[Deck] Death and Taxes

[DavidHernandez]

I just started playing Legacy after a long while spent intimidating myself out of it what with the price barrier and all, but given D&T's recent showings and just how much it suits my personality and playstyle, I decided to make the leap, sell off most of my standard collection, and get into this wonderful format I've been on the sidelines of for a while. I can see the deck has a steep learning curve, especially since most games I played were mine to lose. But can anyone give me the cliff notes? I don't expect to learn to play the deck overnight, but any advice you can give a new player would be much appreciated. One thing I've been wondering is if Runed Halo in the sideboard is too narrow? It deals with TNN but it doesn't seem to deal with much else, unfortunately.

Hi. You need to read the following thread in it's entirety.

http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=306633

Don't skip anything, and note that there are buttons to expand what is written. Also pay attention to the sections that discuss what your creatures can do. While several builds are listed, some of them are old and give a history of the formulation and evolution of the deck. Don't skip reading them, but don't be confused about what to play now. The current builds seem to be dropping Mangara of Corondor and one other card to play 3 x Serra Avenger. Builds seem to be going to 3 Karakas. Pay attention to the Flickerwisp tricks. You'll be tempted to play fewer than 3 of them. Don't. You need them.

The deck has a definite learning curve. People will tell you it's garbage, but then you beat them and they'll say "I can't believe I lost to that janky deck." They will blame their deck "breaking on them." It's just the way D&T works. Don't give up playing it. If you can take it to every tournament for the next 6 weeks, and really pay attention to the tricks and abilities of your creatures, you will be very pleased with your results. This deck is good against the entire field. You might run into some trouble vs. Elves!, but you can sideboard for that if it's in your local meta.

Dave

[Barbed Blightning]

Well, reading ALL of the forum is unreasonable. However, read the primer posts and the last few weeks' worth of pages (since at least GP: DC).

Side note(s):
Mangara is still very good right now, as TNN and DRS continue to slow the format. He has always been easy to hate on, but if left unchecked will run off with the game. I run two.

My list, for example (@peguinizer: I think you should run this, btw):


4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Serra Avenger
4 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

11 Snow-Covered Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
4 Karakas


Sideboard:
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Wilt-leaf Liege
2 Cataclysm
2 Oblivion Ring
2 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
1 Manriki-Gusari
1 Celestial Flare
1 Pithing Needle / Grafdiggers Cage



It's inspired by older D&T lists, around the time of Thalia's printing. I've opted for a more stable mana base and fewer "cute" tricks.


Lastly, and perhaps most importantly, the answer (as with all D&T strategy) to TNN lies in proactive disruption. In short, we are cultivating an environment in which our opposition struggles to survive, whilst our deck thrives. Runed Halo is too reactive, but fliers who sail over TNN and equipment like Sword of fire and ice, which gives pro blue to a ground dude, are the solution we seek.

[DavidHernandez]

Barbed: I meant he needs to read the initial primer post by Finn. LOL. Didn't realize it sounded like I meant the whole, entire, amazingly long thread.

Although that wouldn't hurt. I did it. Twice.

And then I won 3 tournaments with the deck.

I love D&T. Once you get used to the interactions and abilities of your pieces, this deck rocks.

P.S.: I like your deck list.

Dave

[anakyn]

People will tell you it's garbage, but then you beat them and they'll say "I can't believe I lost to that janky deck."

IMHO, it is garbage, and it is very strong nevertheless.
I'm not provoking: the 2 concepts doesn't necessary collide.
This deck seemed strong to me even before he burst on the Legacy metagame at GP Strasbourg. I was there and I remember very well how players around the world (and even commentators) were surprised by D&T performance. I wasn't surprised at all, only worried.

It all depends on your definition of "garbage": my definition involves the aesthetics of playing Magic the Gathering, and dropping a bunch of creatures that "do something strong" is not that attractive.
But it wins games nowadays, I'll surely give you that.

Unfortunately, this recent MtG tendency has brought us not only D&T rising, but also True-name nemesis, and God only knows (well, Wizard knows too :P) what's coming next.

