To say my mana base is greedy is an understatement. There are a number of times that I find myself needing to fetch a land that makes both R/W mana - so I play a land that makes both of those colors. If Wooded Foothills could fetch a Scrubland I'd be playing one of those as well.Originally Posted by Megadeus
Pretty much this. The only way Sneak and Show really beats the 4 Color Loam is to get a Sneak Attack down - so if we can games that it is pretty much game over for them. It is also an ace VS high tide, hive mind, and Lands to name a few other decks it hoses.Also what spurned you to play slaughter games? is it just due to the fact that some decks just auto lose to it?
My general rule of thumb is that unless I need a non-land spell to prevent myself from dieing in the next turn or two I will pretty much dredge my loam every time. The reason for this is that we play five cycle lands. Eventually you will dredge into one of these and then you get the best of both worlds - dredging a loam and drawing a card every turn.Also watching a bunch of your matches, there were a whole lot of times where you seemed to have a very mediocre hand and yet you just keep dredging loam. What is your general thoughts on when to dredge and when not too dredge?
Cheers,
~Jeff
And one other question that I have been thinking of for awhile but forgot about earlier, have you ever considered playing another green sun or two and maybe playing like singletons of Pridemage, and scavenging ooze? Or maybe just like an Ooze? I realize that deck space is very tight in this deck, but I just love having tool boxes and have been toying with the idea of Scavenging Ooze as a one of.
At one point this deck had 2-3 GSZ, 1 Pirdemage and 1 Ooze. As slots got tight, things got trimmed. Pridemage became much less relevant with the addition of Abrupt Decay and I felt Ooze didn't really lend and advantage in any of the deck's bad match ups to warrant keeping him around.
~Jeff
Huh I did not know that it had those at the beginning. So Ive been backtracking then... And I can agree. Ooze helps in fair matches where we should already be very good. Thanks for the feedback man! And I love the deck. It is wicked fun to play!
Jeff,
How do you find the Miracles matchup? Also, why the single Nantuko Monastery? I'm assuming it works as a recurring blocker/Jace-immune beater, but why it over Factory or something that could be used for mana like Treetop Village or even Stirring Wildwood?
I think the biggest thing is the deep seeded emotional understanding that the right play is the right play regardless of outcomes. The ability to make a decision 5 straight times, lose 5 times because of it, and still make it the 6th time if it's the right play. - Jon Finkel
"Notions of chance and fate are the preoccupation of men engaged in rash undertakings."
This is a very skill intense match up on both sides. It gives both players a lot of room to screw up. This is the one fair match up where I board in my hate bears. Thalia and Teeg put a lot of pressure on the UW player and only hinder us a small amount (because Loam isn't super good in this match up - too many basics).
I think Monastery is lightyears better than Factory. 4/4 First Strike allows it to beat loads of creatures a 2/2 (or 3/3) fold against. First Strike also means it beats a Batterskull Germ. I've tested Raging Ravine and Treeptop in this slot, but the entering tapped is a huge draw back when five of our lands already do this. Only so much room to have slow starts in legacy.Also, why the single Nantuko Monastery? I'm assuming it works as a recurring blocker/Jace-immune beater, but why it over Factory or something that could be used for mana like Treetop Village or even Stirring Wildwood?
~Jeff
I actually have personally cut Maze of Ith for another grove of the burnwillows. I think I will be going back to the Maze, but not having Maze as my only land in my opening hand has been kind of nice.
Also went 2-2 tonight with 4 color. Changes from hooglands list: +1 Grove of the Burnwillows, +2 Countryside Crushers; -1 Maze of Ith, -2 Bobs. I couldnt find 2 more Bobs again so I played the next best thing! ;)
Round 1: Maverick Phazonmuant from the source
Game 1: This one goes really really long. Almost 40 minutes worth. We start off jockeying for position, I get down early PFire and Grove, and have loam engine going. He has an early batter skull. I finally am able to kill off his stoneforge mystics, and get rid of the germ token with a Teeg out so he cant replay it. I also have Chalice at 1. At some point he plays Ooze and makes it like 7/7, but I have a PFire in hand and block his Ooze with a KOTR and fire it to kill it off. Finally I get down a couple of country side crushers and get a dreams to fire off. Despite him being at ~45 life I beat him down finally.
