I have to say that I'm pretty comfortable with this deck being so popular because I find it quite shitty and enjoy every win I get from being paired against it. First of all, this deck lacks a sufficient amount of counter magic. It's really nice knowing that almost all of your spells will resolve because FoW is their only counter. Secondly, I feel that people overestimate Shardless Agent. With he exception of cascading into Ancestral Vision, he's basically a imaginary Trinisphere to all of your spells which would usually cost less (BS, TS, Hymn etc.). His 2/2-body is barely relevant which you should have noticed by now. These rare Ancestral Recalls you'll get from him aren't a justification to run him in my opinion.
These Ancestral Recalls are not 'rare' and the deck shows enough good performance!Originally Posted by Erdvermampfa
I'm speechless. Thx for the advice buddy, seems like we all have to change our Deck now. Also the comparison with the Trinisphere. I have Never seen it like that........
May I ask you One Last question before this thread get closed. Have you ever played One single Game with this Deck?
While there is something to be said for the variance that agent creates it's not much different than goblin ringleader or bbe, both of which are powerful engines in other decks. I don't play the deck for this reason (a semi-random chance for profit on a mana-ineffecient body) but I cannot deny it's good performance.
That said, let's avoid feeding the troll.
"Don't mess with me, lady. I've been drinking with skeletons."
I write articles about Legacy Death and Taxes. Check them out.
I don't think you understand. Having something to protect Liliana is not the same as being ahead on board. You can have a Goyf and not be ahead on board. Playing Liliana can turn the tide in your favour greatly. So no, she's not a winmore card as you describe it, but she's also not something you play and it'll automatically win you the game.
Having Liliana gives you outs to decks you normally wouldn't have and she's VERY good against most decks actually. The Edict she provides is an angle you normally don't have. Also, if Liliana is not good against the decks that are heavily played atm, what decks do you consider heavily played?
Ok everyone, I'm really enjoying this list, but I can't quite decide on the best sideboard choice for SCG Baltimore this weekend. My big decision is between Umezawa's Jitte and Whipflare. Let's start with the main deck list, and then discuss!
Lands (22)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Badlands
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
Creatures (15)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
3 Baleful Strix
Spells (23)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
2 Whipflare
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Force of Will
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
1 Baleful Strix
3 Flusterstorm
The changes from my last list are:
- One Liliana of the Veil to the main, and one less Jace, the Mind Sculptor over all. I feel like 4 plansewalkers total is the number, any more and you draw them too early.
- Moved 1 more Force of Will to the sideboard. They are just bad in fair match-ups, and there's so much in the board for combo, I feel game 1 is more of a discard reliant "kill-them-fast" kind of game anyway.
- Added 3 Flusterstorm to the board. As was pointed out, we can't rely on discard with things like Leyline of Sanctity hanging around.
Ok, so it's either this list, or one with two Umezawa's Jitte in the board. In the other list I also remove the Badlands and replace it with the fourth Baleful Strix. This reduces the land count to 21, and frees up a slot in the board. I put in a Vendilion Clique to help sure up the combo match.
I'm leaning towards the Umezawa's Jittes because they:
- Are a constant threat that hangs around
- Force the opponent to answer them.
- Shore up tough match-ups like mono-red burn, or anything else attacking your life total aggressively.
Finally, I like reducing the land count to 21. At 22 I was consistently Ancestral Visioning into two or three lands when I needed answers. I've never been at a loss for lands at 21, so I really don't see the need for 22.
Anyone have any comments on the land count, the sideboard, or anything else?
21 lands sounds very very suicidal to me! Though it is a Midrange(and probably no Controldeck) it plays a rather high curve, and no cascade-deck could ever win when being low on lands, while playing a fair game. You might get away with playing 21 lands against various combodecks (with get away I am talking about NOT getting screwd) but you cannot be seroius if you are telling me that you plan on winning against any ressource-attacking-strategies aka RUG / BUG / BURG / UWR? 21 Lands +4 Shaman might be manageable at some point, but it surely is not, when you are playing 2 of each, Wasteland AND Tar Pit. If you decide to play as few lands as 21 I'd cut 2 Tar Pit or 2 Wasteland for some stable manasources. Or just add a 22nd land in the end.
