True. I just think it might be clunky with how I'm building the deck to be. I'm trying to add more control effect to be more stablized in control and varrient matchups to the deck without getting rid of discard effect because it's really a powerful and cost effective spell.Originally Posted by Esper3k
That's what I did, for pretty much the reasons you listed. No Dazes, two Spell Pierce (which might still be too much), one Flusterstorm and two Misdirection. In black-heavy metas it might be worth playing Divert instead of Spell Pierce since there are currently not so many non-discard spells I need to counter with this deck (mostly Planeswalkers).
Having Thoughtseize in this deck would be a great thing for sure, but I'm wary about Wasteland as well, especially when coupled with Delvers and cheap taxing counters. As it is, I am very often able to play/fetch only basics until the turn I go off. Let us know how big of a problem Wasteland is in your testing.
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
Clique is better against control since it also gives you a plan B in case you can't go off with Show & Tell.
Yea, I'll have to test that match-up when i get the chance before this weekend comes up. With all the matches that I've played against Rug Delver, it seems like it always have enough counters to everything I had. I get stifled once or twice, but that really isn't a problem with the games that I've played. The version of Rug Delver I had played had Spell Snares in it so it was countering Burning Wish. I think by having Red Elemental Blast is a good choice for possible extra protection to the combo theoretically. The sad thing is that Rug Delver also plays the same thing. Maybe play an overmaster in the side like 2 instead of Red Elemental blast? In my testing with Overmaster, I feel like REB does the same thing almost, but Overmasters nets you 1 card before you cast Show and tell, if they don't counter it. Casting it also pressures your opponent to counter it. You can make them think you're show and telling and cast into a safe Burning Wish into a Show and Tell, but who knows. Most likely, if they don't counter it, they are doomed. I find that Personal Tutor is a must, and I think 1 intuition is very good.
I agree Stifle/Wasteland mana denial strat in Rug Delver is a challenge to deal with. That's why I've considered playing Abrupt Decay in the side and splash green as well (LOL) to get rid of Goyf and delver problems before we can cast Show and Tell. Or it might not be a problem. I don't know.
It will be challenging to clique if you're playing against Rug.
RUG isn't a deck you'd bring in Clique against since they don't typically pack much (if anything) relevant to drop off of Show & Tell.
I think clique is a bad option in terms of mana curve and build. I run 4 3 cc spells with 3 s n t/ 1 intuition. To add 2-3 vendilion clique will blow up my mana curve forcing me to possibly play a higher land count. My land count is about 20: 4 sol lands, 8 fetches and 8 lands. 5 are nonbasic and the 3 are basic.
If we want to keep it UR only, I think Stifle is better than Vendilion Clique in the sideboard. Stifle can stop whatever ETB card ability they put into play after Show and Tell. With Vendilion Clique, there is still a possibility of having them draw a threat to the combo. But I'd still like to try splashing black for 4 Thoughtseize in the sideboard. These are the common cards that can came down after SnT:
Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
Gaddock Teeg
Qasali Pridemage
Knight of the Reliquary
Angel of Despair
Oblivion Ring
Oblivion Stone
Detention Sphere
Spine of Ish Sah
Goblin Charbelcher
Helm of Obedience
Karakas
Stifle can answer most of them but unlike Thoughtseize - it can also discard counterspells and you can Burning Wish for them too game 1. My idea would be to side in 3-4 Thoughtseize and side out 4 Daze for game 2. Wasteland is always present so IF you're really worried about it then you can just add 1 basic swamp main.
True there's the small chance they can always draw a card off of Clique if you have to force them to bottom a card, but it's a statically very small one.
Most common cards (that you will care about) would probably be:
Knight of the Reliquary
Oblivion Ring
Detention Sphere
Venser, Shaper Savant
Karakas
Pithing Needle
Phyrexian Revoker
Emrakul/Griselbrand (in the mirror or vs Reanimator)
Honestly stuff like Teeg & Thalia you shouldn't really care about. Qasali Pridemage can be annoying if you dropped Omniscience but it's pretty underplayed right now in the format.
Stifle is fine, but it costs you extra mana the turn you're going off if you're not dropping Omniscience off of Show & Tell.
A pretty cute "free" Stifle effect you can use is Not of This World.