Game 2: He gets down KOTR + Sylvan Safekeeper and im somewhat stumbling on mana. He had surgical'd my PFires but I chump block for a coule of turns until I rip a Wish. Wish for Perish and swing back the momentum in my favor and finally dreams him out of the game.
1-0
Round 2: Junk Depths
Game 1 he makes a Turn 3 marit Lage, I have countryside crusher who is big but he cant race a 20/20 sadly...
Game 2 I mistakenly don't play the chalice in my hand and instead opt to try to Bob plsu Sylvan Library to gain card advantage. He ends up making a turn 4 Lage and I dont find the Karakas.
1-1
Round 3: 4 color... Stuff. Nedleeds from the source
He had a build somewhat similar to Team Italia, with the standard RWB stuff, but splash green for decay.
Game 1:I get down 2 KOTR after a chalice on 1 and they become 10/10's after a devastating dreams.
Game 2: He has a hand with double inquisition, but he draws some crap while I get a loam engine with 2 cycle lands and PFires going. He never really draws anything and just scoops when I get a crusher out.
2-1
Top 8: Miracles w/Blood Moon Alphastryk from the source
Game 1 goes very long. I get a chalice on one after he forces my first chalice. He terminuses away my country side crusher who was about to go huge. But I green sun for 3, then as I am about to slam my KOTR into play I remember how good teeg + Chalice is vs him. Put in Teeg and slowly my Bob + Teeg knock him down to 3. He DSpheres my chalice of the void, and I mistakenly decay it, for some reason thinking it comes back with one counter... He STPs my Teeg, then plays Energy field. On my turn I could Dreams for one which would kill my Bob, but I have PFire to kill him, to get rid of the field but I dont realize it until after I ship the turn. He plays RIP and locks me out for a LONG time. After him getting a couple of small entreats and me killing off the angels My Sylvan Library finally digs into an Abrupt decay and my KOTR and Crusher that have been sitting around kill him.
Game 2 I mull to six but keep a sweet one of double mox diamond, 3 lands and crusher. Oh yeah. All in baby lol. I T1 Crusher. He plays EE for 0 and blows up my Moxes, countryside gets huge, but unfortunately I dont ever hit another land drop. My crusher actually got to lethal on T3 thanks to me milling like 7 lands in a row off of his upkeep trigger. Unfortunately he Terminuses and I die from Jace. This is definitely a game where having the Bobs would have been excellent.
Game 3 I am tilted a bit after that raping and he goes T2 Meddling Mage naming Decay while I have 2 decays in hand. T3 Meddling Mage naming Burning Wish, and T4 Jace into T5 Blood Moon. Yep. Sad day as the awkward mana base finally gets me and the whole game I had Teeg and KOTR stuck in my hand with only Grove of the burnwillows, Dryad Arbor, and Bayou in play.
2-2
Overall the deck was great in my opinion as usual. Im sure that if I had access to more Bobs I would have 3-1'd, and if I had been playing better probably 4-0'd. The other guy at the store playing the deck 3-1'd I believe (Beating the dreaded omni-show on the way). This deck is a very powerful deck. Blood moon is rough, but at major events it isnt a card that you really have to worry about too much, and with Mox Diamonds plus a basic forest, it is not too difficult to get Decay mana. It was kind of funny that I played against 3 other major sourcers though... Oh well. Had a great night, the deck is still wicked fun to play and hopefully next week I can borrow Bobs!
Also does anyone have any suggestions as to other possible replacements for Bobs just incase? I think Crushers are solid as being huge and stuff was sweet, but Im always down to try other things!
