sinkhole is bad and that makes me sad

[Gheizen64]

Did you know that we have a 2R land destruction spell that deal 3 damage too? And yet it's unplayed (Cryoclasm). However i think LD to be remotely playable nowadays it would need to have damage or alternative utility attached, else it just become a dead topdeck later on. Cards like Chocking Sands, Cryoclasm and Molten Rain aren't enough. Roiling Terrain was a good try, but costed 1 mana too much (it's a decent fetch hoser).

But yeah Pillage won't see play if you can play everything in your deck at the 2-3 cmc spots.

[Hardcore]

Nonsense! The overlooked factor is the context; the format is dominated by blue cantrips that make it easy to dig for stuff. Be it spells, or lands. (this is also why discard is quite weak)

Btw, mixing sinkholes and blue cantrips is a nice plan. A friend did just that, and he ran snapcaster, extirpate, surgicals, mishras and wasteland too. Less effective against Mono color decks, and recurring creatures, but otherwise OK. Probably very good anti -control.

[HammafistRoob]

My favorite LD card is definitely Shadow of Doubt. It's actually very strong against things like GSZ, Infernal, Entomb, SFM, and Intuition as well so it's usually not a dead card.

[Star|Scream]

Nonsense! The overlooked factor is the context; the format is dominated by blue cantrips that make it easy to dig for stuff. Be it spells, or lands. (this is also why discard is quite weak)

Btw, mixing sinkholes and blue cantrips is a nice plan. A friend did just that, and he ran snapcaster, extirpate, surgicals, mishras and wasteland too. Less effective against Mono color decks, and recurring creatures, but otherwise OK. Probably very good anti -control.

Right. Ban brainstorm!

[Hardcore]

My favorite LD card is definitely Shadow of Doubt. It's actually very strong against things like GSZ, Infernal, Entomb, SFM, and Intuition as well so it's usually not a dead card.

Interesting card! Thanks for sharing

[lordofthepit]

Sinkhole has won me plenty of games as a sideboard card in Team America and Jund.

[Richard Cheese]

I feel your pain. I saved up for Ice Storms and Sinkholes back in the day, and the deck was just my baby. Sometimes Eva Green and Team America still run Sinkholes, but LD as an archetype is basically dead because there are just too many 1-2 mana plays, fetchlands, cantrips, etc.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Yep, blame the powercreep. Even in the world of Dazes here and there, Sinkhole would be quite strong, but not when a usual 3/2 flying, 3/3 shroud, 4/5 vanilla, 15/15 "you lose" creature (or deadly spells' chain) costs three mana and below.
Not that I pity that exactly this one archetype is dead, otoh, I understand that there are ppl who like LD and who even heavily invested into it.
I sold my beta Holes three years ago and never shed a tear.

[Aggro_zombies]

This is so true it's beyond words.

Who is to say that because you can't have fun when I play my cards that I should suffer from WotC policy by removing my enjoyment? That in itself is fun-limiting. </griefer>

Who is to say that your fun trumps my fun? Why should I have to tolerate being able to do stone nothing from turn three onwards because I have no mana? There are still plenty of ways to grief in Magic.

Powerful LD is gone, and I say good riddance. Give us some occasional MLD to keep ramp shenanigans in check but let the Stone/Molten Rains stay where they are.

[HammafistRoob]

Who is to say that your fun trumps my fun? Why should I have to tolerate being able to do stone nothing from turn three onwards because I have no mana? There are still plenty of ways to grief in Magic.

Powerful LD is gone, and I say good riddance. Give us some occasional MLD to keep ramp shenanigans in check but let the Stone/Molten Rains stay where they are.

I have to agree here. I feel like wizards made the right move when they pretty much said cheap mana denial is a thing of the past. They want their game to grow, and people still have fun even if they lose, as long as they get to play their cards.

[Hardcore]

Mana denial is not that easy; you have to find the LD cards. If both you and your opponent draw lands he well get free from your grip.

As for fun, explain what makes Belcher, TES/ANT and similar decks fun for the opponent.

Btw, mana denial would be good for the format; it would slow it down by forcing land greedy decks to play more of them and control decks to play more counterspells. Blue was once a color for countering spells, but today is mostly a combo enabler.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I have to agree here. I feel like wizards made the right move when they pretty much said cheap mana denial is a thing of the past. They want their game to grow, and people still have fun even if they lose, as long as they get to play their cards.

LD for Standard was perfectly balanced post Caw-Blade IMO. Tectonic Edge + Goblin Ruinblaster was just right. I ran mono-red with 4x Tec Edge MD and 4x Ruinblaster SB. I had an edge post board against Caw-Blade/UB Control decks that would get greedy and need to hit 5-6 mana bombs like Giddeon or Titans to stabilize, buying me those 1 or 2 turns I needed to edge out a W at the cost of a weaker game against combo decks or aggro decks (I was like 2-6 against the mirror because they ran MD +2/+0 lands and SB Pro-Red dudes in my anti-control slots). I don't think LD ever gave me a free win there like Stone Rain or Wasteland sometimes can but it would often keep a stupid 5-7 cmc bombs deck under the gun for an extra turn or two which is something I feel like Standard needs more than a bunch of undercosted beaters that only keep control decks honest in a lucky little kid sort of way.

