All B/R update speculation.

[Dice_Box]

i was joking at the time, but i could actually see them printing it as a sorcery.

Well they tried it as a creature. It is not much of a stretch to think they will ramp it up at some point. I wonder if at that point SnT will finally meet Survival in the big old paper shredder than is a dropping secondary market price.

[Dzra]

I fail to see the suppressive nature of Show and Tell. The last SCG results featured 3 non-Blue decks (one of which won the whole thing) and 4 combo decks where Show and Tell isn't their primary win condition. You can't say that there were no skilled players sporting Show and Tell in this event either. Drew Levin is in the top 16 with Omniscience/Dream Halls. As of now, Show and Tell is merely another good deck in a field of good decks.

[Megadeus]

I dont think that SnT is warping the meta too much, and I dont think it should e banned. It is just horribly unfun to play, play against, and watch. My original point was about Griselbrand not really SnT. I just hate how you can easily derp your way to 14 cards.

[Lord Seth]

they could reprint show and tell in standard and it wouldnt cause a problem.

Uh...yes. Yes it would cause a massive problem. Right now Reanimator decks are strong, but they're kept in check by the fact they have to hardcast their creatures if their Unburial Rites plan fails (e.g. they don't get the Unburial Rites or lack a good way to throw a good creature into the graveyard or are getting hit with graveyard hate), but Show and Tell eliminates that weakness almost entirely by letting them plop down giant threats without the worry of getting them into their graveyard...and doing it a turn or two earlier than Unburial Rites can.

[apple713]

Uh...yes. Yes it would cause a massive problem. Right now Reanimator decks are strong, but they're kept in check by the fact they have to hardcast their creatures if their Unburial Rites plan fails (e.g. they don't get the Unburial Rites or lack a good way to throw a good creature into the graveyard or are getting hit with graveyard hate), but Show and Tell eliminates that weakness almost entirely by letting them plop down giant threats without the worry of getting them into their graveyard...and doing it a turn or two earlier than Unburial Rites can.

im sorry i have a tendency to think post rotation. So after innistrade rotates, reanimator dies, along with griselbrand. The "reanimator" deck becomes modern legal, and a good one but not format breaking. Not with all the Blue tron control and kiki combo and other stuff thats just about as quick.

I dont think that SnT is warping the meta too much, and I dont think it should e banned. It is just horribly unfun to play, play against, and watch. My original point was about Griselbrand not really SnT. I just hate how you can easily derp your way to 14 cards.

put some pressure on your opponent and they wont be able to derp to 14. Maybe 7. Maybe not even at all.

[Lord Seth]

im sorry i have a tendency to think post rotation. So after innistrade rotates, reanimator dies, along with griselbrand.

Trying to think "post rotation" when we have no idea about the contents of 1.5 sets is absurd. We only know about half of Magic 2014, and we don't know anything in Theros.

That said, I think even without Unburial Rites, Show and Tell would be too good. It goes very easily into a ramp deck (providing you with a viable backup strategy), and the ability to slam down giant threats as early as turn 2 is leagues beyond anything else you can do in Standard.

The "reanimator" deck becomes modern legal, and a good one but not format breaking. Not with all the Blue tron control and kiki combo and other stuff thats just about as quick.

"Blue tron control" is neither about as quick or even particularly good, and Kiki-Jiki combos (whether of the Birthing Pod variety or just a Splinter Twin deck) all have the weakness of creature removal being able to stop the whole shebang. Heck, a big reason why Splinter Twin hasn't been much of a force in the metagame for a while is that it's so vulnerable to creature removal. The reason Scapeshift still persists is that it doesn't care at all about creature removal.

I'm not sure what you're on with "reanimator" though. There's no need to even bother with that once Show and Tell is in the format. Through the Breach replaces Sneak Attack and you have good ol' Sneak and Tell in a format without the cards that help keep it in check.

But on Legacy, I doubt Show and Tell will get banned. The deck isn't anywhere near dominant. It's true a lot of people (including me) don't like it, but that's not a reason to ban something.

