistically let me draw an additional 13 cards and then cast the Emrakul I got in the bunch, but I know I want to try. That being said, this is a card that I have to test in real life for the full intricacy because my opponent's will be drawing cards off them too. Speculatively though, because of their decks tend to not be built to have mana for that sort of effect, they shouldn't be able to get too much of an upper hand over me (sans the MUD player I know, who will love this card game one). And there are neat tricks that I can do with deck manipulation since each extra card is a separate activated ability.
Also an interesting thing that happened with my mained Venser, Shaper Savant today. I was playing a casual match with someone who'd come to our prelease game, they were playing OmniShow. Turns out putting Venser in off their Show and Tell is
All this venser talk is moot, anyone who has read the development and previous pages of this thread, something you clearly did not do, knows why venser is in the deck.
Excitement about the deck is great, but your statements ring of someone who glanced at previous night's reading while class was forming and asked how the chapter ended in class.
Additionally, I've been having a lot of trouble getting the double blue for Venser in the first place. If you're going out of your way to warp your mana development g1 to include casting Venser, that's probably have damaging effects to your overall game plan.
As for Well, I'm a huge fan of underused Weatherlight cards, as anyone who knows me knows, but I'm inclined to agree that it's not really what the deck wants to be doing. In a good card in theory, which is why you've had so much success with it in goldfishing -- but once you make it to practice, I've found it lacking (I tried it in Nic Fit once upon a moon). Hell, something like Staff of Nin would be better, because it lets you ping of annoyances and draw cards without any additional mana investment (or allowing your opponents to draw more wastelands).
@Jer -- I hadn't considered just straight up adding the Thespians. I'd dismissed them as a pipe-dream since cutting Vesuva for them seemed all kinds of poor, and I couldn't fit them in besides. In your testing so far (assuming you've done any), how has the deck's stability been without Brainstorm? Also, how do you feel about something like -1 Top, -1 Candle for +2 Trinket Mage in that specific build? Gaining +2 effective copies of Candle seems like it would be important with the Thespians, in particular, since they essentially have to timewalk themselves in order to become useful, and Candle could get around this.
Also: have opposing Pithing Needles been a problem for you? I've found going all-in on O-Stone to be questionable since many decks are sideboarding Pithing Needles now -- especially aggressive ones that don't care if you're durdling with Top or Candlestick. They Needle the sweeper, and then crash in until you die. I'm thinking I might try a split between All is Dust and O-Stone -- but I'm also not sure if that's just a perception by virtue of who I'm testing with, as opposed to an accurate reflection of a real issue.
Last edited by Arianrhod; 01-28-2013 at 11:55 AM.
Opposing Needles have never been a problem for me... They're easily repeal-able...
Of course, I could also just be a lucky SOB who always has a repeal ready for an opposing needle haha!
funny you mention this, I already made a cut of -1 candele 1+ trinket mage, and my "real" testing has been to determine if I need a 2nd trinket mage main, or if I just "want" a 2nd one main.
I have had O stone named, and it certainly is annoying, but the same philosophy of why I am not running needle applies to others running needle. If they have needle they dont' have as many threats, which buys me more time. A tradeoff either way, one which I am able to deal with in time. You still have Ulamog, and Beast Within may become necessary in the SB, as I mentioned, the SB is in a large state of flux at the moment. And JUST when I was finally happy with the deck they go and print cards that improve it.Also: have opposing Pithing Needles been a problem for you? I've found going all-in on O-Stone to be questionable since many decks are sideboarding Pithing Needles now -- especially aggressive ones that don't care if you're durdling with Top or Candlestick. They Needle the sweeper, and then crash in until you die. I'm thinking I might try a split between All is Dust and O-Stone -- but I'm also not sure if that's just a perception by virtue of who I'm testing with, as opposed to an accurate reflection of a real issue.
New build doesn't run repeal.
Oh, I was referring to the old build before Thespian's Stage... But then again, yeah there's really no point in assessing an old build...
That isn't to say that repeal doesn't belong in thespian's stage build, it might. testing is wildly fluctuent atm. I didn't mean to come across as condescending. All avenues of innovation are welcome, so long as they have testing and logic behind them.
I'm not 100% sold on 3 copies of Thespian's Stage yet if it means I have to put all of my chips on Oblivion Stone... Still, I would really want to give this a go. I guess I can simulate with proxies before I pick up my copies haha!
Is this deck still worth running without access to Show and Tell? and if so, what would be a viable card to replace the beast?
I may try Well of Knowledge in place of one of the Trinket Mages.
I thought Venser was in the side-board for non-Aggro strategies to amplify the control aspect of the deck in the post-board as an extra wrench in combo and help force our resolutions and disrupt the field presence of control all the while serving as a pressure point to draw attention away from the future incoming threats of Titans. That's the impression doing a search for Venser gave me. Was I mistaken?
If not, Venser can hold his own against Delver and Red to at least venture into seeing how he plays game one because the potential abuse of a repeat-able Repeal/Remand via Karakas is something that grabbed my attention. Everyone here should already be aware of it. I'm not saying anything shocking or new. I'm just pushing the established shenanigans with Venser all the way up to Game one and side him out if he won't help for the rest of the match or side more in if they will.
Eh, just calling me Wheatley would probably be a more apt metaphor, because after all, this is for science. The worst that could happen is that my careless and misguided search for potential cards inspires a scrub to build a bad version of the deck that scrubs out round 2 of whatever premiere event. Everything else is just dialogue.
This may come across as sounding odd, but Rock Lee suggested Explore. The reason being that it serves the same basic function as Show in Tell that it accelerates Primeval Titan, but rather than cheating him in, you curve into him naturally a turn or two faster. And with Sensi's Divining Top, it's not that hard to manipulate it into a live card. Granted it makes hardcasting Titan harder, but it's budget. Summoning Trap and Green Sun's Zenith also carry over the ability to cheat in the Titan without having to worry about the Titan itself being countered, but they are either more mana intensive and/or carry the risk of whiffing altogether.
Last edited by Mockingbird; 01-28-2013 at 11:07 PM. Reason: Adding commet
Thank you for a quick reply, but in that same sense, I cannot afford candelabra or tropical islands, and if I could find a decent (budget) mono green (hopefully slightly optimized) I would love that.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote