[SCD] True-Name Nemesis

[Lim-Dul]

Let talk about the price of the nemesis. on ebay the first ones are for sale and allready 36$ and still 5h to go..how high will it go? what would you be willing to pay? if we compare it to scavening ooze, which was only used as a one-of in maverick, the price of nemesis that will be used as 2-3 offs must be extremly high. 50$? or even more..

[Rush80]

Let talk about the price of the nemesis. on ebay the first ones are for sale and allready 36$ and still 5h to go..how high will it go? what would you be willing to pay? if we compare it to scavening ooze, which was only used as a one-of in maverick, the price of nemesis that will be used as 2-3 offs must be extremly high. 50$? or even more..

What if...

the Identity price overlaps Tarmo?

[Barook]

While Nemesis is retarded strong, I doubt it gets banhammered anytime soon.

However, what could happen is a huge-format warping effect that results in a format with less variety. Basically, the second coming of Tarmogoyf.

And the price is going to be absurdly high.

[troopatroop]

It's already begun. The whole game is about landing Nemesis first. It's an injection of absurd power creep.

imo xD

[Deviruchi]

looks like i'll be preordering 4 mind seize commander sets. it has baleful strix AND "true-name" nemesis

I wanted to do this after reading your post. Then I forgot about it and my locals made "Mind Seize Deck" cost a lot more (jump from 30$ to 50$) and 1 Nemesis is now for 20$. I think I will wait now.

EDIT: And they are gone at 50$/each.

[Goaswerfraiejen]

So what are your preferred solutions at the moment (beyond counterspells)? I know it's kind of too early to tell, but we might as well brainstorm.

Golgari Charm? Sandstorm? Toxic Deluge? Sudden Spoiling? Pyroclasm? Cave-In? Dry Spell? Infest?

[Star|Scream]

So what are your preferred solutions at the moment (beyond counterspells)? I know it's kind of too early to tell, but we might as well brainstorm.

Golgari Charm? Sandstorm? Toxic Deluge? Sudden Spoiling? Pyroclasm? Cave-In? Dry Spell? Infest?

Why do people keep suggesting Pyroclasm?

Edit: Please re-read the card!

[Dice_Box]

Pre order costs for the card are higher than the deck it comes in. WTF? Do people not know they can just buy the fucking deck?

[Julian23]

Show me one place where you can buy the deck at MSRP...

[Richard Cheese]

Pre order costs for the card are higher than the deck it comes in. WTF? Do people not know they can just buy the fucking deck?

Try finding somewhere that has the deck in stock at $60...

[Dice_Box]

I know a place in Bris that sold the 20th box at stock... I think I can get this one at stock too.

Pity I did not find out what the price on the box was at that place until a week after it came out.

[wcm8]

I've tested this guy in a few different Delver tempo builds.

BUG:
-He's a nice threat to help close out the game. He's a Mongoose that doesn't interfere with your own reliance on the graveyard (DRS mostly, but your White opponents are also likely going to bring in Rest in Peace.)
-He's taking the Tombstalker slot. TNN is much easier to cast (no reliance on graveyard), and dodges every removal spell, not just Burn and Decay. Also, while it's true that TNN can't block flipped Delvers, he doesn't get Submerged in post-board games against your RUG opponents.
-DRS makes it so he's a bit easier to actually resolve.
-Increasing the Blue count is also worthwhile, since in builds that run Hymn to Tourach the Blue count is rather low.
-The evasion is especially helpful since without Burn, it's often difficult to deal with Planeswalkers. This means you won't really need to waste a sideboard slot on something like Thrun or Creeping Tarpit. Umezawa's Jitte also becomes much more enticing as a sideboard option.

Overall Grade: A+
2-3 in the main deck are a nice addition to this archetype, and may help bring Team America back to Tier 1. As a slightly more mid-rangey type of tempo deck, BUG seems to benefit a lot from this creature. Decks that run Swords to Plowshares were often some of the hardest matchups for TA, and TNN is a step towards patching up that weakness without giving up the other advantages of running this color combination. Along with Toxic Deluge, BUG tempo just got a lot stronger.

RUG:
-Much more difficult to resolve, since I don't play RUG with more than 19 lands typically.
-Nimble Mongoose is much more efficient for close to the same effect.
-RUG almost never wants to tap out (you typically need to leave mana up for things like Spell Pierce or Stifle, etc.)
-RUG also almost never wants to make its 3rd land drop, and would rather shuffle them away via Brainstorm + Fetch.
-Against control/midrange decks, you're probably just better off running Sulfuric Vortex if you're looking for this sort of effect. Or try running Price of Progress for a sudden blowout.

Overall Grade: D-
I could see 1 maybe making it into the maindeck, but really this creature doesn't seem to offer much to RUG that isn't already achieved with its other options. Against Control, you might just be better off with the singleton Sylvan Library. I'm not sure the effect is really strong enough to justify spending sideboard slots on him either.

UWR:
-Obviously benefits from Stoneforge in the deck. Having this guy connect with a Jitte or Sword of X&Y closes out the game against most decks that rely on creatures.
-Competes against Snapcaster, Geist and Clique for the 3-drop slot. These are better against Combo, but it's arguable about which is best against Control.

