All B/R update speculation.

[Shawon]

By the way, can we either update the poll at the top of this thread, or just create a new poll for cards to ban or unban (that would serve as the new B&R Thread)?

Maybe this would be a good start for a new poll:

Brainstorm
Deathrite Shaman
Delver of Secrets
Griselbrand
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Sensei's Divining Top
Show and Tell
Tarmogoyf

[Megadeus]

Chimney Imp

[KobeBryan]

By the way, can we either update the poll at the top of this thread, or just create a new poll for cards to ban or unban (that would serve as the new B&R Thread)?

Maybe this would be a good start for a new poll:

Brainstorm
Deathrite Shaman
Delver of Secrets
Griselbrand
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Sensei's Divining Top
Show and Tell
Tarmogoyf

I don't see how any of these cards are bannable at this point.

[Shawon]

I don't see how any of these cards are bannable at this point.

Me neither. But those are the cards people talk about banning, hence them being the choices of a new poll. I hate it when people bitch about bannings as much as the next person, but it would be interesting to see a quantitative representation of what cards people want to see banned.

[Lejay]

You should include fetchlands in the list. They give a ton of power to staples like brainstorm, Deathrite, knight of the reliquary, ponder, sensei's top and the format is kind of crazy on 4 color good stuff decks right now. They are also in 90% of the decks.

[Shawon]

You should include fetchlands in the list. They give a ton of power to staples like brainstorm, Deathrite, knight of the reliquary, ponder, sensei's top and the format is kind of crazy on 4 color good stuff decks right now. They are also in 90% of the decks.

If you're not being sarcastic, why don't you make the new poll?

I actually once made a thread asking what people think about the notion of banning fetchlands. But it became pretty much established that killing off fetchlands in Legacy would kill a lot of the format diversity, even if it would severely hamper some of the more annoying decks.

[Lord Seth]

I wouldn't be opposed to a new topic, but honestly it would probably be best to just not bother with a poll on cards to ban at all. There's no real need for it.

[(nameless one)]

If Fetchlands were banned, maybe Brainstorm wouldn't be so broken. Same thing with Deathrite. It all comes back to Fetchlands. It would be interesting to see how the format looks without Fetchlands. Maybe it will warrant unbannings? I can see linear decks to be more viable than they are now, combo being less broken (all goes back to Brainstorm), Super Jaces wouldn't be so back breaking, Wasteland strategies would be more effective. Think about it...

[Lejay]

If you're not being sarcastic, why don't you make the new poll?

I actually once made a thread asking what people think about the notion of banning fetchlands. But it became pretty much established that killing off fetchlands in Legacy would kill a lot of the format diversity, even if it would severely hamper some of the more annoying decks.

I don't think it is possible wotc bans so many expensive cards at once and currently enjoy my fetchland-based decks so I don't feel I have to create it. There are a lot of bias that will prevent this ban and prevent myself from really wanting it, but if I was completely objective I would be militantly in favour of their ban.
I don't remember seeing this thread.

[Dark Ritual]

If Fetchlands were banned, maybe Brainstorm wouldn't be so broken. Same thing with Deathrite. It all comes back to Fetchlands. It would be interesting to see how the format looks without Fetchlands. Maybe it will warrant unbannings? I can see linear decks to be more viable than they are now, combo being less broken (all goes back to Brainstorm), Super Jaces wouldn't be so back breaking, Wasteland strategies would be more effective. Think about it...

Spanish inquisition and belcher don't run fetchlands and a fetchland ban would favor both an awful lot. Control decks losing the roll would just be 60/40 magic, either you have FoW or you lose. Not a fun format.

Unbanning WGD in legacy should have happened right after griselbrand was printed. What would you rather reanimate?

Yawgmoth's bargain is safe in legacy honestly assuming griselbrand is banned in the same announcement. Griselbrand is better than bargain in terms of what griselbrand can do (get griselbrand out, protect it and have it connect 3 times. Pretty easy.) Whereas bargain has to draw you into the win, griselbrand itself is the win condition. Creatures are easier to cheat into play than enchantments, and I'd rather ad nauseam with 1 floating versus resolving a bargain.

Recruiter isn't safe with cavern in the format. Maybe before cavern, but definitely not after. Stacking your deck with an uncounterable card into several uncounterable cards isn't fair.

Mind twist is something they should really unban. Oh joy, look at that spell pierce countering twist oh look at that mind twist early game. I see no reason to keep mind twist banned.

Earthcraft wouldn't break legacy in half. They should have unbanned it a while ago. Don't see it being super degenerate in legacy at all.

Black vise is a joke. Really don't care if its banned or unbanned, because it wouldn't have a serious impact on legacy at all.

Tolarian academy is not safe with the new legend rule at all. And its essentially the same as unbanning mishra's workshop in legacy/shouldn't happen. It would make MUD tier 1 overnight if unbanned and academy would be 100 dollars plus also overnight similar to gaea's cradle.

Please unban wheel of fortune. Card is busted in half and leagues better in comparison to all the other storm engines in the format. Card is even more busted with past in flames.

[emidln]

Yawgmoth's bargain is safe in legacy honestly assuming griselbrand is banned in the same announcement. Griselbrand is better than bargain in terms of what griselbrand can do (get griselbrand out, protect it and have it connect 3 times. Pretty easy.) Whereas bargain has to draw you into the win, griselbrand itself is the win condition. Creatures are easier to cheat into play than enchantments, and I'd rather ad nauseam with 1 floating versus resolving a bargain.

Then you've misconstructed your deck. A Ritual deck can either SnT Bargain or Dark Ritual/Cabal Ritual into it. It can do this while playing Force of Will and Pact of Negation. It's sorta like Omniscience, except that it will kill your opponent on turn 1 a small percentage of the time, and on turn 2 a lot more often. Oh, and tapping 6 isn't that unreasonable, particularly if your manabase just has to be UB.

Tbh, the scarier Bargain deck probably looks like a Hive Mind or Dream Halls-type deck that can use Grim Monolith and/or Dark Ritual plus City of Traitors/Crystal Vein to just cast one of two stupid enchantments. I'd probably start somewhere around the OmniHalls deck and start cutting Dream Halls at first with a Swamp, 4 Deltas, and 1-2 Seas). It's better than Dream Halls as a SnT thing. Finding 6 isn't that hard if you tune your manabase a little (and you can still play Grim Monolith or Dark Ritual in the semi-flexible slots. A Bargain build probably ends up playing more Lotus Petals, like where we were pre-Cunning Wish. As a side effect, you don't actually need 3-4 Cunning Wish in the deck since 50% of your Show and Tells draw cards regardless of ETB effects (although you still might want them for the ability to find Emrakul (via Eladarmi's Calls or Firemind's Foresight). There are a couple "obvious" ways to approach it, and that's without bringing up a build that uses Bargain/Dream Halls together and skips/skimps on Omniscience.

[nedleeds]

This. Storm is at 7... Flip 7, one of those is Minds desire. Cast Stuff. Cast Minds Desire storm is 12. Flip 12. Oops another minds desire. Win the game.

Edit: Similar to a weaker AN, except your deck is restricted less by mana costs and its much more difficult to counter.

Minds Desire is the engine and the win and the draw. You only need it and countering it does really nothing. Without a Flusterstorm you are going to diarrhea geyser in your opponents mouth.

[dontbiteitholmes]

By the way, can we either update the poll at the top of this thread, or just create a new poll for cards to ban or unban (that would serve as the new B&R Thread)?

Maybe this would be a good start for a new poll:

Brainstorm
Deathrite Shaman
Delver of Secrets
Griselbrand
Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lion's Eye Diamond
Sensei's Divining Top
Show and Tell
Tarmogoyf

This has been tried many times before and the community overall seems determined to leave the old poll up to show people just how ridiculous most discussion asking for cards to be banned is in hindsight.

Basically the current poll is like "Hey, if the people on this site ran the B&R list they'd just ruin the format."

[Lord Seth]

This. Storm is at 7... Flip 7, one of those is Minds desire. Cast Stuff. Cast Minds Desire storm is 12. Flip 12. Oops another minds desire. Win the game.

Edit: Similar to a weaker AN, except your deck is restricted less by mana costs and its much more difficult to counter.

But the thing is, Ad Nauseam doesn't require you to build up Storm. You start out by saying "Storm is at 7" but first you have to get to that level, which is what the Storm engine is supposed to help you out with. Mind's Desire costs 6 mana, is off color with a lot of the acceleration, and requires you to have a reasonable amount of Storm built up before you even cast it, the card that's supposed to get you the Storm.

Unbanning WGD in legacy should have happened right after griselbrand was printed. What would you rather reanimate?

Simple power isn't the reason Worldgorger Dragon is banned. If it was a simple matter of that, then it can come off, it'd do pretty much nothing. It's banned because you can use it to force a draw if you want. The card doesn't really enable any interesting strategies and can be used for abuse in ways similar to Shahrazad. While admittedly it's not as bad as Shahrazad (at least Worldgorger Dragon has some legitimate uses and isn't as easily abusable), at best the card would do nothing in the format and at worst it'd lead to the same problems Shahrazad had and get banned again.

Yawgmoth's bargain is safe in legacy honestly assuming griselbrand is banned in the same announcement. Griselbrand is better than bargain in terms of what griselbrand can do (get griselbrand out, protect it and have it connect 3 times. Pretty easy.) Whereas bargain has to draw you into the win, griselbrand itself is the win condition. Creatures are easier to cheat into play than enchantments, and I'd rather ad nauseam with 1 floating versus resolving a bargain.

People often bring up this comparison. I don't think it's really that relevant because the two cards generally go into different decks. For example, Storm, the most obvious candidate for Yawgmoth's Bargain, has no interest in Griselbrand. Really, a better legal comparison for Yawgmoth's Bargain is Ad Nauseam.

[FieryBalrog]

Playtesting for SCG Somerset- a friend wants to go- and just confirming that the format is ludicrously stagnant. XYZ Jace deck vs. ye-olde-Thresh vs. some blue combo deck. Add in 10% random pet decks and you have the entire format.

[KobeBryan]

Playtesting for SCG Somerset- a friend wants to go- and just confirming that the format is ludicrously stagnant. XYZ Jace deck vs. ye-olde-Thresh vs. some blue combo deck. Add in 10% random pet decks and you have the entire format.

How dare you leave out maverick!!!

[FieryBalrog]

No, I mentioned pet decks...

[lordofthepit]

Playtesting for SCG Somerset- a friend wants to go- and just confirming that the format is ludicrously stagnant. XYZ Jace deck vs. ye-olde-Thresh vs. some blue combo deck. Add in 10% random pet decks and you have the entire format.

Even with that ridiculous oversimplification of the format, you batted 2 for 5 on the top decks of June 2013:

1. RUG (40 tops)
2. BUG Control (35 tops)
3. Jund (23 tops)
4. Elves (20 tops)
5. Maverick (19 tops)

http://thecouncil.es/tcdecks/metagam...y&fecha=2013-6

[Gheizen64]

Tolarian academy is not safe with the new legend rule at all. And its essentially the same as unbanning mishra's workshop in legacy/shouldn't happen. It would make MUD tier 1 overnight if unbanned and academy would be 100 dollars plus also overnight similar to gaea's cradle.
.

Tolarian isn't even that good in MUD. The moment you fill the deck with 0 mana artifacts to abuse it, it's the moment you realize you have no bombs to accellerate into anymore. You can't Trinisphere on T1 with Tolarian any more reliably than you could do now with sol lands. You can play more cards with activation costs, like Masticore, Mindslaver, Helix or the likes i guess, but really, it is so bad if MUD becomes a deck? It's one of the most easily hated out decks in existence if you can't power up retarded things like Lodestone T1.

Something like this i guess:

3 Mox Diamond
3 Mox Opal
4 CotV
4 Trinisphere
4 Lodestone Golem
3 Kuldotha forgemaster
4 Grim Monolith
3 Voltaic Key
3 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Spine of Ish Sah
1 Staff of Nin?
1 Sundering Titan
1 Blighsteel Colossus
2 Phyrexian Metamorph
x stuffs

4 Tolarian Academy
4 Ancient Tomb
4 City of Traitors
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory

[mishima_kazuya]

But the thing is, Ad Nauseam doesn't require you to build up Storm. You start out by saying "Storm is at 7" but first you have to get to that level, which is what the Storm engine is supposed to help you out with. Mind's Desire costs 6 mana, is off color with a lot of the acceleration, and requires you to have a reasonable amount of Storm built up before you even cast it, the card that's supposed to get you the Storm.

If Mind's Desire was unbanned I would snap dismantle my AnT list and try to build something like UB Storm or URB storm.

Mind's Desire is powerful enough that it would replace Ad Nauseum, so that the new game plan is cast 4-5 spells before casting Mind's Desire.