I also like some of his ideas.Originally Posted by mike1987
I really like Michael Bernat's list from the invitational.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=60172
With so many shardless bug and tempo running rampant in my metagame, baleful strix is the silver bullet for this deck. If they destroy it, you are still a card ahead.
I did cut some of his discards for more lingering souls though. What can i say, i just love that card
I wonder why he plays 4 Kor Firewalkers, though... Does he really hate Burn? Submerge is also rarely seen in Esper Blade sideboards. I'm not sure about the 1-of Flusterstorm maindeck, but hey, I play a Misdirection maindeck :)
I also wonder if he plays 2 Jaces instead of 3 for availability reasons, or if he prefers to lower his curve. I've been considering going down to 2 Jaces, but I'm not sure if that's the right play...
Here is what I am considering for tonight:
// Artifact [4]
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
// Creature [10]
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Baleful Strix
1 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
// Instant [15]
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Misdirection
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
// Sorcery [5]
1 Ponder
1 Lingering Souls
1 Supreme Verdict
2 Thoughtseize
// Planeswalker [3]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
// Lands [23]
1 Academy Ruins
1 Karakas
2 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
1 Marsh Flats
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Scrubland
2 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
// Sideboard [15]
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
I was considering a 24th land to ensure my land drops against tempo decks, but I will try 23 lands + 1 Ponder + 1 Sensei's Divining Top. Ponder and SdT let me find lands in the early game, and powerful 1-of's in the late game... I'm trying a split of discard and counterspells. Instead of playing the usual 2 Inquisition of Kozilek / 2 Thoughtseize, I play only 2 Thoughtseize, and play more counterspells. That way, I still have a few discard spells against combo :)
The Lingering Souls might be better as a 4th Strix or a 2nd Snapcaster. I had to reduce the number of creatures to play Supreme Verdict maindeck... I also want to move the 4th FoW to the maindeck, but I don't know what to cut. Maybe go down to 2 Jaces?
I think I will also play Blade Control at the BoM, with True-Name Nemesis. I'm not yet sure if I want to play Esper Blade for Strix + Discard + Toxic Deluge or Patriot with a small red splash for Pyroblast / Blood Moon.
I like ur list. I will also be playing Blade Control at BoM. Going forward I'm looking to play something like 4stoneforge,4snapcaster,3 TNN as creature base. Basically I am replacing my Lingering Souls(3) for TNN. Im not sure TNN and Baleful Strix belong in the same list as TNN probably does a better job at that. I would rather have more snapcasters to gain value and be better against combo decks. I have tested 2 Toxic Deluge SB and I really like them so far. Apart from maybe hitting a snapcaster of your own the card is really good, especially when u dont play with Lingering Souls anymore. Also I prefer TNN in UWB Blade then in UWR,although there is something to say for being able to play blood moon.. Greetz-
Thanks :)
I'm going to play the devil's advocate here... But why do you prefer TNN in Esper Blade? I would think that it would be better in UWr, since it solves one of the problems of the red splash: the lack of good creatures to carry equipment. Esper Blade lists can play Lingering Souls and/or Baleful Strix, which means they have many great equipment carriers alongside Stoneforge Mystic, Snapcaster Mage, Clique, and Venser. The red splash only gives you Grim Lavamancer, which is not that great, so you often end up playing only blue and white creatures... With the printing of TNN, the red splash now has a very good equipment carrier, which makes it comparatively better. As a thought experiment, if TNN ends up being superior to Baleful Strix / Lingering Souls, then both splashs will have the same creature base of 4 SFM 4 Snapcaster 4 TNN, and they will then be compared across other dimensions (instants, sorceries, SB cards...).
Also, the Red splash has REB / Pyroblast to counter TNN against Merfolk and in the mirror match :)
That said, I think I will go with Esper, because I love Toxic Deluge and all the SB options ^^
My red splash does not run any TNN because red has an additional creature that other splashes don't have: Grim Lavamancer. A creature base of: 4 Sfm, 3 Clique, 3 Grim and 4 Snapcasters is more than enough. Also, red gives you bolt which makes playing a full set of Snapcasters worth while.
TNN takes the 3 drop slot so I will have to cut some cliques or Snapcasters to fit it. I don't see that happening because the red splash already dominates the creature matchups. Between grim, bolts, Stp and Snapcaster, mid range and aggro will get torched. TNN is not at all necessary.
