[Primer] Elves!

[nudon]

Okay, but what's your rationale? Counterspells hit a lot harder when you have fewer threats in your deck.

In my limited testing against RUG, I felt generating 4 mana for NO wasn't that easy with all of their disruption. They also bring in submerges and rough//tumble post-board. Moreover, tapping out and getting a NO countered is about the worst thing possible and is a virtual time walk for the opponent. While I'm not sure boarding 3-4 NO out is correct, I definitely think progenitus is too slow in the matchup since he needs to swing twice. My general game-plan is to bait out their counters/removal and try to get to the end-game via symbiote/visionary recursion. Once that happens, I feel it's hard for us to lose.

Hmmm, I once added the 4th NO to overload on threats against counters ... it's strange that you now want to board it out against counters :/

I think having the 4th NO is better against discard decks because we don't waste mana when they take away our cards. Like I said above, it's a blowout if we get our NO countered. Against control decks like miracles and traditional stoneblade, I think the 4th NO is better because they don't have the clock to pressure us.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Wirewood Symbiote is a card you know. Oh you have a 4/5 goyf? Block and bounce. Oh you killed the symbiote instead of an elf? NBD, means I can combo off next turn because you didn't kill heritage druid.



I never said DRS was too slow.
Dredge wins game one. Game 2 you start and you get Ooza out turn two and have maybe one or two mana open to eat something of his. you get a turn 3 and possibly go off or not play anything to keep a fair amount of mana open to eat stuff while he still has potential to just overrun it. Game 3 you still get Ooze turn 2 but he gets turn 3 first and wins. I'd rather only need to keep one mana open (ala crop rotation) or play a creature turn one (dryad militant/DRS) and not worry about anything and just go for the win.



what
They're narrow but powerful. I also have 2 crop rotation which gives me 3 effective copies of bojuka bog.

Dredge doesn't necessarily win Game 1. I've crushed Dredge 2-0 before by using the many untap effects in the deck to keep using Deathrite Shaman to exile Ichorids and stuff. You can also exile their Bridge from Belows by Crop Rotating Dryad Arbor. Cute but it works. Scavenging Ooze is definitely great. I board him in against RUG and he is great because he can get out of burn range (yeah Submerge sucks but what in our deck isn't bad against that card?), gain me life, and eat cards from their graveyard to shrink Mongoose and Tarmogoyf. Ooze is generally good against most DRS decks or Threshold-needing decks. I do agree with what you said about RUG Delver not being a bad matchup though. Only their Forces are very relevant usually. They cannot possibly have a blazing fast clock, removal for all our guys, AND counters for all our trumps at once unless we draw quite poorly.

[PendelSteven]

Merfolk: -2 heritage, -1 NO, +2 decay, +1 ooze

My question: do you side in the decay's vs. Aether Vial and lords in general?

Since the way I view Merfolk is like someone else feel like againt Delver: the only problem are the flyers in the deck. In this deck, Coralhelm Commander has cost me the game far too often, so I recommend bringing more destruction you can use Vial specifically so you can Decay their stupid flying Merfolk. Often 5/5 flying Merfolk :-/.



Let me add this thought. Many of you see this Elves-deck as a reasonably fast combo deck. The way I view this deck is that we're often defending (Symbiote/Elf / Ranger/Dryad) until we can find an "Overrun", in our case, often with Symbiote/Visionary and/or Glimpse+Heritage+Nettle Sentilnel to find NO, Hoof or GSZ. Actually, that is why the core of the deck is Symbiote, Visionary, Green Sun Zenith, Glimpse of Nature, Nettle Sentinel and to a lesser extend Querion Ranger, Dryad Arbour and Craterhoof Behemoth.

This defending until we find the overrun, makes it that we often get in a boardstall vs slower decks that can be broken by flyers and other unblockable creatures. Imho this is where Abrupt Decay (and Beast Within before it) shines.

Please note that DRS completely supports the deck if viewed like this. The incidental life gain and life loss on the other side is great in a boardstall...

[Lemnear]

So you don't think that we run the full set of NO, Glimpse and GSZ (X=8) and 2 Hoofs in order to be the aggressor and end the game fast? I do ... successful

DRS/Symbiote/Visionary are secondary options, if you can't find the primer options or see them discarded/countered. They are a bridge ... nothing more

Don't try to be the control-deck with Elves.

[Dice_Box]

So you don't think that we run the full set of NO, Glimpse and GSZ (X=8) and 2 Hoofs in order to end the game fast? I do. DRS/Symbiote/Visionary are secondary options, if you can't find the primer options or see them discarded/countered.

Don't try to be the control-deck with Elves.

