You can't stifle anything about Cavern of Souls.Originally Posted by monovfox
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Maybe this whole Stifle dabate gets odd but I don't understand the point that Stifle is a narrow card and only good 1st turn.
(by the way: I like how people at SCG opens copy Owen's list now...., not.)
Stifle has so many targets which are relevant to the board and the outcome of the game. Just to list some (not mentioning fetchlands, including also "permanent-trigger-counter" like Confidant):
Stoneforge Mystic
Snapcaster Mage
Planeswalkers
Jitte
Goblin Lackey/Matron/...
Ether Vial
Sulfuric Vortex
Storm trigger
Griselbrand
Dark Confidant
Mother of Runes
Flickerwisp
Qasali Pridemage
Ichorid
Bridge from Below
Narcomoeba
Elvish Visionary
Craterhoof Behemoth
...the list is getting to long now. I'll stop. Stifle is very broad card thus my current mb looks like this:
4 Delver of Secrets
2 True-Name Nemesis
3 Stoneforge Mystic
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Spell Pierce
3 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
3 Ponder
1 Umezawas' Jitte
1 Batterskull
4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Plains (should be a Tundra)
1 Island
4 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
WantToPonder
former: Team SpasticalAction & Team RugStar Berlin
Team MTG Berlin
The Dragonstorm
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...he-Dragonstorm
Is Geist of Saint Traft totally obselete now that TNN reigns the format? Geist is maybe more easily killed than TNN but there are lots of ways to get rid of TNN especially for black. I'm in the process of making an uwr delver deck right now so should I skip Geists and go straight for TNNs?
I fear so.
That's bad news, since I think Geist is much a better card than TNN, but unfortunately TNN is much stronger against most decks.
New videos of Owen playing UWR Delver on MTGO:
http://www.channelfireball.com/video...-uwr-delver-2/
The previous videos are at:
http://www.channelfireball.com/video...cy-uwr-delver/
Geist can still represent a faster clock, which may be relevant against combo. But in general, ground combat is now dominated by TNN.
TNN is basically better against any of the fair decks especially the tempo decks (mirror) and Death and Taxes. It's worse against the combo decks but this is a very bad reason for Playing Geist over TNN since they are both terrible in this matchup and this advantage only matters in G1, since your gonna board them out for G2 and G3 anyways. I think TNN is just a much more powerful card as Geist so you should probably just play TNN over Geist without any questions.
I'm gonna say that stoneforge mystic is the best creature card in the deck. So I think it's extremely wrong to not play the full 4 Playing 3 FOW 3 Spell pierce I could see. But I think Not playing the 4th ponder is just terrible since it fixes you draws so good. I'm almost never unhappy to have 1 in my hand and having 2 or 3 is not terrible at all. The 4th STP is also super important against a lot of decks and I think playing grim lavamancer main is not as strong as you might expect it to be ( against the decks it's good against it will often just die to removal). I would always add the 4th STP and the 4th stoneforge before adding Grim lavamancer's.
I think many people understand wrong what makes this deck so powerful. The deck is a lot less tempo'ish then the RUG version and often really tries to win on card advantage and you often have the card advantage sinc eyou play less lands. The deck just creates card advantage out of having less lands which makes this deck often being able to win the long game. And I think for that to work you need the stoneforge's ponders (to find land or nonland) and STP to really take advantage out of that.
I feel like if the game has progressed to the point where the best thing for you to Stifle is a Dark Confidant trigger then you should probably pack it in and move on to the next one. Trading real cards for virtual cards usually doesn't work out well in the long run, especially since you aren't even gaining any tempo.
The best things Stifle counters right now are fetchlands, Living Weapon triggers, Annihilator triggers, Liliana activations, and maybe an honorable mention for Storm triggers. It isn't narrow exactly, but I can understand the appeal of a more consistent stream of Pierces, FoWs, and Plows.
This. Stifle doesn't trade a card for another except in the case of Fetchlands, that's why it's just inferior to Pierce and screws your timings furtherly.
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Spell Pierce doesn't get you free wins.
No- it trades cards for turns. Thats the point of tempo :D... I dont think that the stifle/spell pierce debate will ever end...
The Spanish Tunnel King
Last edited by The Spanish Tunnel King; 12-04-2013 at 12:51 PM. Reason: To avoid double post
People must not keep one land brainstorm hands against you
I'd rather meta against good opponents...
Tipically doesn't understand the deck good. If you want to win by tempo play RUG delver and leave stoneforge mystic at home. What this deck offers you is having the actual card advantage without trading two for 1 because you have 2 lands and your opponent 5 which means you have 3 additional nonland cards and have kind-of cardadvantage. Your not killing your opponent really fast you win the lategame against a lot of decks by winning the early game. You just resolve a stoneforge and daze some of your opponent plays and here you are way ahead.
I understand both this deck (or at least my version of it) and Canadian Thresh very well - as my recent successes with it can demonstrate. Thats exactly why I leave the stoneforge at home... The tempo build is harder to play, which might be a turn off for some people, but well worth the investment in time. Its amazing how much value you can squeeze out of cards :). One thing that might be worth noting is that I firmly believe the tempo build is better in the mirror, which is more and more prevalent these days...
But yeah, it might be worth starting a new thread, as people here tend to talk across each other. But I guess its not practical... Its a shame because it would be nice getting some quality input if I tried to hone my deck some more....
Anywho, peace
The Spanish Tunnel King
I don't keep a 1-land+Brainstorm hand against almost anything except combo if I feel I have enough counters/disruption. I certainly wouldn't keep it against an aggro deck playing Wasteland, Stifle, Daze, etc.
And note that Stifle can be just as powerful if you stifle a post-Brainstorm fetch activation.
I think whether you want Stifle or not, or more Pierces, is dependent on your meta. Rather than debating which is objectively better in the abstract, it's probably fruitful to discuss the relative merits and trade-offs and metas.
Currently playing stifleless build.
I was looking to try 3 TNN main, which I am well aware is probably incorrect, but I wanted to get everyone's opinion on what they would swap out for it? I have been having a lot of trouble with this. I am expecting more fair decks in the upcoming tourney.
Currently running 3 pierces but this just doesnt feel right. anyone tried anything else? had the same problem with -1 daze
I tried cutting the 9th Fetch (so played 19 lands instead of 20) in place of the 3rd TNN. Feels okay. You lose to flooding less, lose to Wasteland/Stifle more.
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