[Hardcore]

undercosted
beaters that only keep control decks
honest in a lucky little kid sort of way

Thalia and all the new hate bears. They exist because wizard are to weak to use the ban hammer, and too stupid to not make new broken cards.
That is bad of course; it is not very fun to feel you must go looking for hate for your deck to be viable.

" -what is your game plan? -To hope I can hate my opponents beyond top 8. "

Fun?

[Barook]

Powerful LD is gone, and I say good riddance. Give us some occasional MLD to keep ramp shenanigans in check but let the Stone/Molten Rains stay where they are.

I could live with that if Wizards stopped rehashing old, iconic cards with double or tripple the mana cost and printing stupid shit like Emrakul, Omniscience and Enter the Infinite.

[Lemnear]

I could live with that if Wizards stopped rehashing old, iconic cards with double or tripple the mana cost and printing stupid shit like Emrakul, Omniscience and Enter the Infinite.

But, but if WotC prints new LD they have to overthink their habit of printing Sets Full of 6cc+ i-win-buttons for their casual crowd which would be sad if they can't resolve their "exciting" all-in-one-creatures! *whine*

[Bed Decks Palyer]

As for fun, explain what makes Belcher, TES/ANT and similar decks fun for the opponent.

The fact that they're hard to pilot, you may still interact, at least because you got your lands, and even if you for some reason can't, the games are over pretty fast. Also, Belcher has bad matchup against pile of beermats,
Sitting in a chair, doing nothing for forty minutes while watching some half-ape in a jugallo T-shirt drawing one Stone Rain after another is much more frustrating. Also, playing Pox/Stax is like asking for a kick in the nuts. Not everyone is that patient like I am.

[TsumiBand]

Jesus, everyone here makes it sound like dedicated LD decks are the most cruel and oppressive decks you can possibly sit across from. Hasn't anybody seen what happens when those rad LD decks don't draw their nuts? They tank so fucking hard that it's all they pilot can do to keep themselves from throwing all 75 into a toilet.

Efficient creatures are in anyway; a turn 1 DRS is the one of the last things a dedicated LD deck would probably like to see. I mean shit you can't even Rancid Earth it away with Threshold; fuck this game, am I right?? Stupid uber BoP, destroying the world I love.

I remember the first LD deck I played against; it was and played shit like Mesmeric Fiend, Petravark, Faceless Butcher, a bevy of 3 mana LD spells and like, Magnivores and Sengir Vampires and shit. Crushed the hell out of my 80-card Madness deck. 2002 was rough for me. I do miss the archetype, but I can't help but think that LD would need to be printed at such a level now to matter a damn that it would be genuinely unfair. Like, I don't think it fixes anything in Legacy in any fair configuration. What would you bring it in against, anyway. Blue need only get to 2U to drop Emrakul, so fuck it. Maverick would just like sac its own land in response and look for more land, so who cares? If Wasteland isn't good enough to prevent those decks from going active, I don't know that a spell that costs nonzero mana is going to do the job.

[FTW]

Sinkhole was never really a top tier card anyways. The problem is Sinkhole either is going to blow the game wide open or they are just going to replace the land and move on. Then late game while you are topdecking irrelevant Sinkholes they are topdecking spells that are going to ruin your day. If you want to play Sinkhole play Pox or even better go to GenCon and play 4x Sinkhole, 4x Hymn, 4x Strip Mine in the Peasant World Champs.

This. Hell, play this:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Dead Weight
4 Sinkhole
3 Vendetta

4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Carnophage
4 Pulse Tracker
4 Skittering Skirge
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
1 Flesh Reaver

4 Black Vise

4 Strip Mine
14 Swamp
2 Barren Moor


Turn 1 on the draw... Dark Ritual, Black Vise, Sinkhole. T2 1-mana bear Strip Mine. G2SB?
Or on the play T1 ritual, Vice + creature. T2 Sinkhole. GG.

[thefringthing]

I feel like it's a bigger deal that aggro decks have been completely pushed out of the format than that there are no good dedicated board control decks.

[dontbiteitholmes]

This. Hell, play this:


4 Dark Ritual
4 Dead Weight
4 Sinkhole
3 Vendetta

4 Vampire Lacerator
4 Carnophage
4 Pulse Tracker
4 Black Knight
4 Order of the Ebon Hand
1 Flesh Reaver

4 Black Vise

4 Strip Mine
14 Swamp
2 Barren Moor


Turn 1 on the draw... Dark Ritual, Black Vise, Sinkhole. T2 1-mana bear Strip Mine. G2SB?
Or on the play T1 ritual, Vice + creature. T2 Sinkhole. GG.

Nope, playing this

16 Island
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Preordain
4 Ponder
4 Snap
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will (uncommon)
4 Cloud of Faeries
4 Spellstutter Sprite
3 Gush
4 Ninja of the Deep Hours
1 Old Man of the Sea (uncommon)
4 Phantasmal Bear