Overall Grade: B+
It's a good card that can steal games, but in a lot of cases Geist would have been achieving the same thing. I don't think it necessarily pushes UWR into any higher Tier; the end game of equipment is just slightly improved.

UR:
-In a deck that plays some number of basic lands, hitting 3 mana isn't too much of a problem.
-UR lacks access to Mongoose, which makes TNN a much more reasonable choice to help close out games.
-The higher density of Burn also makes its clock much more reasonable, even without the addition of equipment.
-It's competing against Snapcaster and Young Pyromancer. I think that UR can use the help of TNN since these guys can't hold off a Goyf attack, Batterskull token, etc. and lack evasion.

Overall Grade: A
UR benefits from the inclusion of TNN for sure. I think UR is also a reasonable meta choice right now: Basic Lands can help you win through a field of Wasteland; you still have an incredibly strong combo matchup; you laugh at Blood Moon.dec; Price of Progress can blow out midrange decks like BUG Cascade and Jund; Grim Lavamancer is a great answer to Deathrite Shaman; with careful sideboarding, creature decks aren't much of a problem either.

Untested Speculation:
UBR: I am still not sure if this is a deck yet. However, you could probably safely run TNN with Dark Confidant, whereas Tombstalker + Confidant was asking for trouble.
BURG: This doesn't really need TNN any more than RUG does. I've also come to the conclusion that the disruption to the manabase that comes with going for 4-colors simply isn't worth it.*
UW: Ah, now here's something that might be interesting. Along with the new addition of Unexpectedly Absent, UW Tempo might make for a reasonable deck. Delver, Stoneforge, TNN, and perhaps a couple of Snapcasters could be a decent threat base. You could also have a *minor* splash to gain access to some sideboard cards (probably Red, but Black could also offer some interesting options as well).

*except in the case of Lejay's BUG Cascade list, here the single Badlands for Whipflare is awesome.

[joven]

So what are your preferred solutions at the moment (beyond counterspells)? I know it's kind of too early to tell, but we might as well brainstorm.

Golgari Charm? Sandstorm? Toxic Deluge? Sudden Spoiling? Pyroclasm? Cave-In? Dry Spell? Infest?

Why do people keep suggesting Pyroclasm?

Edit: Please re-read the card!

lol, Damage won't work. Options are thin! :D
So, no Sandstorm and Dry Spell either. Try Nausea or Shrivel instead. :D

Toxic Deluge
Infest
Golgari Charm / Shrivel / Nausea
Mutilate
Engineered Plague
most Wrath effects like Supreme Verdict and Terminus
conditional sacrifice effects like Diabolic Edict and Liliana of the Veil
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
Ratchet Bomb / Powder Keg
(Sudden Spoiling needs some additional effect to kill)

It's a short list! Many decks won't be able to do anything (aside from stuff like Nevinyrral's Disk or Ratchet Bomb). ;)
And about countering: Cavern of Souls. WoTC have planned this mess all along! :D

[jbone2016]

lol, Damage won't work. Options are thin! :D
So, no Sandstorm and Dry Spell either. Try Nausea or Shrivel instead. :D

Toxic Deluge
Infest
Golgari Charm / Shrivel / Nausea
Mutilate
Engineered Plague
most Wrath effects like Supreme Verdict and Terminus
conditional sacrifice effects like Diabolic Edict and Liliana of the Veil
Llawan, Cephalid Empress
Pernicious Deed
Engineered Explosives
Ratchet Bomb / Powder Keg
(Sudden Spoiling needs some additional effect to kill)

It's a short list! Many decks won't be able to do anything (aside from stuff like Nevinyrral's Disk or Ratchet Bomb). ;)
And about countering: Cavern of Souls. WoTC have planned this mess all along! :D

Runed Halo so we can just ignore it.

[Cynic13th]

Try finding somewhere that has the deck in stock at $60...

From what I've heard it's not a limited print run... so just wait and get it at Target or Walmart.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Let talk about the price of the nemesis. on ebay the first ones are for sale and allready 36$ and still 5h to go..how high will it go? what would you be willing to pay? if we compare it to scavening ooze, which was only used as a one-of in maverick, the price of nemesis that will be used as 2-3 offs must be extremly high. 50$? or even more..

Which is retarded because WotC already said this isn't limited release so you are paying almost retail of a full of the deck for a single card. Just proof of how stupid some people are. I feel like these are the same people who were paying $40 per Temporal Mastery or $20 for 4th edition Land Tax the day is was unbanned.

[Sasan]

I've tested this guy in a few different Delver tempo builds.