I agree to all points here. Elves is strongest when it has more threats than can be answered. It's an aggro deck that combos off, you need to put up a fight.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

[Absolutflipz]

I agree to all points here. Elves is strongest when it has more threats than can be answered. It's an aggro deck that combos off, you need to put up a fight.

Sent from my mobile, forgive spelling and grammatical errors.

I'm on the same page, with some side notes.

Against RUG I like to go down to 2 Natural Orders (from 3) because:

A) Daze/Spell Pierce and lots of removal don't make for the best times for the 4-mana sac a dude sorcery
B) I bring in 2 Chokes as equally, if not more back-breaking spells to try to resolve

(Keep in mind, I'm only taking one Natural Order out, so it's not like I don't think it's workable against RUG)

I also like to take out both Hooves and bring in the 1 Progenitus.

I find Progenitus is plenty fast enough, as the game is usually grindy enough that your life gain from Deathrite/Ooze and Decay on Delver should buy you enough time.

Further, Hoof is much more underwhelming since they have Stifle and it's much harder to resolve a NO into Hoof with multiple other, un-sumoning sick elves available.

[nudon]

My question: do you side in the decay's vs. Aether Vial and lords in general?

I haven't really had problems with merfolk. In fact, most merfolk players tell me they don't like seeing elves on the other side so I don't think the third decay is necessary.

So you don't think that we run the full set of NO, Glimpse and GSZ (X=8) and 2 Hoofs in order to be the aggressor and end the game fast? I do ... successful DRS/Symbiote/Visionary are secondary options, if you can't find the primer options or see them discarded/countered. They are a bridge ... nothing more

Don't try to be the control-deck with Elves.

I thought about it some more and think you and igri are right. Bringing in the 3 decays slows down delver, which is the only scary creature in their deck in my opinion. I think I will try: -2 heritage druid, -2 nettle, -1 hoof, +3 decay, +1 ooze, +1 prog. I usually don't board out nettles but don't think they're that great against RUG, especially when taking out heritage druids too. Also, stifle in conjunction with wasteland makes quirion ranger (which I usually board out) more important.

[th3 w1z4rd]

Second place finish last night with the same list I played at the last tournament, minus the Emrakul, Priest of Titania, and two Faerie Macabre, plus 4 Cabal Therapy in the sb.

Round 1 vs. Aaron with Maverick

Game 1 he plays typical Maverick guys and taps out for a Knight of the Reliquary and a Deathrite Shaman or something and I NO out Hoof and kill him with ease.

I forgot what I boarded out but I boarding in the 4th NO and Progenitus

Game 2 I draw Progenitus on the first turn and Aaron gets a turn 2 Ethersworn Canonist, then flashes in Aven Mindcensor in response to my attempted Green Sun's Zenith for Viridian Shaman. I anticipated this play but unfortunately I had no other choice so my Zenith gets me a random dork instead. I slowly play dudes, he slowly plays dudes. I eventually play Craterhoof Behemoth and swing but he has Maze of Ith for the Behemoth itself and blocks with a Noble Hierarch to be at 2 life instead of 1 (lol). Aaron pings me with Mindcensor for a while and I start using Wirewood Symbiote to replay Elvish Visionary every turn. Eventually I start discarding dorks to hand size and exiling them with my Deathrite Shaman to gain some life. Aaron lands a Knight and starts accumulating lands in his grave, but I start exiling them with DRS. Eventually round time is called so we have 5 turns left. Thanks to my DRS shrinking Aaron's Knight and eating my dead creatures, he is not able to finish me off with Mindcensor, a Scryb Ranger, and Knight pro-green'd by Mother of Runes. Aaron lands his own DRS but on my last turn (while his DRS is still summoning sick) I exile a Glimpse I had played just to get it in the grave and finish him off.

1-0 2-0

Round 2 vs. Josh with 4 Color Cascade

Game 1 was rather uneventful. Josh played a few of his guys and brainstormed a couple times. Before that I thought he was on Jund because he played a DRS and Punishing Fire'd one of my elves. I had an early NO into Hoof and killed him.

Out 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Priest of Titania, In 2 Scavenging Ooze

Game 2, Scavenging Ooze kicked Josh's ass. He played a DRS, Shardless Agent (I cannot for the life of me remember what he cascaded into), and two Tarmogoyfs, and burned a couple of my dorks. I played some elves, Green Sun's Zenith'd into Ooze, ate two of my dead elves and swung for 4 before he had the goyfs. I used my own DRS and Ooze to prevent him from doing anything with his graveyard until Ooze got Maelstrom Pulse'd. I Zenith'd for a Visionary and got a bit of card advantage. Josh dropped a Sylvan Library. Then he had two card in his hand so I baited with Crop Rotation and he obliged pitching Shardless Agent to Force of Will. Next turn I resolved NO and won. During this round I look over to my left and see somebody get turn 1'd twice by Tin Fins, and I'm like please God don't let me face that guy.

