[Primer] Elves!

[Lord_of_Rivendell]

Are there any other options beside discard and thorn/thalia? Does the only option remaining in this same vein boil down to what he was suggesting...blue counterspells?

Myself, I keep coming back to Winter Orb. While not a clear replacement for Thorn/Thalia, they are mighty powerful against MANY decks and the effect on us is minimal.

[HammafistRoob]

But Winter Orb doesn't do anything against combo, except maybe High Tide and fairly rarely Omnitell. Most combo decks have a very minimal reliance on lands in general and they only need at most two untapped lands to just kill you. I feel like dropping a Winter Orb slows you down as much if not more than other combo decks because you essentially waste your 2nd turn playing it.

[Dice_Box]

Winter Orb holds less sway in my mind than Choke does. If i was going to run one of them it would be choke.

Really, the best answer to fighting combo I think is raking their hands or being faster.

[danyul]

IMO Winter Orb is better vs fair decks than combo decks. Teeg + discard + resistors + speed are your best tools vs combo.

[catmint]

I think this is what you may be looking for. The only difference is that Progenitus is in the sb. On that note, I wouldn't advise running 3 fatties... It's very similar to Lemnear's build. He first proposed cutting llanowar completely for birchlores.

Thanks Nudon.. this is indeed very similar to what I have in mind. Congrats to your finish!
You are probably right that 2 NO targets is better than 3. But have you seriously considered running 1 Progenitus and 1 Hoof maindeck?
If you reflect on your report are how often would a Progenitus get the job done against the fair decks?
And would it have been possible to cast NO-Prog. a turn earlier than hoof?
Or what if they would have disrupted you more by discarding/killing small dudes, wouldn't NO-Prog have been a nice alternative route?
Except Miracles there are no G1 answers for Prog and with the creature heavy midrange and tempo decks not playing perish or supreme verdict, also the post-board answers are very limited.

I don't understand anyone playing Ruric main over Progenitus unless your meta is something like 40%+ combo. Ruric can be sworded/blocked by fair decks where Progenitus just wins. However do you still want to cut Ruric from the SB nudon? Your build is really focused on powering out NO and with Ruric and Teeg you have 8 business spells that become combo hate postboard.

One big advantage of playing 4 NO and the Prog main is that you have more sideboard cards for high impact cards for specific matchups like thorn and winter orb.

[MD.Ghost]

@catmind: Against fair decks you dont need progenitus game 1, as you said, no deck has specific hate (perish, plague etc.) So game 1 is should be easier, problems come with sideboard hate so progenitus is a common answer game 2/3. Against most combo decks we have a hard time, sure sometimes we are faster but without ruric (or weird teeg) maindeck, you will lose more often. Sure you can fight back game 2, but even if you win, game 3 they will start and can kill you before you apply any pressure/defense. I prefer winning game 1 against other combo decks.

[Kayradis]

To be honest, against combo decks, I try to resolve Ruric Thar, thru NO or hardcast him, as fast as possible.
To get rid of him G1, they have to dig in their SB(-6 lives) then cast a bounce spell(-6 lives). Ruric just did 12 damages.

Usually he seals the game against combo.

[Lemnear]

Why does everyone, arguing in favor of Llanowar over Birchlores, defraud the fact that it produces black/white mana for Sideboard-cards and DRS-activations, as well as turning summoning sick Elves into mana for turn 2 Cradle boosts (NO!) or Glimpse chains?

[Absolutflipz]

Why does everyone, arguing in favor of Llanowar over Birchlores, defraud the fact that it produces black/white mana for Sideboard-cards and DRS-activations, as well as turning summoning sick Elves into mana for turn 2 Cradle boosts (NO!) or Glimpse chains?

I agree. I think his greatest utility comes in SB games where you want more ways to reliably cast your Thoughtseize/Therapy, Abrupt Decays, etc.

I personally would cut a Heritage Druid before cutting a Birchlore Ranger from my list (currently running 2 Birchlore). Heritage Druid is really one of the weaker cards in the deck and does nothing when not comboing, and you only need 1 to go off. As a 3-of with 4 GSZ, I think it's fine. This is a sidenote to the point, but I think cutting one of her is a definite spot for something else to come in to the maindeck.