For me, it all comes down to this: being strong is not enough to gain respect, and not D&T as a deck, nor TNN as a card will gain mine.

Just my humble opinion of course.

[Penguinizer]

Looking at the latest posts, should I play 3x Revoker or 4x Thalia (instead of 2x and 3x respectively) instead of the dumb singleton Elspeth I had in my list as filler? That and is Enlightened Tutor still a thing or should I modify my sideboard to be less of a toolbox and more 3-ofs and a Revoker/Mindcensor to complement my MD 2-ofs?

[Barbed Blightning]

snip

@Dave: thanks. I played back when MM was around and dropped it for a year or so. Glad to be back

@penguin: 4. Of both. Never any fewer. Drop the Elspeth. Go tutor less; the old tutor board was actually garbage against any non combo anyway

[DavidHernandez]

@penguin: 4. Of both. Never any fewer. Drop the Elspeth. Go tutor less; the old tutor board was actually garbage against any non combo anyway

You really must drop the Elspeth. And you must run 4 Thalia. Finn once told me: "This is a Thalia based deck." And it's true. You might not think so, but once you get to playing the deck you see how critical it is to land Thalia. After she is on the table, all your land destruction and other hate just locks the opponent out of playing. I happen to run 3 Revokers, but 4 is always an option that many (most?) D&T players consider essential. Never, ever run less than 3.

And don't add GREEN!!! We've had that conversation already and it turns into Maverick. If you want to add green, play Maverick -- and don't call it "Wg Death & Taxes!"

The thing about D&T is that you look at the list and the first thing you do is think "hmmm...this list looks like garbage. I can really make it better by adding xyz to it!!! No one ever thought of it, I bet!!!"

Yeah. They did. So do yourself a favor and don't get creative with this deck yet. Just play a vanilla version of the deck until you know what it does. Save yourself money and heartache. It will be worth it, I promise.

This is my current list:

Creatures:27
4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker (could be 4 if you drop a Mirran Crusader)
3 Serra Avenger
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Flickerwisp
2 Mangara of Corondor
3 Mirran Crusader (could be 2 if you add a Revoker)
1 Preacher (this is my pet card. I don't think anyone else runs it but it helps prevent stupid beasts from hitting the table until the opponent finds an answer...)

Spells:11
4 AEther Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of War and Peace -or- Sword of Fire and Ice (I've been testing War & Peace and really like it, but with True-Name Nemesis in the field, I think I will have to go back to SoFI)
1 Batterskull

Lands:22
1 Cavern of Souls (I LOVE THIS. Might buy a second one.)
3 Karakas
10 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland

I'm really liking the Serra Avengers. Never sorry to see them in my hand.

Dave

[lordofthepit]

Barbed: I meant he needs to read the initial primer post by Finn. LOL. Didn't realize it sounded like I meant the whole, entire, amazingly long thread.

Wrong. He needs to read the entire thread. Including the section during GP Strasbourg where we asky why Nathan Holt sounds like an Innistrad necromancer transported to modern-day Austria.

[Tylert]

Wrong. He needs to read the entire thread. Including the section during GP Strasbourg where we asky why Nathan Holt sounds like an Innistrad necromancer transported to modern-day Austria.

Strasbourg is not in Austria (But i don't blame you for being wrong on that... it was part of Germany some time ago).

[Penguinizer]

@penguin: 4. Of both. Never any fewer. Drop the Elspeth. Go tutor less; the old tutor board was actually garbage against any non combo anyway

All right, sounds like solid advice. I'll rework parts of my list accordingly. I tweaked the MB a bit to make room for 4x Revoker and 4x Thalia. I also re-did the sideboard to make it tutorless. I'm still missing 2 cards that I can't decide though. I might add Manriki-Gusari and a singleton Grafdigger's Cage or something.

Lands: 22
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

Creatures: 27
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
3x Aven Mindcensor
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
2x ???