2-0 4-0

Round 3 vs. Taylor with 4 color Zombardment (?) or something, I dunno, kinda like Junk with a red splash for Goblin Bombardment

I have a terrible record against Taylor and I'm hoping for redemption. Game 1 he has double Tidehollow Sculler and I just happened to draw both Craterhoof Behemoth and Regal Force, so he takes both of those and later sacrifices the scullers to flashback two Cabal Therapies to send both my fatties to the grave. :(
I play some guys both Taylor gets a million spirit tokens from Lingering Souls, ravages my hand with discard, and decimates me.

Out I forget, In 1 Natural Order, 1 Progenitus

Game 2 I have a sweet hand with Natural Order and a combotastic mix of elves. Of course I proceed to draw Progenitus AGAIN. Wtf? It doesn't matter. Taylor can't really do anything as I Glimpse combo and charge for way past lethal.

Game 3 Unfortunately ends in a draw as we run out of time after Taylor has done serious damage to my hand with discard and Perished away my field, but has resolved no threats yet by the time five turns are over.

2-0-1 5-1-1

Round 4 vs. Elliot with Tin Fins (Yep. THAT guy. lol)

I look at the match pairings and get a sinking feeling as I now have to face one of the worst matchups ever. To make matters worse, my opponent is a person who crushed me a while ago with RUG Delver when I was playing Maverick, by nut drawing three Submerges in a row and using them all on my poor Mother of Runes to triple time walk me out of the game. I hope this time he doesn't have such great luck.

Game 1 Elliot doesn't do anything except play lands for a couple turns while I play some dorks and swing in. Sadly, on turn 3 he plays Show and Tell, gets Griselbrand, draws a million cards, Dark Rituals into an Entomb and Reanimate Children of Korlis, sacs that and draws the rest of his deck basically. I scoop.

Out 1 Viridian Shaman, 1 Priest of Titania, 4 Elvish Visionary, 1 Joraga Warcaller, 1 Regal Force, In 2 Surgical Extraction, 2 Scavenging Ooze, 4 Cabal Therapy

Game 2 I have a Surgical Extraction in my opener and some guys and land so I keep. I play some dudes. Elliot Gitaxian Probes me and sees my Extraction. He cantrips once or twice. I beat him down with dorks until he's too low to use Griselbrand. He Entombs one and plays Animate Dead, I surgical in response, and he Shallow Grave's in response. Griselbrand comes in and hits me, Elliot draws until he can't anymore but he cannot finish me and I have lethal on board so he scoops. Holy shit I beat Tin Fins with Elves!

Game 3 Elliot is too afraid of Deathrite Shaman. He turn 1 Cabal Therapies me naming DRS. I don't have it but I do have my own Therapy and GSZ with some dorks. I turn 1 Therapy him back naming Entomb like a fool and he shows a land, Lotus Petal, Brainstorm, Dark Ritual, and Hapless Researcher. I kick myself for not naming Brainstorm or Dark Ritual, both of which I was considering naming. Elliot plays the Petal, Researcher, and Brainstorm, and sacs Researcher to flashback Cabal Therapy nabbing my Zenith. I topdeck DRS obviously and play it. LOL. On his turn Elliot casts his Dark Ritual, Entombs and Reanimates Griselbrand (he is now at 10 life). He draws 7 with Griselbrand, plays a Petal and another Dark Ritual, and Show and Tells Iona into play naming green. Fuck. I instantly wonder, do I lose? But I look at my board, double check Elliot's life total (3), and smile. "My turn? Tap Bayou for black, tap Deathrite Shaman to exile your Show and Tell, you lose two life. Activate Quirion Ranger, return Bayou to untap DRS. Play Bayou as land for turn, tap for black, tap DRS to exile your Dark Ritual, you lose two life." And just like that, Elliot is dead. Victory!

3-0-1 7-2-1

They were going to do 5 rounds which would have probably meant me winning the tournament since the guy in first was playing Grixis Tempo, but they decided not to have the last round. Booooo. I still get second place and get a foil Jace Beleren, the cool looking one. Yay. They had other options for prizes but I didn't care about any of them.

Props:
Deathrite Shaman was a house. I personally won two games I would otherwise not have won. Three of my four opponents were also playing him, lol.
Turning a 1-0 win into a 2-0 win thanks to last second DRS activation
Seeing only one Force of Will the whole tournament
Not facing either of the two Miracles players (one of whom was the guy that Tin Fins beat turn 1 twice)
Beating Tin Fins with Elves!