[Darkenslight]

But on Legacy, I doubt Show and Tell will get banned. The deck isn't anywhere near dominant. It's true a lot of people (including me) don't like it, but that's not a reason to ban something.

Trinisphere in Vintage restriction reasoning.

[Lemnear]

How can you pull out 3Sphere to prove your Point before mentioning the infamous Gentleman's Agreement and Vintage Apocalypse?

[Megadeus]

put some pressure on your opponent and they wont be able to derp to 14. Maybe 7. Maybe not even at all.

When it is turn 2... Not sure I am supposed to do lol.

[Johanovich]

13/16 decks running BS, and 14/16 decks was blue-based ;] - that's the sign of healthy meta. Look back 1,5 year we had Aggro, Tempo, Control, Middle-range, Combo (GY based, S&T based, Painter based, Storm etc).

Now in top16:

6 Combo in it (5 S&T based, 1 GY based reanimator)
5 Control (3 Deathrite Stoneblade, 2 BUG Shardless)
3 Middle-range (Maverick, Tezzerator, D&T)
2 Tempo - RUG, UWR

Not bad, quite balanced with Combo approaching sign, but when we look closer there are Decks (not archetypes) which build about 70% of meta, the diversification of metagame is much lesser then it was 1,5 year ago. Fast combo decks - mostly S&T - kills all Tier2-3 decks bacause they are too slow / don't have answers (read permission) vs turn 1 S&T.

So if you build a going to build a deck on actual meta you need:
-Win with S&T
-Win with Deathrite Shaman decks and BUG decks.

To goal first:
- Run permission -> Force of Will - mean 18 blue cards in deck and more Envelop/Flusterstorm OR run Red to have SB options like REB/Pyro
- Run discard -> thoughsieze -> mean running black - or have enough tempo to end game before he sculpt hand (like RUG try and die - looking on results) - this way doesn't work after SB (Leyline of Sanctity)
- Tax spells -> Thalia -> works only on turn..

To goal second:
- have answer vs bob/sfm/equips - a lot of removal or recurring removal like punishing fire - like Jund
- have answer vs jace/liliana sometimes - a lot of creatures, or discard/land destruction/stax effect - like Maverick or D&T

Like you see there is no deck that can achieve both goals, but what is worst - other decks can deal with even 1 goal to defeat one of them - thx to idiotic printing black noble hierarch/lavamancer/ooze hybrid.

That's why we have so flat metagame.

S&T, BUG Shardless, Deathrite Stoneblade - 25 % other decks.

Banning S&T would open again way to interact with permission/discard decks on long game for example Nic Fit / Aggro Loam / Goblins - which is totally owned by present S&T's.

I know that this respons is relatively late but just to highlight that your argument (and the aguments of others) can be used to think in another way as well.
You say that 1,5 years ago the meta was much more diverse, even with the inclusion of show and tell decks, and that nowadays the meta is much more flat. One could argue that this is not show and tell's fault but due to the appearance of deathrite shaman and omniscience. Therefore one could argue to ban one of these.

You say that show and tell makes decks like Goblins, Aggro Loam and Nic Fit impossible to play, but you could also say that deathrite prevents lackeys from connecting and allows for engineered plague to be played succesfully in the sideboard (even against elves), that he allows basics in 3-color decks which partially negates the advantage of veteran explorer and that he removes loam from your graveyard.

My point is that everybody points the finger towards show and tell to get banned and this is played in an unfair deck, but nobody wants deathrite banned because he is played in fair decks even though he is warping the meta as well.

Not that I'm advocating the banning of deathrite, omniscience or show and tell, just pointing out that show and tell is not the only card that currently warps the meta.