[Koby]

Why does everyone, arguing in favor of Llanowar over Birchlores, defraud the fact that it produces black/white mana for Sideboard-cards and DRS-activations, as well as turning summoning sick Elves into mana for turn 2 Cradle boosts (NO!) or Glimpse chains?

Because we're already running 10!!!! fetchlands to find Bayou, including a pair of Bayou. That's >65% of your mana draws.

EDIT: as for the 2nd point, yes it certainly helps and I've conceded that point in my earlier post(s). I still posit that a Turn 2 non-lethal Hoof is just as deadly as a Turn 3 in terms of damage output.

[Dice_Box]

My Bayou dies almost instantly to Wasteland about 75% of the time I pull it out. Maybe that's just me. My second one does not, but the first does not have a good shelf life. Also if you want Green, White and Black, Bayou is not going to help you. I have seen some nuts things happen with Mana elves, I have done some nuts things with Rangers. I think in this we have hit a personal choice wall. I am not a fan of Llanawar, others are. That's fine but I do not see there being a whole lot to gain by trying to push a topic when people have made their choices, each for totally valid reasons.

[Lemnear]

Because we're already running 10!!!! fetchlands to find Bayou, including a pair of Bayou. That's >65% of your mana draws.

"We"? Dood, your latest list you posted and I remember had 16 Lands in total among 8 Fetches and 3 Cradles while I was already running 19 lands and 10 Fetches, so I don't see the sudden Reid Duke bandwagoning as given.

I wouldn't act as if Wasteland and Stifle do not exist :/

[Koby]

"We"? Dood, your latest list you posted and I remember had 16 Lands in total among 8 Fetches and 3 Cradles while I was already running 19 lands and 10 Fetches, so I don't see the sudden Reid Duke bandwagoning as given.

You remember wrong. I've always had 4 Cradles!
I also realize my manabase is in the minority of such configurations, so it's pointless to argue with my dissenting view. Hence, I'm talking for the majority list, which appears to be inching closer to 18 lands and 2 Dryad Arbor. I'm still of the opinion that it's 2 lands too many (-1 fetch -1 Dryad Arbor).

There is a huge disconnect between these two statements:

the fact that it produces black/white mana for Sideboard-cards and DRS-activations

I wouldn't act as if Wasteland and Stifle do not exist :/

Decks in which we need to utilize the black cards and Teeg are rarely decks that also play a full set of Wastelands.
Against such decks, I have zero reservations to deploy Bayou and Savannah.

[Julian23]

Streaming the Legacy Daily Event with Elves! Tune in and have a good time :-) http://www.twitch.tv/itsjulian

[catmint]

@catmind: Against fair decks you dont need progenitus game 1, as you said, no deck has specific hate (perish, plague etc.) So game 1 is should be easier, problems come with sideboard hate so progenitus is a common answer game 2/3. Against most combo decks we have a hard time, sure sometimes we are faster but without ruric (or weird teeg) maindeck, you will lose more often. Sure you can fight back game 2, but even if you win, game 3 they will start and can kill you before you apply any pressure/defense. I prefer winning game 1 against other combo decks.

There are situations against fair decks where a Progenitus has it's benefits in game 1:
- Behemoth being not good due to low creature count as caused by: Heavy disruption (Multiple removal/discard spells), mulligans, spell heavy hands, a countered Natural Order
- The opponent might have Stifle
- You don't want to pass the turn to wait for the creatures to be able to attack because opponent is more likely to counter/discard the NO in hand.
- The opponent can plow behemoth and stabalize.
- The opponent has some lock pieces like chalice/trinisphere.

But even if you work with the wrong assumption that Progenitus has no value game 1, the question should not be "do I need Progenitus game1". The question is "do I need 2 behemoth game 1 or can I free up a sideboard slot because in 95% of the cases either Progenitus or Behemoth get the job done anyway".

The only scenarios coming to mind where Progenitus G1 hurts:
- Not castable compared to a relatively dead behemoth.
- We draw behemoth and NO for Progenitus does not get the job done (Terminus, we are outraced).

Not saying to have the right answer whether the advantages outweigh the disadvantages. I think it goes in favour of Prog maindeck and maybe you can keep an open mind while testing.