[Tylert]

All right, sounds like solid advice. I'll rework parts of my list accordingly. I tweaked the MB a bit to make room for 4x Revoker and 4x Thalia. I also re-did the sideboard to make it tutorless. I'm still missing 2 cards that I can't decide though. I might add Manriki-Gusari and a singleton Grafdigger's Cage or something.

Lands: 22
4x Karakas
4x Wasteland
3x Rishadan Port
3x Flagstones of Trokair
8x Plains

Creatures: 27
4x Mother of Runes
4x Serra Avenger
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Flickerwisp
3x Mangara of Corondor

Spells: 11
4x Aether Vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Sword of Light and Shadow

Sideboard:
3x Rest in Peace
3x Aven Mindcensor
3x Oblivion Ring
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Cataclysm
2x ???

I would not play the flagstones personnally. You might end up getting timewalked by a wasteland in the upkeep phase.
Also, your list looks like what we were at before TE taking GP strasbourg :)
Back to basics... :)

[Penguinizer]

I would not play the flagstones personnally. You might end up getting timewalked by a wasteland in the upkeep phase.
Also, your list looks like what we were at before TE taking GP strasbourg :)
Back to basics... :)

Like I mentioned, I had taken a break from the format.

Also, the meta in Finland is weird so I'm pretty sure there'll be at least one person playing pox and such.

[anakyn]

snip

D&T is not just a creature deck.
On MTG salvation it is in the control category of legacy established decks, not in aggro or mid-range, for the simple reason that it is more a mana denial deck, than a creature deck. It punishes greedy manabases by wrecking non basic lands and keeping the opponent from casting spells.

Believe me: I know D&T very well. A friend of mine (who also writes here sometimes) owns it and we played countless games against each other, with me playing several kinds of deck: control, combo, aggro, anything.

You're perfectly right: the main peculiarity of this deck is the mana denial plan. It's something this deck accomplishes not only with lands, but also with the fundamental support of many of its creatures: Thalia of course, but also Revoker (on Shaman / Hierarch / any mana producing permanent), Mindcensor and Flickerwisp (bouncing lands or anything that produces mana, especially with Vial @3).
About 1/3 of the deck can accomplish denial, and you play the strongest denial cards.
Consequently, you have probably the strongest denial in the Legacy metagame.

And that's exactly why I call it a plague for the metagame of this format.
The fact of it being a "creature deck" is not that relevant in my opinion: it only says something about the general complexity, but nothing about the "fun factor".

You know, you are D&T players, you are very well positioned in the current metagame, you are clearly happy with it, 'cause you like the deck and you win with it. It's a wonderful world.

Now try to put yourself in the perspective of someone playing against D&T.
Your lands will probably be Wastelanded and/or Ported, your non-land mana resources will be Revoked, your removal will be useless because Mother is in play, when (and if) you'll have some land in play there will be Thalia negating any spell costing more than 2-3 and doubling the cost of any 1-CC spell, and when (and if) you'll finally will be able to cast something relevant, you'll be either dead or facing a Batterskull or some Jitte-equipped creature.

Very fun, uh?
Yeah, it's not fun at all.

Because this deck, in the end, uses different tools but accomplishes one fundamental goal: negates opponent's gameplan until it's too late to matter or recover.

And you know why I strongly consider that having this kind of deck as a dominant Tier 1 is a big problem for the metagame and health of this format?
Because none likes to lose this way.
When a new player approaches to Legacy, I don't think that playing against D&T will be the best thing for him to be appealed.

There are other "ugly" and "unfunny" ways to win or to lose, of course, therefore there are other decks/cards that potentially harm the health of Legacy.
Someone playing Emrakul on 1st or 2nd turn, for example. I admit without a problem that S&T decks are even worse than D&T under this perspective.

But I think no other decks are so frustrating to play against.