Plus Clique really helps against the combo matchups which the red versions have a harder time against.
I forgot to mention that I am on the Rest in Peace SB plan, which means I try to minimize graveyard dependency in the maindeck to avoid anti-synergies when I bring in RiP post-board. With that in mind, red does not give me any good creatures, and I am left with blue and white creatures (SFM, SCM, Clique, Venser, Restoration Angel...). The black splash gives you Baleful Strix, Dark Confidant, Deathrite Shaman, and Lingering Souls (those last two have a GY dependency).
Also, when I tried Lavamancer in the past, I felt like it was hard to feed with this deck, since you don't play that many cantrips, and it also competes with your Snapcaster Mages. When I tried it, it didn't do much: if I play it T1 to prevent a T1 Deathrite Shaman, my opponent just refrains from playing creatures until he can kill it with it with a Decay / Bolt... When I wait for my opponent to play a threat before casting it, my opponent gets to untap with a Shaman / Confidant. But maybe I'm playing it wrong.
On another note, I went 3-1 with Esper StrixBlade yesterday at my local.
I played the list I posted above, with some small changes:
MD:
+1 Snapcaster Mage
-1 Supreme Verdict
SB:
+1 Blue Elemental Blast
+1 Path to Exile
-1 Zealous Persecution
-1 Cabal Therapy
I forgot to put the Verdict in the deck instead of the SCM before the tournament. It would have helped against the Elves MU.
I didn't play Cabal Therapy. I felt that it was better in Esper Blade lists that play 4+ other discard spells. Since I only play 2 Thoughtseize, it's less powerful.
I didn't have a Zealous Persecution. I sorely missed it against Elves. It would have also been good for the Storm matchup (to kill his goblins), though I won without it.
Going forward, I want to play either a second E.E. MD, or a Supreme Verdict.
// Sideboard [15]
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Sword of Feast and Famine
SB: 1 Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 2 Notion Thief
SB: 2 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Darkblast
SB: 1 Disenchant
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 1 Zealous Persecution
SB: 1 Cabal Therapy
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
[/cards]
Round 1 - Food Chain / Griffin combo - 2-0
Round 2 - Weird MUD - 2-0
Round 3 - Elves - 0-2
He overwhelmed me both games, and I didn't find my answers (E.E., Verdict...). I had a Jitte in G1, but no flying creature to equip it
Round 4 - TES - 2-0
I cast Thoughtseize in both games. I would have lost if those were Spell Pierce, since he had tons of mana.
G1 I knew he was on Storm. We both mulled to 6, and I found FoW + Spell Pierce, then later Snapcaster + Clique + Thoughtseize.
G2 I mulled to 6 and kept Thoughtseize, SFM * 2, lands * 3. He probed me T1 but was uneable to combo off. My T1 Thoughtseize slowed him down enough for me to draw counterspells. At some point I had a board of SFM and Clique equipped with SoFaF. He attempted to combo off, but I disrupted is plan with counters, and he was forced to wish for Diminishing Returns to try to go off again the next turn. During my turn, I had a devious plan. Since he had one card in hand, and my attack wouldn't have been letal, I declined to attack with the SoFaF-equipped Clique, pinging him simply with SFM. He thanked me for giving him a little hope, but was a little worried. On his turn, he casts Diminishing Returns. I respond with Notion Thief :) GG.
Ended up 3-1 (5th out of 30). I sadly didn't get any prize :( I think first got Underground Sea (Revised), second got Jace, and third some 40-50€ card which I forgot.
I'm still on Vidi's list and I think I'm just going to go -3 Lingering Souls, +3 True-Name Nemesis. Both are 3cc Sorcery-speed spells that you can either use defensively or offensively and both are difficult to "kill". I like that True-Name Nemesis makes us slightly less reliant on the graveyard while upping our blue count for FoW.
When do you side out / side in Equipment?
At the BoM Trial today, I sided out Jitte for SOFAF against RUG Delver and MUD.
Against RUG, my reasoning was that SOFAF gives protection from Green, allowing me to kill Goyf and Goose, or attack through them. After the round (which I won 2-0, without seeing any SFM / Equipment), he told me that Jitte is very good against him due to the life gain / Delver killing ability.
The MUD player also told me that Jitte is very good against him, since it can kill Revoker, Metalworker, and Lodestone Golem...
Do you side SOFAF in only against combo and control? Do you ever side out Batterskull? Do you sometimes side all 3 in?