[nudon]

Thanks Nudon.. this is indeed very similar to what I have in mind. Congrats to your finish!
You are probably right that 2 NO targets is better than 3. But have you seriously considered running 1 Progenitus and 1 Hoof maindeck?
If you reflect on your report are how often would a Progenitus get the job done against the fair decks?
And would it have been possible to cast NO-Prog. a turn earlier than hoof?
Or what if they would have disrupted you more by discarding/killing small dudes, wouldn't NO-Prog have been a nice alternative route?
Except Miracles there are no G1 answers for Prog and with the creature heavy midrange and tempo decks not playing perish or supreme verdict, also the post-board answers are very limited.

I don't understand anyone playing Ruric main over Progenitus unless your meta is something like 40%+ combo. Ruric can be sworded/blocked by fair decks where Progenitus just wins. However do you still want to cut Ruric from the SB nudon? Your build is really focused on powering out NO and with Ruric and Teeg you have 8 business spells that become combo hate postboard.

One big advantage of playing 4 NO and the Prog main is that you have more sideboard cards for high impact cards for specific matchups like thorn and winter orb.

Thanks, glad I was able to help. I haven't considered running Progenitus in place of the 2nd hoof due to not needing him game 1 in my experiences. Progenitus was key in winning me several game 2s because I was fairly liberal with playing glimpse (baiting counters) since I knew NO->prog was my backup plan. With that said, I didn't drop a single game all tournament to any fair deck so I don't feel as if having Progenitus game 1 would have done much. The situations where you want to wait a turn before NO->hoof but wouldn't wait with NO->Progenitus game 1 is rare in my opinion.

Under heavy disruption (i.e. jitte lock), having Progenitus available is nice but I don't think it outweighs the burden of increasing the chances of drawing him (much worse than drawing hoof) over the course of a long tournament. I haven't been able to play much recently due to other obligations so my sb is still the same except for +1 thorn, -1 ruric. Thorn doesn't work very well with NO so I think it's correct to board NO out. With that said, if you're running 7+ discard like some others on this thread, it may be worthwhile to keep ruric.

[Phelix]

Played this at a BoM trial last weekend. I chose the 1 birchlore plan:

http://mtgpulse.com/event/14477#205012



2 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Heritage Druid
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Fyndhorn Elves
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Birchlore Rangers
1 Regal Force
1 Priest of Titania
1 Viridian Shaman
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Dryad Arbor



Instant [1]
1 Crop Rotation

Sorcery [11]
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Glimpse of Nature
3 Natural Order

Land [17]
4 Gaea's Cradle
3 Windswept Heath
3 Verdant Catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Savannah

SB:
1 Progenitus
2 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Thorn of Amethyst
4 Dread of Night


Meta was combo light, had many DnT (and Merfolk wtf)

Id probably play a ruric thar in the board and a second hoof in the main if I had to do it Again (cutting 1 dead of night from the board)

Lost only one game 2-1 in the finals vs Wb DnT-ish deck (game three i had triple dread of night in play on turn two, and lost. go figure)

[Wurst2000]

How good was joraga warcaller? I can see that it is a wincondition thats still good in a glimpse turn but is this good enough? Why did you play only 2 Quirion ranger? for me it always was a natural 4off and it was never a card a was unimpressed with.

[th3 w1z4rd]

You would need to go absolutely bananas with Birchlore Rangers in order to hardcast Progenitus. Tragically, I have drawn him literally every single time I sided him in, so I am heavily biased against having Prog maindeck.

[Phelix]

How good was joraga warcaller? I can see that it is a wincondition thats still good in a glimpse turn but is this good enough? Why did you play only 2 Quirion ranger? for me it always was a natural 4off and it was never a card a was unimpressed with.

puurdy good. if I bring in hoof number 2, i will probably cut the warcaller - the bad thing about him is that none of the tutors lets us use the kicker on him, but when he is drawn "naturally" he is a total beast. after boarding he is of course lovely in dodging Engineered plague

on Quirion ranger: he is allright, but imo one of the weakest Cards in the deck. as a 4 off, very often you dont have more than 1 or two forrests to bounce, and on turn two, you often cant use the bounce anyway, in order to go off on turn 3. I think a lower number 2-3 has a pretty good argument.