[Dice_Box]

Deathrite gets the title of "One drop Planeswalker" from some. So yea I agree he is a pain. But putting him next to SnT is just.... they are not even in the same league. You say ban Omniscience, I think thats not even touching half the problem. Omniscience is one of the more common cheats a SnT deck can drop but then again so is Brand, Dream halls, Sneak, Emrikal... SnT is a deck that is just not fun to play against. If you do not have a counter in your hand (and I do not play blue so I NEVER have one) then you can watch as turn one an island is dropped. Turn two a Sol land and then the game is over. Of course you can say that is just the perfect hand, but I will counter that by stating that with the options such as deck manipulation, Intuition, Personal Tutor and others blue has, what is a bad hand? Oh no I have only one of my two combo cards, best sit here with my counters, my tutors and my Brainstorms and slow the game to a crawl until I can win.

I really hate that style of play. Also as an Elf combo player I am not against Counters. I know they are needed. I do not want to see FoW removed, the issues that would create... But SnT, the crowning card in blues two card combo kinship. It is not helping diversify how the game is played. It limits the game, it forces you to play decks that can race it. You need to either play blue and have counters to deal with it, or you need to just resign yourself to just not enjoying your Tuesday nights (Or whatever night you play) because that card, that card means if you're not playing blue, well I try not to swear online but I am sure you can see where I am going. Reminds me a little bit like the reason 3sphere found itself restricted.

Now I know some of you will not agree with me, or you will point out that not everyone plays this deck at SCG events. I would like to counter that by stating that as an Australian I will most likely never get to play in an SCG event or any other real big event. For me this is a hobby. Now go on and tell me that all that matters is SCG finishes because I really want to know why those of us that play this game for fun need to be at the mercy of decks that are not fun just because they are not winning week in week out at an event that some of us will never ever get a chance to play at.

[Fatal]

@Johanovich You are right - printing Deathrite Shaman kill also a lot of archetypes - but does decks doesn't kill you turn 1-2-3, you can build deck which can handle them on long range by having better card quality/CA/more threads or just aimed to beat them in long game focused on their game plan (for example Lands with EE).

Let focus on edge where acceptable combo's aren't broken in summary will be only decks which can kill you instantly (without combat phase):

1 Card combo:

ANT:
Win: 7 Mana, 1 card Ad Naseam or 9 spells casted and 4 Mana
Protection: Discard
Restriction on build/play: low CMC of spells. Route 1 - Require Life.

Belcher:
Win 7 Mana, 1 card Belcher
Protection: Non
Restriction on build/play: no lands.

All Spells:
Win 4 Mana, 1 card New Age Hermit Druid
Protection: Discard
Restriction on build/play: no lands, Targeting card in GY which has more hate then spells on stack

2 Two Card combo:

1. All kind of S&T which kill instantly
Hive Mind:
Win 3 Mana, 3 cards S&T + HiveMind + Pact
Protection: Counters
Restriction on build/play: Non.
Omni:
Win 3 Mana, 3 cards S&T + Dread Halls/Omni/Griselbrand + Enter the Infinity/Cunning Wish/Griselbrand
Protection: Counters
Restriction on build/play:Non. Griselbrand route require life.

2. Reanimator - TinFins
Win: 3 Mana - 2 cards: Shallow Grave + Entomb
Protection: Discard / Counters
Restriction on build/play: Targeting card in GY which has more hate then spells on stack, require Life count.

3. Imperial Painter
Win: 6 Mana - 2 cards: Servant Painter + Grindstone
Protection: Counters and Vindicates for R if Painter in play.
Restriction on build/play: Based on creature in play. (Probably price of Imperial Painter :])

4. Cephalid Breakfast
Win: 3 Mana - 2 cards: Nomad En-Kor + Cephalid Ilusionist
Protection: Counters / Discard
Restriction on build/play: Targeting card in GY which has more hate then spells on stack, based on 2 creatures.

5. High Tide:
Win 7 Mana, 2 cards High Tide / Time Spiral
Protection Counters
Restriction on build/play: Non.

--------------------

Banned Combo's

1. Flash Hulk
Win 2 Mana, 2 cards Flash + Hulk
Protection: Counters
Restriction on build/play: Based on GY.

2. Hermit Druid
Win 3 Mana, UnSummoningSickness - 1 card - Hermit Druid
Protection: Counters/Discard
Restriction on build/play: Based on GY.