2 FoW MB / 2 FoW SB... hmm this sounds alright as long as FoW is only used to answer otherwise unanswerable cards. Two Force of Will won't really help for the combo-MU. I'd either play 3-4 MB and really have them in your opening when the opponent is going to kill you as soon as T1/2/3 or you play them all sideboard, accepting a bad MU g1 and letting your sideboard take the bloody revenge. A 2/2 split does nothing, if you ask me - or is at least inferior to both, 4/0 - 0/4.
Greetings
You know, I didn't even realize it, but of all the match-ups I tested, none directly attacked my manabase. That's probably why I felt I was OK dropping a land. I've added it back in (a single swamp this time for the Jitte build). I also updated the list to put all 4 FOW back into the main deck. Does this look better? Do you have any opinion on Whipflare vs. Umezawa's Jitte?
Lands (22)
3 Underground Sea
2 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
1 Swamp
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
Creatures (14)
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Shardless Agent
2 Baleful Strix
Spells (24)
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
4 Force of Will
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Liliana of the Veil
Sideboard (15)
2 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Golgari Charm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Thoughtseize
2 Baleful Strix
3 Flusterstorm
Ive been running a 3/1 split of whipflare and jitte in the board for a while. From experience, whipflare is a much better answer versus all of he quicker swarm decks that quickly gain an insurmountable board advantage (goblins, maverick, elves) because it comes down turn 2-3 and just wrecks them in the developmental stages. The decks that have the small swarms tend to either be hate bears, where they want to get to a crucible of hate that you can't overcome; or ramp into something huge, sigarda or craterhoof. In either case, jitte is simply too slow to stop them before they develop their board and you have to hope that you dropped a goyf turn 2/3, mana to equip and they don't have a combat trick to simply negate jitte. Instead, jitte is better when he ground is stalled and you need to break the symmetry.
Hey Pherion, it's tough to compare Whipflare and Umezawa's Jitte because they provide very different functions.
Particularly, Whipflare is an awesome sweeper that is awesome to cascade into (most of the time). It is a very tempo-oriented card that's designed for quick and dirty mass removal. It can be absolutely devastating. Once it's cast, it's done and there is no staying power. Although that may not matter because it will clear the opponent's board allowing you an alpha strike.
Jitte, on the other hand is a great all-around tool with some great sustainability, providing lifegain, spot removal, and decent game closing capabilities. On the negative side, Jitte is a big waste when cascaded into when you're hoping for spot removal or discard, and there is no way to tutor for it. Not to mention it requires equipping it, and since this deck often taps out every turn, it devalues cascading into it even more. Jitte is very slow, unless you cast and equip in on turn 4, and is better for loooong games (or sometimes short games if you have such a good board state that your opponent concedes when Jitte hits the table).
Old Shardless BUG lists ran 2 in the SB and I found in my extensive early testing that they provided very little help, since the deck does very well on its own and already has a good consistency. Don't get me wrong, I think Jitte's awesomesauce, I just don't like it in this deck in my playstyle. I want instant gratification in the form of cascadable business spells, and I think Whipflare is the clear winner there.
Getting back to comparing the two: they provide completely different functions so it probably comes down to your playstyle. Do you like a early-mid length games with a tempo-based strategy? Go with Whipflare. Do you prefer a longer grindy match and have a utility spot to fill? Go with Jitte. I personally play more of a quick n' dirty gameplay style, so I like cards like Whipflare, Disfigure, and Massacre.
Then again, I did finally come around to fully appreciating Jace in the deck after lambasting him previously, so like anything I just had to use "card X" more to find out how good it is.
Whack lists currently playing:
Rector Nic Fit
Bizarro Stormy
Rest In Pieces
somethingdotdotdot & Kyle, Thanks!
I'll have to do some more playtesting this week, but I see your point about Jitte being slow. In the games I've played, decay + discard + Lilly has usually been enough to keep the board under control till a Jitte could get online.
If I switch to Whipflare, is 2 enough? I don't really see a card I can pull from my board to fit in a 3rd one.
Thanks,
Frank
I 100% agree with this. I used to run 2 main 2 side but the matchup you want them is mostly against Combo, and 2 wasn't doing anything for me. They usually just cluttered my hand when I didn't need them and didn't show up when I did. I went for 3 main deck, as I feel they more reliably show up in your openers or drawing 1 lategame to hardcast isn't bad either.
Also, about Whipflare, it's not really a very good answer to Maverick, it doesn't really kill Mother of Runes or Knight of the Reliquary, or any other valuable creature they have when they have a Mom (giving it pro red prevents the damage).