Yes, Canadian's denial plan is strong too, but not as strong as D&T, and the fact is: even if you've just lost against it without having the opportunity to develop your gameplan (which happens pretty often), probably you won't have the same distaste in your mouth. Because you just lost to a deck that, with the maximum efficiency possible, has used one of his lands and a couple of spells to negate your plan, while using in the meantime the other 1-2 lands to find some beaters and put them into play, and you find yourself a couple of turns later with no threats on the field, your removal countered, and an army of 3+ power creatures flying over your head or smashing through your defenses.
Surely it can be frustrating too, but you can't help but to admire a deck like this. Because it's spectacular, and next time you wanna play something like that.

And yes, combo too can leave you with a frustrating loss. I admit that losing to a 1st / 2nd turn Emrakul or Griselbrand it's not something to like, in fact Sneak & Show and Reanimator are, in my opinion, horrible decks as well.
But what about Storm? You can lose to it even faster, but wow, you lose in such a fashion that you'll want to storm yourself on next occasion.

Take Jund now. Another "garbage" deck if you ask me.
Linear, simple, strong: sometimes the deck will just win without you taking any effort or particular decision. You have discard, removal, lots of mana, card advantage, a reasonable clock: you can wreck or be wrecked by a deck like this.
But it lets you play your game.


My point in the end is: Death & Taxes is one of those deck that, while can amuse the players piloting it, will probably draw hatred, annoyance and grudge by almost anyone playing against it.

Honestly, if you can't explain your reasonning or don't want to, you should have stayed away from here.
It's open to everyone for discussion, not wrong fact stating without argumentation

I hope I just showed you none of your accusations were true.

[razvan]

You don't see me on the Jund thread knocking how mindless and linear the deck is (even if that is my opinion). TL;DR--if you ain't got something to contribute, don't bother posting.

Bring it on, foo', I'm ready! :P I kid, I kid.

1 Preacher (this is my pet card. I don't think anyone else runs it but it helps prevent stupid beasts from hitting the table until the opponent finds an answer...)

I ran 2 in the sideboard in the few games I had. Never drew it. I think it's awesome.

As for Thalia, she is so incredible. Calling it a Thalia deck is correct. Having plains on turn 1, then port on turn 2, then Karakas and her on turn 3 is such a good position. In fact, even just having Thalia block something huge later on, survive, until you draw something to go ahead (such as... blocking a goyf until you draw a MIRRAN CRUSADER!) is great. The legendary tag is a plus, not a minus, in a lot of situations.

[Barbed Blightning]

@razvan: cool fact: Thalia can kill a batterskull token if she has a jitte. Give it -2/-2 at the end of first strike combat step.

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

[TheKingslayer]

Tylert, let's start from the end, this will be interesting.




Wrong. I clearly said it was my opinion. Read again my first post if you want.
I didn't "state" anything at all.




If I cared about "the majority of people" 's opinion, I wouldn't write a negative comment on D&T in the D&T thread, don't you think?




As you want.

Let's start from your own comment:



Believe me: I know D&T very well. A friend of mine (who also writes here sometimes) owns it and we played countless games against each other, with me playing several kinds of deck: control, combo, aggro, anything.

You're perfectly right: the main peculiarity of this deck is the mana denial plan. It's something this deck accomplishes not only with lands, but also with the fundamental support of many of its creatures: Thalia of course, but also Revoker (on Shaman / Hierarch / any mana producing permanent), Mindcensor and Flickerwisp (bouncing lands or anything that produces mana, especially with Vial @3).
About 1/3 of the deck can accomplish denial, and you play the strongest denial cards.
Consequently, you have probably the strongest denial in the Legacy metagame.

And that's exactly why I call it a plague for the metagame of this format.
The fact of it being a "creature deck" is not that relevant in my opinion: it only says something about the general complexity, but nothing about the "fun factor".

You know, you are D&T players, you are very well positioned in the current metagame, you are clearly happy with it, 'cause you like the deck and you win with it. It's a wonderful world.

Now try to put yourself in the perspective of someone playing against D&T.
Your lands will probably be Wastelanded and/or Ported, you non-land mana resources will be Revoked, your removal will be useless because Mother is in play, when (and if) you'll have some land in play there will be Thalia negating any spell costing more than 2-3 and doubling the cost of any 1-CC spell, and when (and if) you'll finally will be able to cast something relevant, you'll be either dead or facing a Batterskull or some Jitte-equipped creature.