BUG:
-He's a nice threat to help close out the game. He's a Mongoose that doesn't interfere with your own reliance on the graveyard (DRS mostly, but your White opponents are also likely going to bring in Rest in Peace.)
-He's taking the Tombstalker slot. TNN is much easier to cast (no reliance on graveyard), and dodges every removal spell, not just Burn and Decay. Also, while it's true that TNN can't block flipped Delvers, he doesn't get Submerged in post-board games against your RUG opponents.
-DRS makes it so he's a bit easier to actually resolve.
-Increasing the Blue count is also worthwhile, since in builds that run Hymn to Tourach the Blue count is rather low.
-The evasion is especially helpful since without Burn, it's often difficult to deal with Planeswalkers. This means you won't really need to waste a sideboard slot on something like Thrun or Creeping Tarpit. Umezawa's Jitte also becomes much more enticing as a sideboard option.

Overall Grade: A+
2-3 in the main deck are a nice addition to this archetype, and may help bring Team America back to Tier 1. As a slightly more mid-rangey type of tempo deck, BUG seems to benefit a lot from this creature. Decks that run Swords to Plowshares were often some of the hardest matchups for TA, and TNN is a step towards patching up that weakness without giving up the other advantages of running this color combination. Along with Toxic Deluge, BUG tempo just got a lot stronger.

RUG:
-Much more difficult to resolve, since I don't play RUG with more than 19 lands typically.
-Nimble Mongoose is much more efficient for close to the same effect.
-RUG almost never wants to tap out (you typically need to leave mana up for things like Spell Pierce or Stifle, etc.)
-RUG also almost never wants to make its 3rd land drop, and would rather shuffle them away via Brainstorm + Fetch.
-Against control/midrange decks, you're probably just better off running Sulfuric Vortex if you're looking for this sort of effect. Or try running Price of Progress for a sudden blowout.

Overall Grade: D-
I could see 1 maybe making it into the maindeck, but really this creature doesn't seem to offer much to RUG that isn't already achieved with its other options. Against Control, you might just be better off with the singleton Sylvan Library. I'm not sure the effect is really strong enough to justify spending sideboard slots on him either.

UWR:
-Obviously benefits from Stoneforge in the deck. Having this guy connect with a Jitte or Sword of X&Y closes out the game against most decks that rely on creatures.
-Competes against Snapcaster, Geist and Clique for the 3-drop slot. These are better against Combo, but it's arguable about which is best against Control.

Overall Grade: B+
It's a good card that can steal games, but in a lot of cases Geist would have been achieving the same thing. I don't think it necessarily pushes UWR into any higher Tier; the end game of equipment is just slightly improved.

UR:
-In a deck that plays some number of basic lands, hitting 3 mana isn't too much of a problem.
-UR lacks access to Mongoose, which makes TNN a much more reasonable choice to help close out games.
-The higher density of Burn also makes its clock much more reasonable, even without the addition of equipment.
-It's competing against Snapcaster and Young Pyromancer. I think that UR can use the help of TNN since these guys can't hold off a Goyf attack, Batterskull token, etc. and lack evasion.

Overall Grade: A
UR benefits from the inclusion of TNN for sure. I think UR is also a reasonable meta choice right now: Basic Lands can help you win through a field of Wasteland; you still have an incredibly strong combo matchup; you laugh at Blood Moon.dec; Price of Progress can blow out midrange decks like BUG Cascade and Jund; Grim Lavamancer is a great answer to Deathrite Shaman; with careful sideboarding, creature decks aren't much of a problem either.

Untested Speculation:
UBR: I am still not sure if this is a deck yet. However, you could probably safely run TNN with Dark Confidant, whereas Tombstalker + Confidant was asking for trouble.
BURG: This doesn't really need TNN any more than RUG does. I've also come to the conclusion that the disruption to the manabase that comes with going for 4-colors simply isn't worth it.*
UW: Ah, now here's something that might be interesting. Along with the new addition of Unexpectedly Absent, UW Tempo might make for a reasonable deck. Delver, Stoneforge, TNN, and perhaps a couple of Snapcasters could be a decent threat base. You could also have a *minor* splash to gain access to some sideboard cards (probably Red, but Black could also offer some interesting options as well).

*except in the case of Lejay's BUG Cascade list, here the single Badlands for Whipflare is awesome.

Thanks for your input, great read. I disagree with the statemens concerning bUrg - I will explain it later after more testings. But otherwise: Top Post!

[bruizar]

which is retarded because wotc already said this isn't limited release so you are paying almost retail of a full of the deck for a single card. Just proof of how stupid some people are. I feel like these are the same people who were paying $40 per temporal mastery or $20 for 4th edition land tax the day is was unbanned.

qft

Wizards will continue to produce and sell as long as there is a demand, since this deck has no impact on modern or standard. They are interested in selling cards, and as long as you are willing to buy them, they will sell them to you. This means that the market will be flooded with TNN and that the cost of the card on the second market is gradually going to decrease to the point where the card is worth a lot less than the deck. This will result in a loss for first buyers.

After this has all happened, they will reprint TNN in a coreset so you can get a foil version. We all know what happens then.

Anyone that buys TNN at these unreasonable prices are cows asking to get milked.

[Darkenslight]

Show me one place where you can buy the deck at MSRP...

Target says Hi.

[Barook]

I just noticed that Nemesis is a rather hilarious combo with Pariah - good luck racing now!

Probably not Legacy-playable, but who knows? Pariah can also stall your opponents or act as pseudo-removal.