I am on here too, I just don't post nearly as much as the rest of them. And game two you could have not died that turn by instead of cycling and searching for karakas, just punishing firing my D.Shaman with your mox diamonds, making a land drop then wishing for chainer's edict and edicting the token, which would have left me with basic forest in play to your 4 lands and 2 mox diamonds.
Damn did not realize everyone at Super was on the source lol. But see! So many mis plays and I still somehow win games... This is a powerful deck. I cant wait until Im not totally awful at this game. Like I said, I think that if I had played tighter then I would have been 3-1 or 4-0 tonight. Sadly between not having key cards like Bobs and making misplays I lose games... Its rough but you know. First World problems.
I'm the other guy who has been playing Hoogland Loam at the store Megadeus is at. My list is the same as Hoogland's except for +1 Volrath's Stronghold main instead of the basic Forest. Tonight I also put the Bojuka Bog main (cutting a Burning Wish) because it's great against roughly third of our LGS. I replaced it in the sideboard with a Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale because I can. Unfortunately my game memory is a lot worse than Megadeus's, so bear with me.
~~~~
Round 1 was against Jund Zombies. It's a pretty sweet deck; it has Carrion Feeders, Lotleth Trolls, Cabal Therapies, Basking Rootwallas, Vengevines, Gravecrawlers, Bloodghasts and Angers in it. I believe I boarded out -1 Teeg and -1 Loam for +1 Decay and +1 Tabernacle.
Game 1 he kept a sketchy keep and his only play was a Gravecrawler for some time. I went to town with a Bob and a Knight and he never drew a green source for Decay before my Knight got lethal around T5~
Game 2 he has a Pithing Needle for Wasteland and I respond with a Chalice on one. He then has two Lotleth Trolls that I simply can't deal with. I cycle some removal on his trolls to fog them for a few turns but I can't draw a Knight to block or a Wish (for Perish) and I eventually die after choosing to not dredge for a few turns. At one point I could have potentially Volrath'd back my Bob to draw more cards, but I didn't think I'd get more than 1 draw out of Bob before I had to chump.
Game 3 he starts off pretty quickly with Lotleth Trolling away an Anger and a Rootwalla and bashing for 5 on like turn 2. I hastily assemble Loam and get a Knight into play. He discards a Filth and bashes me down to 6 with a Bloodghast, Rootwalla and the Troll in play. On my turn I eat my Bayou with my Knight to turn off swampwalk. On his return swing I go to 1 after Mazing his Troll and eating a Rootwalla pump. I untap and Devastate his Dreams, eating all my lands and keeping my Maze against his Bloodghast and get there.
1-0
Round 2 was against Omnitell. The player piloting it swapped decks with Phazonmuant for the tournament (he has like 90% money rate with Maverick). I boarded -3 Decay and -1 Punishing Fire for +3 Thalia, +1 Teeg.
Game 1 on the draw I keep a hand with Chalice, and proceed to rip the Mox Diamond to play it turn 1. He brainstorms but bricks on the Force. Turn 2 I play out a Knight and turn 3 I Devastate his Dreams (off the top) to put the game away with Knight.
Game 2 I Chalice on turn 2. He Show and Tells in his Omniscience but I put in Teeg. He has the Cunning Wish and I assume I'm just dead to Eladamri's Call->Emrakul, but apparently Phazonmuant's list didn't have the Emrakul main. My opponent showed his inexperience with the deck by boarding in the Wipe Away, so his only answers to Teeg in the board were Slaughter Pact and Vision Charm. He gets the Vision Charm, and it promptly gets countered by Chalice. We laugh about over the next 10 turns as Teeg slowly, slowly beats him to death with his walking stick.
2-0
We had 17 people tonight, but for some reason are only playing 3 rounds. I ID with Alphastryk playing UW Miracles. We play it out for fun. I boarded -3 Punishing Fire, -1 Loam and -1 Knight for +3 Thalia, +1 Teeg and +1 ADecay.