In conclusion:

1) Lowest Mana cost and card is reanimator TinFins which based on GY and Life its tide with S&T with Mana cost and its the lowest mana cost combo actually available. All which require less mana cost are banned (Flash) moreover of which require same mana cost is also banned.

2) Card count - Storm Ad N decks, Belcher, All Spells require only 1 card but they initial mana require is higher (4-7 mana) moreover they have quite big restriction on build (no lands/low CMC) so they have to generate much more mana which mean more cards to go off.

Question to community where is the edge between:
- CMC to combo off
- Card required
- Build/play restriction
where combo is acceptable in Legacy ?

[Zombie]

The other annoying thing about SnT is that it's pretty hard to hate. The combo mechanism itself is minimally vulnerable, and every single win condition needs different kind of hate. Coupled with SnT not being an engine deck like Storm/Dredge/Elves so it can run Leyline of Sanctity to just flat out cut off discard and Extract effects doesn't help. Brainstorming to hose Duress effects is one thing, but completely immunizing yourself from a brand of hate is just ridiculous. Like, imagine:

Leyline of Fuck You
If a white creature with an ability would enter the battlefield, exile it instead.

Leyline of What Is This Sh*t
Spells cast within the first three turns can't be countered by spells or abilities.

[catmint]

Now go on and tell me that all that matters is SCG finishes because I really want to know why those of us that play this game for fun need to be at the mercy of decks that are not fun just because they are not winning week in week out at an event that some of us will never ever get a chance to play at.

seems like you play the wrong format... Ever tried edh or modern? The existence of combo defines legacy. Without combo the diversity and dynamic would be reduced significantly to a bunch of goodstuff midrange decks dominating.

[Dice_Box]

seems like you play the wrong format... Ever tried edh or modern? The existence of combo defines legacy. Without combo the diversity and dynamic would be reduced significantly to a bunch of goodstuff midrange decks dominating.

I am happy with the format I play in. I play where there are people my age, playing with cards of power, cards I own and having a fun time. I mean I walked in with goblins to start with. Had owned the core of the deck since Onslaught.

No for me the issue is that SnT is a deck you can only beat if you play a colour. It's not that it is a combo deck. I play Elves, people play Strom locally, someone else has a Food Chain and Griffin deck. I mean one person plays with Aluren. These are combo decks. I have no issue with them. They all can be hated it without counters. They all have other weaknesses.

No the issue I have is that the only way to hate out SnT with any level of consistency is to play blue. I mean I own Goblins that run Stinger, Thalia and Karaks. I had Confusion in the ranks sided. In the end it all did very little. Unless you have a counter, so unless your playing blue, (mana tithe does not count) you can't do anything.

Now tell me how that is good for diversity. Limiting the game to one colour alone. I mean I know you need to play blue already of you want to win but let's at least pretend that the 4 other colours have a place.

Sorry for spelling and grammar issues. Typed on a mobile.

[lochlan]

I have is that the only way to hate out SnT with any level of consistency is to play blue. I mean I own Goblins that run Stinger, Thalia and Karaks. I had Confusion in the ranks sided. In the end it all did very little. Unless you have a counter, so unless your playing blue, (mana tithe does not count) you can't do anything.

Oblivion Ring

[Dice_Box]

Oblivion Ring

Good point. Run that too and forgot about it. Lovely catch all for most situations and a wonderful sideboard card. It is what I cut Confusion to run.

The issue with it is that it does not stop Omniscience once they combo off (Normally done in the same turn) Dream halls for the same reason and playing it is hard after Sneak Attack has lead into a card that just ate 6 of your permanents, most likely including your land.

[HammafistRoob]

Only works against SneakyShow.

[lochlan]

Only works against SneakyShow.

Or any other deck resolving a Show and Tell. Mono U Omniscience won't always have the Cunning Wish or Trickbind in hand. And even if they do have the Wish, that might be their only win condition in hand.

[Infinitium]

Even if they only have Wish they can still go for Firemind's Foresight into whatever answer and another Wish.