Very fun, uh?
Yeah, it's not fun at all.

Because this deck, in the end, uses different tools but accomplishes one fundamental goal: negates opponent's gameplan until it's too late to matter or recover.

And you know why I strongly consider that having this kind of deck as a dominant Tier 1 is a big problem for the metagame and health of this format?
Because none likes to lose this way.
When a new player approaches to Legacy, I don't think that playing against D&T will be the best thing for him to be appealed.

There are other "ugly" and "unfunny" ways to win or to lose, of course, therefore there are other decks/cards that potentially harm the health of Legacy.
Someone playing Emrakul on 1st or 2nd turn, for example. I admit without a problem that S&T decks are even worse than D&T under this perspective.

But I think no other decks are so frustrating to play against.

Yes, Canadian's denial plan is strong too, but not as strong as D&T, and the fact is: even if you've just lost against it without having the opportunity to develop your gameplan (which happens pretty often), probably you won't have the same distaste in your mouth. Because you just lost to a deck that, with the maximum efficiency possible, has used one of his lands and a couple of spells to negate your plan, while using in the meantime the other 1-2 lands to find some beaters and put them into play, and you find yourself a couple of turns later with no threats on the field, your removal countered, and an army of 3+ power creatures flying over your head or smashing through your defenses.
Surely it can be frustrating too, but you can't help but to admire a deck like this. Because it's spectacular, and next time you wanna play something like that.

And yes, combo too can leave you with a frustrating loss. I admit that losing to a 1st / 2nd turn Emrakul or Griselbrand it's not something to like, in fact Sneak & Show and Reanimator are, in my opinion, horrible decks as well.
But what about Storm? You can lose to it even faster, but wow, you lose in such a fashion that you'll want to storm yourself on next occasion.

Take Jund now. Another "garbage" deck if you ask me.
Linear, simple, strong: sometimes the deck will just win without you taking any effort or particular decision. You have discard, removal, lots of mana, card advantage, a reasonable clock: you can wreck or be wrecked by a deck like this.
But it lets you play your game.


My point in the end is: Death & Taxes is one of those deck that, while can amuse the players piloting it, will probably draw hatred, annoyance and grudge by almost anyone playing against it.




I hope I just showed you none of your accusations were true.

Are you seriously bemoaning an opponent's abilitiy to stifle your own game plan while deploying their own? That's what Legacy is all about.
You, my friend, should read this article. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ir-Unfair.html

[Barbed Blightning]

Are you seriously bemoaning an opponent's abilitiy to stifle your own game plan while deploying their own? That's what Legacy is all about.
You, my friend, should read this article. http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ir-Unfair.html

Thank You. Great article. I couldn't say it better, so I won't try to.

[bjholmes3]

That article rocks. The "fairness" nonsense has always been ridiculous.

[Zilla]

If you kids don't stop your arguing I will turn this thread around.

NOW SIT DOWN AND STOP HITTING YOUR SISTER

[DavidHernandez]

Wrong. He needs to read the entire thread. Including the section during GP Strasbourg where we asky why Nathan Holt sounds like an Innistrad necromancer transported to modern-day Austria.

@lordofthepit: I recommended that he read the whole thing, but he needs to start with the Primer and get the basics down-pat. That single post will keep him busy and give him all the tools he needs to **start**. Then he should study the whole thread like a textbook.

@Penguinizer: I highly recommend you drop the second Sword (which one depends on your meta) and add the Batterskull...the Batterskull is a staple of the deck and will save your life (points) at the most amazing times. Also, the Flagstones need to go away. For your sideboard, the Oblivion Rings are too numerous. Use a creature that exiles stuff instead. You will find that Thalia may block you from casting the Rings when you need them, and the Rings don't work with Aether Vial. For your two open slots, you might consider Wilt-Leaf Liege. This is a mainstay of most D&T sideboards.

Dave