This is exactly why I included Golgari Charm in my sideboard as a 2 of. The -1/-1 mode is devastating for Maverick and Death & Taxes. It kills Mother of Runes, Thalia, Guardian of Thraben, Mangara of Corondor, Phyrexian Revoker, and Noble Hierarch (I'm sure there's more!). I feel like it's almost on par with Whipflare for whipping boards.
I agree, I also don't like the fourth colour, but that's a personal preference.
The card that scares me, and makes me think Whipflare might be worth taking is Mirran Crusader. We have no outs to this guy except Liliana of the Veil (and that only works if he's their only creature) or Jace, the Mind Sculptor (temporary solution)! Of course we can make them discard him before they get to 3 mana, but if a deck plays him they probably play 4 - he's just that good against us.
Unfortunately, this is one creature that Golgari Charm doesn't kill. It really depends on how many aggressive decks we think are going to show up with access to double white on turn 3...
hi,
i'm a newbie with this deck. In my meta there are a lot of S&T based decks, which are the best SB cards can i add? G2 and G3 there is Leyline of Sanctity as an addiction problem. Thanks!
Currently i would run:
2 FoW
2 Hymn to Tourach
3 Leyline of the Void / Nihil SpellBomb
2 Liliana of the Veil
2 ThoughtSeize
2 Golgari Charm
2 free slots
any changes?
I am currently running nearly the same board, though i do have more Burn/fast Aggro, hence the Jittes.
2 Jitte
2 FoW
2 Flusterstorm
2 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Golgari Charm
2 Disfigure
1 Hymn to Tourach
2 Liliana of the Veil
Dedicated SnT Hate will be very narrow i guess, so you can eiter use Trinissphere/Ensnaring Bridge or Venser, which i do like quite a lot. This doesn't help against Omnitell in case they are holding Cunning Wish for Trickbind though.
Hilarious option -> Take Possession
Have you considered Flusterstorm? If they are on the Omniscience/Enter the Infinite plan, a single Flusterstorm can ruin their day!
Obviously bring in your forces, and your discard. Golgari Charm is nice as well. Responding to an Enter the Infinite by blowing up their Omniscience is a pretty beastly play.
For straight up SnT trying to put an Emrakul, the Aeons Torn or Griselbrand into play, you want your Lillianas as well. Their edict effect is your only way to get rid of these creatures should a SnT resolve. Also, Golgari Charm hits Sneak Attack.
Greetings All!
I have been following this deck for some time and finally managed to get my hands on all of the necessary cards. Earlier this week, I ran my list (posted below) at my local game store. I managed to go 2-0-1 splitting 1st and 2nd in the last round.
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Baleful Strix
4 Shardless Agent
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Brainstorm
2 Thoughtseize
2 Hymn to Tourach
4 Abrupt Decay
1 Liliana of the Veil
1 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Force of Will
3 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical Island
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Wasteland
Sideboard
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Nihil Spellbomb
2 Flusterstorm
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Disfigure
2 Baleful Strix
2 Golgari Charm
1 Force of Will
Round 1: Tom playing Jund Aggro Loam: 2-0
Game 1: I won the die roll and chose to go first. My opener felt solid against Aggro Loam... it had 3 lands, Deathrite, Visions, Agent, and FoW. I led of with fetch into Underground Sea into Deathrite. My opponent fetched out a Badlands and cast Raven's Crime. I discarded the FoW. I wanted access to the Agent and the Vision. On turn two I drew a second Agent, played a land, and suspended the Vision. I also attacked for 1 with Deathrite. My opponent's next turn was land into Double retrace Raven's Crime. I discarded the third land and an Agent, leaving my hand at only Agent. My turn three was tap Deathrite to remove one of his lands, tap my two lands and cast Agent. The cascade hit a Goyf. I had drawn another Agent. For some reason on my opponent's next turn he did not retrace the discard spell... choosing instead to tutor for Life from the Loam. I untapped drew a land, attacked for 8 (5 power Goyf, 2 off of Agent, and 1 with Deathrite) and then second main phased my land and Agent #2. This cascade hit a second Deathrite. My opponent was able to cast LftL and Abrupt Decay a Goyf... he still took 4 in the next combat and DRS activations sealed the deal.