Game 1 is a huge grindfest with him playing out all his RIPs and multiple Jaces. I manage to stick an early Sylvan and eventually filter my way to a Burning Wish->Reverent Silence for 2 RIPs, saving an Abrupt Decay for his last. I grind my way through Jaces with a Dreadbore and then a Punishing Fire after he uses it as a 4 mana Unsummon against Bob. In the end I manage to kill him with Nantuko Monastery.
Game 2 he sticks a turn 4~ Blood Moon and I've got all these sweet Wastemountains and Nantuko Mountains. I start taking 8 from my Libraries as I dig for Mox Diamond and when I finally find one he Forces it. The turn after he assembles Helm-RIP.
Game 3 I keep a hand with turn 1 Thalia, but manage to brick on lands for the next 6 turns. Top 8 is announced then but this game was most definitely a loss.
2-0-1 (but really probably 2-1)
Quarterfinals of top 8 was against slightly budget Goblins (no Ports). I boarded -1 Teeg and -1 Bojuka Bog for +1 ADecay and +1 Tabernacle.
Game 1 I mulligan and begin with double Mox Diamond into Loam, then a turn 2 Knight. He has a T2 Vial into Stingscourger into Ringleader, but it's too slow when I Devastate his Dreams, leaving him with only a Vial. My Knight 2 shots him after I Punish his feebly Vialed in blockers.
Game 2 he as a T1 Vial, but I have a T1 Abrupt Decay for it. He has a Tin-Street Hooligan to nuke my Mox, and my hand is suddenly a lot worse with 2 Bobs, 2 Tranquil Thickets and a Taiga in play. I draw a GSZ and use it to get a Dryad Arbor and play out a sad Thicket. He Wastes my Taiga and battles. I find a Maze of Ith on my turn and play it. He makes a Goblin Chieftain and I Maze one of his attackers going to 16. I rip a Wooded Foothills, grabbing a Badlands to play Bob. He makes a Lackey and battles with everyone. I Maze his Lackey and decide that I need to trade my Bob away (???) away for his Tin-Street. I play out another Bob, desperately needing to find white mana for the Knight in my hand. On his turn he makes a Goblin Matron and finds a Ringleader with it. He attacks with everyone again and this time I don't trade my Bob away (Mazing Lackey). Bob finds me white mana and I play a 6/6 Knight. His Ringleader finds him a Kik-Jiki, a Krenko and another Ringleader but I manage to Devastate his Dreams when I untap and 2-shot him with Knight.
3-0-1 Top 4 split!
TL;DR Hoogland Loam is super sweet and super powerful. I think it has pretty advantageous matchups against most of the field sans combo and completely crushes other fair dork decks. Wrathageddon is too stronk.
Played 10 rounds against Omnitell tonight, went 8-2 against it with the list I posted previously. I'm convinced this isn't a bad matchup whatsoever for my list if I have a chalice or devastating dreams, and is wildly in my favor if I have both. The only games I lost is when he had all 3 combo pieces in hand and had it by turn 2. However, this is highly unlikely, and as I've found, they -rarely- have it.
It's simply too slow of a combo deck--it's a 3 card combo, they don't run many sol lands, their only relevant counter is force, chalice on one forces them to naturally draw the combo, devastating dreams on their second turn is often a blow out. More than one game I blew up both his islands, he had 2 more islands in hand, but never found a third source of mana and just died to Goyfs. I brought surgicals in every game and found them often which was lucky, they don't do a ton here, but more than one time I simply confirmed that there was no force and jammed Dreams on them.
Between Chalice, Dreams, and the potential for a fast clock I don't think combo is that terrible for me. Also--if you're not playing Hooglands list to have a shot at combo, I guess I'm wondering what you're doing? That's literally the only upside to splashing white, to have a better combo matchup--you get Knight to tutor Karakas and Bojuka Bog, and you get Teeg to shut down most other combo, and I guess Thalia out of the board.
Inherently, running Chalice means you have a decent shot at getting there vs combo. I've found early Devastating Dreams to be wildly effective against most combo since they often only run like 15-18 land.