I wanted to bring up a discussion on how to beat Sneak Show - the pseudo-mirror - with this deck. The problem is that they only need to resolve a two-card combo (Sneak/Through the Breach + creature) to win while we need to assemble a three-card combo which can even be disrupted by them dropping the appropriate creature (Emrakul if we have Emrakul, Griselbrand if we have Burning Wish). Furthermore, the Wishboard doesn't leave me space for Pyro- or Hydroblasts, making my best sideboard strategy
-4 Griselbrand
-2 Misdirection
+3 Boseiju
+3 Stifle
hoping to use Stifle on fetchlands and keep them from reaching five mana (or at least making Spell Pierce effective against them). These sideboard cards are not great but better than what I take out for them.
What are your strategies?
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
My best idea of strategy to stop Sneak and Show is to board in pithing needle to stop them from casting Sneak Attack and using it. Since, this match-up usually causes a counter war, it's best to just to do this i fine. Also, if you can land a thoughtseize on them and take away their combo piece it's very effective.
Does anyone think that Jace is to clunky in this deck since it's basically a 3 card combo? Why do we need Jace if we're respectfully going Show and tell + Omni + Burning Wish/Emrakul/Griselbrand? I feel like his CC causes him to be to expensive to play when I'm short on mana. I feel like he should of been like a preordain to help me can-trip. In my list, I don't play any Preordains except 4 brainstorm, 4 Ponder, 1 Personal Tutor, and 2 Jace. I have 12 counterspells. What do you guys think on this?
Omniscience is generally the best way to beat Sneaky Show, imo.
Even if they drop Emrakul or Griselbrand, you may possibly:
1) Just kill them outright with Burning Wish
2) If you have Emrakul and they drop Emrakul, you still get the extra turn off of Omniscience. If you drop Griselbrand, you'll likely just auto win right there off of his card draw. If they have Griselbrand and you cast Emrakul off of Omniscience, you win.
Pretty much your worst case scenario off of dropping Omniscience is them dropping GB. Even if they drop GB, you have a chance to kill them off of Burning Wish (admittedly tougher to resolve through their GB draws) or just kill them with Emrakul.
For the lists still running JTMS, he's another out you have to their dudes when you drop Omniscience.
It's a tricky matchup for sure. A good Sneak player will try and quickly find a Griselbrand (and of course Sneak Attack), so I wouldn't really risk going off with only Omni + Burning Wish/Griselbrand (as mentioned, I actually board out the Griselbrands because the chance of them dropping one off Show and Tell are rather high) unless I really need to, i.e. they just dropped Sneak Attack and will activate it next turn. It's winnable (especially game one if they don't know what you play and cast Show and Tell themselves) but you have to assemble Omni + Show + Emrakul rather quickly, fourth turn at the latest unless you draw a handful of counterspells to slow them down.
Pithing Needle looks very strong here, but I don't know that there are enough applications outside the pseudo-mirror. What do you bring them in against?
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
What are some people's thoughts on Rob V.'s mono blue omni-tell deck with dream halls? I believe in my honest opinion that his deck is the real deal. I believe its the perfect deck for omniscience to have his home in with enter the infinite. They were both meant to be played together with dream halls. I totally believe that what we have here and now is just a worse show and tell deck, worse than sneak and show. With dream halls, we can just pitch a blue spell to cast enter the infinite rather than go through the usual line of play to do the same. This deck makes it simplified for us to win.
We have some solid cards in the Omniscience list - just barely not enough for a solid 60 card Legacy deck.
My thought about the "last slots" in the list:
MD Daze in multiples has been bad
Thoughtseize is OK, but splashing for black causes more Wasteland trouble than the splash is worth. My main issue is that Thoughtseize only protects against T1 discard effect when I am going first (Thoughtseize to take out their Thoughtseize, basically).
Overmaster: you don't want to draw them against non-counter decks. multiples tend to be horrible.
Misdirection is too heavy on blue cards to run in multiples in tandem with the FoW (at least in a 2 or 3 color build)
Spell Pierce and Flusterstorm are best at protecting your hand from discard effects - but only when on the play, otherwise you get hit T1
Lim-Dul's Vault is OK to set up the combo (much better T2 than B.Wish) because it can find any missing piece, OK because it's a blue card, but opens up the manabase for Wasteland and can be horrible in the end game if run in multiples (does not cantrip for Omniscience, so can end shutting up the storm count)
Jace is mana-heavy, but - rather surprisingly - he does provide us with a non-Show and Tell alternative win condition. Planeswalker multiples are exceptionally bad, though.
Because all of the aforementioned cards have diminishing marginal utility = you usually never want to have multiples in hand (except Thoughtseize), I have tried some 1-1-1-1 splits.