Sideboarding: -2 Thoughtseize, -1 Maelstrom Pulse, -1 Liliana of the Veil; +3 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Force of Will; my thinking here was that discard is actively bad... although Hymn retains some value as my opponent was trying to empty my hand before getting any business rolling. This would mean Hymn could still hit win cons. Lili felt weak so I brought in grave hate to deal with LftL and Raven's Crime nonsense. I also brought in the 4th Force in effort to stop Burning Wishes for board wipes. It is possible the Flusterstorm may be a better choice.
game 2: I was on he draw with a pretty awesome opener. I had double Deathrite, Spellbomb, 3 lands, and a Decay. My opponent opened with Raven's Crime. I pitched a land. I drew a Vision for turn, cracked a fetch, found USea, and cast a Deathrite. My opponent played a land, bolted Deathrite, and retraced Raven's Crime. I discarded the Decay as it seemed the least relevant. I drew an Agent. I play my second land, cast Deathrite and Spellbomb. Leaving my hand as Agent and Vision. His next turn involved a Burning wish for a Perish. Knowing this I just suspended my Vision and removed his Raven's Crime with Deathrite, protecting my lone remaining card in hand, Agent. He sandbags the Perish as he wants to get more value than just a Deathrite, which I am totally fine with... as it allowed me to untap only facing down another land. I drew another land. Played land just passed back. After a turn or two of draw, land go, with Deathrite dealing some damage here and there. I refill my hand with Vision and have enough gas to just bury him.
Round 2: Paul playing Lands (2-1)
Game 1: I make an overly aggressive play Wastelanding his Tabernacle and then immeadiately remove it with Deathrite. He in response Intuitions finding LftL, Stage, and Dark Depths... I would have been able to come back from this had I put a Jace on top rather than second from the top of my Library. he had just enough time to make his GerryT token and kill me.
Sideboarding: -2 Thoughtseize, -2 Hymn, -1 Maelstrom Pulse; +3 Nihil Spellbomb, +1 Flusterstorm, +1 FoW; My thought process here was to have grave hate to break up the LftL engine while also having a few more pieces of reactive magic to take out Intuition. I don't think any of the other spells really matter.
Game 2: I open with fetch, USea, Deathrite. He opens on a Tranquil Thicket. I am able to cast a turn 2 Agent, which hit an Abrupt Decay, which I choose not to cast. He plays his second land and casts LftL with no targets.... just getting it into the graveyard. I am able to snap of the LftL with Deathrite, after playing a Spellbomb. His next turn was Exploration into two lands. My next turn was land, Jace, Fateseal, attack for 3. Probably 10 or so turns later my opponent is facing down a Goyf, 2 Deathrites, Agent, and a Jace threatening to ultimate. He scoops.
Game 3: This one played out a little differently. I was able to take advantage of a land-light draw out of the lands deck using an Abrupt Decay on a Mox Diamond after wasting him on turn 2. This was after another turn 1 Deathrite. I got in a Goyf beat or two but he was able to tutor out a Maze of Ith and then a Glacial Chasm. After this I just began doming him with Deathrite and this was enough to get there.
Round 3: PJ with BUG Tempo (1-1-1)
We intentionally drew but played a few games as I wanted the practice. The match up seemed pretty even if we could get out of the early game. Getting to Deathrite +2 lands or 3 lands seemed to be the trick. I would say it might be wroth considering some specific sideboard cards if you think you are going to see this deck around your LGS.
Overall the deck felt great. I think there is some tweaking to be done to my sideboard for my local meta but otherwise I was very happy. I think with the prevalence of graveyard based decks (1 Aggro Loam, 1 Lands, 1 Reanimator, and 1 Jund [okay not really gy based but does have Punishing Fire]), a Surgical or two might be worth trying out. The main seemed very strong. I was able to walk away with $30 in store credit for my trouble which was combined with some previous credit to get a 2nd Liliana of the Veil. I think to fully optimize the list I will need to transition the two Marsh Flats to Verdant Catacombs 3-4. This was not an issue, but there is no reason to have a suboptimal fetching plan. Anyway thanks for reading and let me know what you guys think of the deck, sideboard, sideboarding... etc. I really would like to hear opinions of sideboard tech and specific substitutions... that is where I felt the least confident. Thanks again!
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In my experience, the two SB cards I think that are vital for SnT matchups are Venser, Shaper Savant and Notion Thief. Many times you have to be able to get a really bomb card out off their own SnT and those two can be blowouts. As much as I love Golgari Charm, it is often too late if they SnTed their Omniscience and they will have counters to prevent you from destroying it. At least they can't counter the Venser or Notion Thief off their own SnT.
Whack lists currently playing:
Rector Nic Fit
Bizarro Stormy
Rest In Pieces
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