I only side in SoFaF when Jitte is dead to the matchup at hand. Jitte is better than any sword vs. RUG because it kills Delver, gains life, puts your creatures out of Bolt range after one connection. Jitte deters your opponent from swining with his threats if he doesn't have a blocker available.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
How do you define "dead to the matchup at hand"? If the opponent is playing any amount of creatures, you keep Jitte in? Or when you need the lifegain (e.g. burn)? For example, would you keep Jitte versus Miracles, since it plays a few Clique / Snapcaster?
A corollary of my question would be: which do you fetch first? For example, against RUG, do you grab Batterskull or Jitte with your first SFM? If you grab BS, they can just kill the SFM to strand it in your hand, or Stifle the germ token...
I pretty much almost never bring Jitte out. Even when it's not backbreaking to an opponent, it still makes all of our crappy little guys a ridiculous threat.
I think I didn't have enough bodies for Jitte to be really effective. I'm going to up the number of creatures for today's main event at the BoM :)
I side out Jitte vs. dedicated control and combo. Miracle's creatures are residual value, they don't actually care if you remove them. Against RUG it depends on if you can protect the skull or not.
Do you know what assuming does? It makes an ass out of you and me.
Get it...? Ass, u, me?
... ffs I was trying to be funny...
Punishing fire.
Legacy: Rituals
Vintage: Drains
Thoughts on straight UW again now that TNN is out? One of the biggest reasons for Esper was Lingering Souls, but TNN seems as good/better than Souls at inevitability, defense, Equip-carrier.
I was thinking about going back to straight UW as well. The only concern I have in dropping red (and possibly also black because of Zealous Persecution) is that we lose SB cars that are very strong against several of Stoneblade's weaknesses, namely:
- Jace;
- Weenie decks playing exclusively on board, like Maverick and the coming-back Death and Taxes, where Sulfur Elemental is absurd;
- A solution to Counterbalance, Geist, True-Name Nemesis-again, in the form of REB;
[- fast sweeper in the form of Pyroclasm.]
- A hard counter for Show and Tell.
While managing creatures is still doable in a different way via a mix of EEs and Supreme Verdict, I fear REB is hardly replaceable. If we deckbuild exclusively basing on important results by the last tournaments, though, such as BoM Paris and SCGs, REB's presence doesn't appear to be that mandatory, given all this flurry of ANTs, Elves and DnTs.
This very fact should lead us to notice something else: decks that are more likely to be successful are those based on very fast interactions, thus Jace, as much as he is strong, can be leveraged down to 2 copies maindeck now, with the third possibly in the sideboard. Broad removal aforementioned, on exchange, could provide a good MD configuration apt to fight the hordes of creatures. That SCG deckcheck featuring Stoneblade with 4 Verdicts had already got an intuition of the latest metagame shift, but imo that list was too much metagamed with narrow cards and definitely lacking on all-around good cards like Snap and Clique, which are tailor-made for this deck on many levels.
This is what I would play going straight UW.
4 Flooded Strand
3 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
6 Island
3 Plains
2 Tundra
1 Volcanic Island
1 Karakas
1 Academy Ruins
-22-
4 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Snapcaster Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
-12-
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Supreme Verdict
-8-
4 Brainstorm
1 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
-6-
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
-2-
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
-10-
Sideboard:
3 Flusterstorm
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Rest in Peace
[1 Surgical Extraction]
1 Elspeth, Knight Errant
1 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Back to Basics
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Disenchant
[Other options: Venser, 2nd Disenchant, Pithing Needle, Entreat the Angels, Unexpectedly Absent..]
This sounds kinda old-school, pre-Delver era, although with the evergood RIP in sideboard.
Some notes:
- Manabase as smooth as possible. The minimum number of dual lands possible, the maximum of basics avaiable. This boosts solidity. I'm willing to lose to Punishing Fire, odds that Wasteland is going to solve the problem are tremendously low anyways. Academy Ruins is necessary, though.
- 10 counters may be excessive, but it gives a wide array of options, good resilience to spell-based combo decks md and play a sort of draw-go feeling in the first turns, which is where we eant to be. Snare is necessary to stop CB, Dark Confidant, and so on. Maybe a CSpell could be cut to favor an additional cantrip, which would strenghten the sideboard as well.