However, so far with my list I've beaten Sneak And Show, Omnitell (pretty positive this is way in our favor), and ANT. I'm confident elves is a bye, TES and ANT get shit on by dreams and chalice, high tide I need to test, I want more testing vs sneak and show (only beat hollywood in tournament).
@Tyrio Go go Wrathageddon! Im nervous as to if and how the store responds to us doing so well...
@Kich sounds about right. What I have learned just from watching various matches is that the deck generally needs its hand massage spells to find the combo since it does need a few cards to go off, and also, similar to storm decks, it needs to actually have a fair amount of cards in hand to go off. I did not realize how good Liliana is vs that deck. It seems like SnT is basically a storm deck that doesnt have a storm engine to actually win the game unless they are topdecking like a champ. At least Sneak variants had the ability to oops a griselbrand or emrakul into play and win on the back of T2 fatty. Like you said, chalice plus a bit of either land hate or a quick clock is actually good enough most of the time barring insane top decks.
Does anyone in here run white but not run Thalia and Teeg? And I have beaten Omni and Tin Fins (havent played TES or ANT yet) with Hoogloam (HAH!). But Im sure that the tin fins game is similar to what I would be facing when it comes to TES at least. Chalice on 1 is a tad weaker (but still very strong) vs ANT. I did lose to hyper genesis but that dude was a sack... And the first time I played vs him I misboarded. I dont hate the combo MU. Its definitely rough, but most of the time it is very winnable.
@ Megadues- Don't cut Maze, it basically gives all your Knights vigilance along with being VERY solid against a lot of decks.
@Jeff H- Do you think it's possible that -1 GSZ, -1 Arbor, +1 Grove, +1 Bob is where you want to be? I'm not seeing GSZ being that great here, except mainly being Knight #5. I know it fetches a few combo hate pieces in the board, but you can just jam more Thalias instead. Just a thought, stay golden.
Team Hammafist-We don't take kindly to those who don't take kindly."Got any trade boogas?"
This right here. It allows for SO much flexibility.
I really do not think this is right. GSZ+Arbor acts as a "mox" #5, Knight #5 and a Teeg #2 main deck. Personally, I've never wanted a 3rd Grove. I really don't want the 4th Bob back. Since I cut back to three the number of games where 2 of them gum up my hand has gone way down.@Jeff H- Do you think it's possible that -1 GSZ, -1 Arbor, +1 Grove, +1 Bob is where you want to be? I'm not seeing GSZ being that great here, except mainly being Knight #5. I know it fetches a few combo hate pieces in the board, but you can just jam more Thalias instead. Just a thought, stay golden.
Also Dryad Arbor allows your Wooded Foothills to block Goblin Lackies/Unflipped Delvers. Plus it protects your active Knight from edict effects.
As mentioned above - Maze is never a cut. It allows for a lot of Utility. Just remember when you are counting your lands - Maze counts as a spell. Another fetch *might* be useful, but honestly I already find myself running out of fetchable lands quite often in most games with my current list. Between Loam/Knight I generally find them pretty quickly. Plus all my existing lands serve a purpose - not sure I'd want to cut any of them.
Someone commented on missing Bobs - I have actually been kicking around cutting these... Once the new legend rules go into effect I might be trying:
-3 Bob
+1 Sylvan
+1 Dark Depths
+1 Stage
I'm also kicking around playing 61-62 cards in my main deck. The increase simply being main decking the Bog and the 4th Decay I keep in the board right now.
~Jeff
Pretty much every deck on this list also gets hosed by a Slaughter Games as well :)
~Jeff
Yeah, I've been thinking about cutting the surgical for slaughter games which is most likely what will be happening soon.
Can you reliably get to 4 mana fast enough against the combo deck though? I suppose Chalice at 1 will buy time, which also would go against your Surgicals.
Chalice on something buys times normally. Plus you can Games turn 3 on the play - fast enough some times all on it's own.
~Jeff
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