Would you like to see True-Name Nemesis gone?

[Arsenal]

I anticipate D&T maintaining it's position if people start overloading on Sneak and Show to run through most of the fair TNN and non-TNN decks. If Sneak and Show wanes (unlikely), then D&T falling off wouldn't be a surprise.

[Star|Scream]

No shit, but now there's literally no reason NOT to run those decks exclusively from this point forward.

Wow man. You're just grasping at straws here. I'm done.

[dontbiteitholmes]

I'm getting next-level trolled via sarcastic Facebook comments.

Fixed that for you.

What are you talking about? I've said countless times in this thread that there are some decks that simply don't care about TNN existing. In fact, I imagine combo is probably happiest of all that people are maindecking legit anti-TNN tech; just more cards that combo doesn't have to think about game 1.

EDIT: lol danyul, thanks for the information. If that is 100% legit, then it'll be funny to see how quickly the "it's rediculous!" crowd changes their tune to "see! i told you there were TNN answers and that the format will adapt!"

I have yet to see anti-TNN maindeck cards in a top 8/16 deck. I mean bad players do bad things but I've played vs. someone before and gotten blown out because they maindecked Mindbreak Trap, that doesn't say anything about the power of combo though, just that some people are that stupid and once every 5 rounds it might pay off for them.

When you guys realize you are being trolled it would be funny to see you be like, "wow I can't believe my head is so far in the sand I ever for a second believed someone actually played that card in Legacy, maybe this is indicative of how skewed my general outlook on TNN is." But in reality we all know you guys are so far gone you will just continue to complain.

Pretty sure that all the TNN-supporters have been using "but there are answers to it!" argument this whole time. In fact, didn't I see Magnetic Mountain, Crackdown and Wing Shards being championed as possible TNN answers? The TNN-supporters can't have it both ways; terrible answers can be used to bolster the "TNN has answers!" stance, but can't be used to bolster the "WTF, look what ppl have to run to fight TNN" stance?

Also, that is 99.9% a typo. But I do find it funny that terrible answers can be only used to support the "TNN has answers!" crowd, but if they're used elsewhere, then it's "rediculous".

Okay so you quote like 3 terrible answers one person threw out in a thread and thus everyone saying TNN has legit answers is on that tier, strawman much? Also on the 0.00000000% chance anyone would ever really play Basilisk it still wouldn't be an answer to TNN in any way.

If it's legit, the reasoning behind it is fairly sound. Not dying to Deathblade's Abrupt Decay and Patriot's Lightning Bolt, while forcing through damage through the TNN wall seems decent-ish. However, probably not for 5 mana and when you only get 2 points across, but eat at least 3 on the backswing. Can you get more information from the Jund player as to how relevant/good/bad it was throughout his tourney?

God I am dying so hard right now. I get the feeling I will be quoting this thread someday in the future if it looks like someone might be about to take you seriously like you know what you are talking about. Again if you believe in Basilisk even a sliver you should probably stop theory crafting and go sharpen your scrutiny.

[Arsenal]

Wow man. You're just grasping at straws here. I'm done.

If you're looking to build a creature-based deck, the only two questions that matter are "how can I best support running TNN?" and "can I beat TNN without running TNN of my own?" Obviously, this doesn't apply to combo decks as they don't care about TNN at all.

EDIT: dontbiteitholmes, if someone said there was a creature not named TNN that didn't die to Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt and could swing through opposing TNNs, I'm sure that would pique your interest. Once you found out it cost 5 mana and only had 2 power, then your interest would turn into "unplayable". That's pretty much what I stated in my comment, don't know what's unclear about it.

[Dice_Box]

That's not totally true, I will change zero cards in my Goblin deck to deal with this guy.

[Arsenal]

That's not totally true, I will change zero cards in my Goblin deck to deal with this guy.

Goblins was put on life support when Batterskull was printed, died when Deathrite Shaman was printed and was buried when TNN was printed. Goblins isn't a factor in the meta anymore.

[dontbiteitholmes]

If you're looking to build a creature-based deck, the only two questions that matter are "how can I best support running TNN?" and "can I beat TNN without running TNN of my own?" Obviously, this doesn't apply to combo decks as they don't care about TNN at all.

EDIT: dontbiteitholmes, if someone said there was a creature not named TNN that didn't die to Abrupt Decay, Lightning Bolt and could swing through opposing TNNs, I'm sure that would pique your interest. Once you found out it cost 5 mana and only had 2 power, then your interest would turn into "unplayable". That's pretty much what I stated in my comment, don't know what's unclear about it.