- SB is kinda balanced to fight combo more than creature since we are already putting our eggs there quite a bit from game 1. Back to Basics could be as cute as ineffective, and I highly suspect so. I'd just rather add more proactive cards or bombs; a couple of Entreat the Angels could also be thought against BGx grindy decks by tweaking MD a bit in order to reach 2 Tops.
I feel this deck could fight everything, yet struggling every fucking time because it doesn't provide uber-broken synergies or tremendous sequences hardly manageable by good portion of the format (as Shardless and Jund often do). It's still the best reactive deck in terms of balance and capability to switch roles as well as solidity and curve, so it may be worth a shot.
EDIT: I still think True Name Nemesis is not suited for Stoneblade conceived as the tradition "control-aggro" version which tries to peak in Jace and winning mainly by outresourcing the opponent. It is more suited for "light" versions ft. Delver, as Patriot is, or where you can accelerate into playing it on t2 via Hierarch or Shaman (Bant, Deathblade). By itself it doesn't solve any of the previous weak spots, except maybe for being the only dork that survives PFire against Jund.
-----------------------------------------------------
Avatar of kicks_422's creation and property
I think TNN is perfect for Stoneblade. I'm running Esper with 4 Basics and 23 lands that gives me a pretty stable mana base. TNN is the perfect equipment carrier, is strong on defense, can effortlessly pressure the opponent's life total or PWs, and can on its own beat Jund or Shardless BUG, both decks that are tough match-ups.
I think straight UW with a lot of counters is just not right for the format because you're not really doing anything good enough. Miracles does that job better and some variants already have Stoneforge in them.
I can see red being an okay splash, but I think it's behind UWR Delver in terms of effectiveness.
Deathblade is better off as Shardless BUG probably.
The complementary pieces of Strix, TNN, Souls, and discard I think fit best with Stoneblade as a control deck as it can be proactively strong when need be without losing effectiveness as a control deck.
Blade Control decks, even harkening back to the days of Standard Cawblade dominance, always had a "Squadron Hawk" type spell to provide an evasive offensive Equip-carrier that was inefficient for the opponent to kill while at the same time providing defense if you're on the Jace-ultimate plan. Squadron Hawk -> Spellstutter Sprite -> Lingering Souls. The next spell to slot in that role is TNN, no? Or is a "Squadron Hawk" type spell no longer needed for SFM-Jace decks to compete? Against fair decks, Souls is incredible at advancing our gameplan... can't TNN replace Souls while providing a bit more offensive beef?
I switched to esper blade as my main deck roughly two months ago since I enjoy playing it so much, and am still undecided on whether TNN fits in the lingering souls slot. I think TNN is inherently more powerful, but lingering souls is also huge in a lot of scenarios. If you are hard-pressed to resolve a Jace and/or are stuck on 3 mana, running out souls against a possible daze is great. It also plays VERY nicely with supreme verdict, which many lists run 2 of (1 in the main, 1 in the board). Another slight problem I have with TNN is that fetching basics in the early game becomes a lot more tricky. I've had quite a few games where you want to fetch a swamp for a T1 discard spell, and then T2 fetch plains for stoneforge mystic. This leaves you with no way of casting TNN up until turn 4 if you have 2 blue lands afterwards. It seems marginal, but I've found these lines of play to be very relevant, and which play nicely with lingering souls.
TNN does provide a higher blue count, and carries equipment like a boss so not sure how I feel about it. It also lets us run RIP without much care as it only hits snapcaster. I'll do some testing once I get a hold of TNN, but the switch doesn't seem as clear cut as some make it out to be. It lends itself to a slightly more aggressive version of esper control, IMO.
These are exactly my findings while testing TNN. I play with 10fetches 4basics and I always try to get basics first. I had quite alot of games where I -as u mentioned had to fetch t1 swamp and didnt get to double UU on turn 3; while I could have access to it turn 4. This can be quite awkward as u dont want to get wasted either while fetching a dual the first few turns. Thus I agree that a UWr shell is probably the best for TNN(if you would play it. Atm im not convinced its that good in uwb. I tested it replacing the 3 Lingering Souls but it just doesnt seem right at times...) I would consider a light red splash for EE on 3 and maybe some SB rebs. They are just too good with snapcaster to ignore. I have played alot of UWx Stoneforge in the past. Dropping the discard isnt that bad as it may seem at first sight because playing reactive instead of proactive actually fits snapcaster way better. I will test with a UWr shell (4snapcaster,4sfm,3TNN).
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