(Mental note: Sneak Attack seems to trump that whole list as the MD cards #57-60)
Deck weaknesses:
Very vulnerable to opponent's T1 on the play discard effect
Heavy reliance on SnT (at least without using Dream Halls) combined without enough counter support to win big counter wars over it on the casting turn
T2 Burning Wish to set up the combo gives away too much information for the opponent
If that is how you feel about the blue red list you should try this list out. It addresses a lot of the concerns you have touched on. The disruption package is strong and diversified. The list is a bit lower in the cantrip department, I only have it that way because a great deal of the time with more preordain it felt like I was just cantriping into air. There is no burning wish because I was worried about wasteland.
Artifact
2xLotus Petal
Enchantment
4xOmniscience
Instant
4xBrainstorm
2xDaze
4xForce of Will
3xLim-Dul's Vault
1xMisdirection
1xSpell Pierce
Creature
2xEmrakul, the Aeons Torn
2xGriselbrand
Sorcery
1xDeath Wish
1xDuress
2xPersonal Tutor
4xPonder
1xPreordain
4xShow and Tell
4xThoughtseize
Land
2xAncient Tomb
1xBoseiju, Who Shelters ..
3xIsland
4xMisty Rainforest
4xPolluted Delta
1xSwamp
2xUnderground Sea
1xVerdant Catacombs
Sideboard
Artifact
4xGrafdigger's Cage
1xPithing Needle
Instant
3xEchoing Truth
2xFlusterstorm
1xSpell Pierce
1xStifle
Creature
1xUlamog, the Infinite G..
Sorcery
1xEnter the Infinite
1xInquisition of Kozilek
Lost in the finals* of 2 smallish PAX events going 10-2-2 with the following omniscience list: http://pastebin.com/zVBWKd4g
Tournament 1 beat Belcher 2-0, High Tide 2-1, Dredge 2-1, GW Enchantress 2-0, ID Dredge, 12Post 2-0, GW Enchantress 1-2
Tournament 2 beat Esper Blade 2-0, 12Post 2-0, Omniscience Mirror 2-1, RUG Delver 2-1, ID UWr Delver, UR Delver 2-1, RUG Delver 0-2
If anyone has any questions about my particular list (it's slightly off from what I've seen in other lists around) or matchups hit me up. I haven't played any legacy since GP Denver due to grinding modern for PTQs, but this list still feels as good as it was a few months ago.
*5 rounds cut to t4
T: @feingersh
A few notions:
- Running 2 colors rather than 3 seems to be the right choice in a Wasteland-heavy meta, IMO.
- Boseiju is a very interesting card choice. Potentially much better than Overmaster. How satisfied are you with it so far?
- How satisfied are you with the manabase? Balancing between colorless sources is opening hand vs. being able to cast T2 LDV can be difficult.
- MD Death Wish gives access to SB bounce, which is a catch-all solution (Ensnaring Bridge, etc.). I like that.
- Your list has no recovery from opponent's on-the-play T1 Thoughtseize -> Show and Tell -> Surgical Extraction to SnT. Has happened to me in a tournament once, but then I just used B.Wish->SB SnT to win that game and the match.
I feel a lot like that myself. My countersuite is 2 Misdirection 2 Spell Pierce 1 Flusterstorm 0 Daze as I don't really want to draw more than one of them, sometimes not even one. That's with both Preordain and Griselbrand already maxed out (which I find to be a good thing).
Anyway, a T1 discard effect is not the end of the world with so many cantrips to find the combo again, second turn Hymn (maybe with a Deathrite on the board for Daze ) is more problematic, and those counterspells are good at stopping that while Misdirection and Flusterstorm also work well in counter wars.
Regarding monoblue Dream Halls Omniscience, I'd be interested in some testing results. Being able to combo off 2 cards + random blue card sounds awesome, but I'd be worried about one of them being run only as a 3-of and the other one costing five mana. It sounds more consistent (with Intuitions) but also slower, may be worth a try since speed often enough isn't the problem with this deck.
georgjorgeGeistreich sind schon die anderen.
I've been testing the Mono blue Omni-tell deck. I personally call it the Dream show because it uses Dream Halls. LOL Here are my thoughts:
-Cunning Wish is bad for this deck. It needs more counters to deal with control decks to even make it 50/50.
-Jace is terrible for mono blue version.
-Sensei top is not needed.
-The deck is smooth being 1 color. Having less unplayable hands is less possible. Almost every hand is playable.
-Setting up a win is much easier and less problematic.
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