Slops:
Drawing Progenitus EVERY time I sided him in. wtf.
Perish. Hate that card.
Elliot taking forever to play every turn
Removing the Faerie Macabres from my sb because "no one's gonna be playing Reanimator" *facepalm*

Thanks for reading!

[Chrandersen]

I played elves last weekend in Cincinnati and felt like I had the best deck in the room.

4 deathrite shaman
4 fyndhorn/llanowar elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Priest of Titania

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
9 Green Fetchlands
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
2 Meekstone
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dryad Arbor

Only losses were to belcher and omniscience when I got flooded. Looks like I'm back to casting Elvish Visionarys for the foreseeable future : )

[Koby]

Chranderson, what happened to the Mirror Entity build? Why did you abandon it this last showing?

[Chrandersen]

As much as I like entity, I recognize that Natural Order is a more robust and powerful deck while sacrificing almost no consistency. I think entity is still good as a value card, but the combo with her is almost completely unnecessary now. Therefore I am playing an Ezuri instead, so I can zenith for my "entity".

[Zombie]

WOW. Thats fucking nuts. Pity the other two abilities are not that helpful for us.

I've heard Miracles really, really likes planeswalkers that make tokens.

[Zombie]

I played elves last weekend in Cincinnati and felt like I had the best deck in the room.

4 deathrite shaman
4 fyndhorn/llanowar elves
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Quirion Ranger
3 Heritage Druid
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Regal Force
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Priest of Titania

4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order

1 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah
1 Dryad Arbor
9 Green Fetchlands
4 Gaea's Cradle

4 Cabal Therapy
1 Thoughtseize
2 Meekstone
1 Gaddock Teeg
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Progenitus
1 Natural Order
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Dryad Arbor

Only losses were to belcher and omniscience when I got flooded. Looks like I'm back to casting Elvish Visionarys for the foreseeable future : )

Meekstone <3
Priest and Regal still seem kinda bad, though. Did they pull their weight at all?
Why the extra Thoughtseize?

[Lemnear]

I've heard Miracles really, really likes planeswalkers that make tokens.

The same Miracle-players which first shrink Tarmogoyf and Mongoose first with Rest in Piece, just to Terminus them later anyways? lol

Honestly, I have the impression, that a large potion of pilots simply don't understand the beauty of Miracles and thus fail to crappy Token-generators

[Kayradis]

So,good news this week eh!
Crandersen back on Elves.

Shit gonna be reaaaaaaaal!

Who's thinking about playing the deck in DC?

[igri_is_a_bk]

Meekstone is interesting because RUG has no reason to bring in Ancient Grudge for game two and they may not get a chance for game three. Although, we already have Ooze and Decay, which are also great here, and I think more applicable across the legacy scene.

Hang on, you're missing Ooze in the 75. Have you tested him? He's a cheap, disruptive threat that gets bonkers w/ Cradle.

[Kayradis]

True.
Meekstone is one fun thing....

[Chrandersen]

I don't really like ooze right now. DRS does enough regarding graveyard removal, and you dont really have a need for a large body. Ooze is a fine man and I suppose you could cut a meekstone if you felt so inclined. I just really like meekstone. I have never lost a game where I cast one against rug.

Thoughtseize is awesome and I would add one before I cut one.

Priest is very good against sneak and show. Also it's too powerful not to have as a green sun's zenith target, especially with 3 quirion rangers and 4 symbiotes.

Regal Force is better than the second Craterhoof, because it plays much better with green sun's zenith. Gszing for hoof kinda sucks because you usually tapped all your guys to cast the zenith. With regal it doesn't matter if they're tapped, you still get the cards.

[HammafistRoob]

But a lot of times when you'rd drawing 20 cards off glimpse you'd end up drawing your hoof and then have to pass the turn. Regal Force sucks.

[Lemnear]

I don't really like ooze right now. DRS does enough regarding graveyard removal, and you dont really have a need for a large body. Ooze is a fine man and I suppose you could cut a meekstone if you felt so inclined. I just really like meekstone. I have never lost a game where I cast one against rug.

Thoughtseize is awesome and I would add one before I cut one.

Priest is very good against sneak and show. Also it's too powerful not to have as a green sun's zenith target, especially with 3 quirion rangers and 4 symbiotes.

Regal Force is better than the second Craterhoof, because it plays much better with green sun's zenith. Gszing for hoof kinda sucks because you usually tapped all your guys to cast the zenith. With regal it doesn't matter if they're tapped, you still get the cards.

Please read the thread from the beginning. He had the topics of 2nd Hoof vs. Regal Force and the application of Ooze well covered.

Regal Force does nothing if you face combo, sweepers or stifle