The part where you asked for someone to ask the Jund player how good it was in the tourney, my sides went into orbit.

[Arsenal]

The part where you asked for someone to ask the Jund player how good it was in the tourney, my sides went into orbit.

So an obscure, unplayable card is played (now found out to be untrue, but I was going off of danyul's post that it was legit) in a deck that places well and asking about it's relevancy is something to laugh at?

[TsumiBand]

To be fair, Sidewinder Sliver would probably work better in Slivers - but then, you could just run more flyer Slivers and completely ignore TNN.

Why not run Slivers instead? Crystalline Sliver laughs at any spot removal (or Jitte counters trying to -1/-1, for the matter), flyers grant a decent clock, stop Delver and ignore TNN as a blocker while Harmonic Sliver shits all over SFM and equipment shenanigans.

Come on, don't be shitty. It's Flankingflanking.dec. Flanking is the Duran of Magic; it's always better in multiples.

[Dice_Box]

Batterskull is only an issue for those not smart enough to run maindeck Art hate, something the deck has easy access too, DRS made me run Tarfire main so that's that issue solved and TNN does what exactly to the best Anti Blue creature ever printed? You are going to block my Goblin hitting you for 15 with a blue card? I don't think that's likely.

[danyul]

In defense of gullibility, we have all seen crazy lists in Top 8s with subpar and strange choices. I have enough of an open mind to give these lists the benefit of the doubt. If based on all available evidence it appeared that a subpar card had performed well, then my first instinct would be curiosity rather than outright disdain.

Now, in this case, I was a whimsical fool who couldn't see the sarcasm and my Facebook acquaintances are huge trolls. But sometimes you gotta ask yourself...

[mini1337s]

In defense of gullibility, we have all seen crazy lists in Top 8s with subpar and strange choices. I have enough of an open mind to give these lists the benefit of the doubt. If based on all available evidence it appeared that a subpar card had performed well, then my first instinct would be curiosity rather than outright disdain.

Now, in this case, I was a whimsical fool who couldn't see the sarcasm and my Facebook acquaintances are huge trolls. But sometimes you gotta ask yourself...

Also, Cockatrice is vastly superior to Sylvan Basilisk XD

[mini1337s]

Also, Cockatrice is vastly superior to Sylvan Basilisk XD

EDIT: OH WAIT FLYING! AHHHH, there goes my Alpha tech.

[Arsenal]

Batterskull is only an issue for those not smart enough to run maindeck Art hate, something the deck has easy access too, DRS made me run Tarfire main so that's that issue solved and TNN does what exactly to the best Anti Blue creature ever printed? You are going to block my Goblin hitting you for 15 with a blue card? I don't think that's likely.

So that's why Goblins is beating all those UWx SFM-Batterskull decks, BGx Deathrite Shaman decks, and now all of those SFM-Batterskull + Deathrite Shaman + TNN decks. Silly me, Tuktuk Scrapper, Tarfire and Goblin Piledriver has solved the format. Goblins is just a hair above Zoo and Dragon Stompy in terms of relevance. Look at this month's data if you'd like.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

So an obscure, unplayable card is played (now found out to be untrue, but I was going off of danyul's post that it was legit) in a deck that places well and asking about it's relevancy is something to laugh at?

Of course. Welcome to the Source: your source for laughing at others because community and mature people...

Come on, don't be shitty. It's Flankingflanking.dec. Flanking is the Duran of Magic; it's always better in multiples.

Tsumi, I really like the deck. It's Tier 3 at best and it will always be, but there's hardly anything to spoil/invent when building a Boros deck. I like the KotHN. It's super annoying and the fact that one may just play it then never care of it is invaluable. Yep, you read it... invaluable.

My build for comparison:

Qty Name
// Lands
4 Arid Mesa
4 Plateau
1 Sacred Foundry
3 Clifftop Retreat
3 Plains
4 Mountain
//\\
// Creatures
1 Telim'Tor
4 Sidewinder Sliver
4 Knight of the Holy Nimbus
4 Knight of Valor
3 Zhalfirin Crusader
3 Cavalry Master
//\\
// Spells
2 Crackdown
2 Invasion Plans
2 Sunforger
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Path to Exile
4 Lightning Helix
4 Skullcrack
//\\
// Sideboard
3 Orim's Chant
3 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
3 Tormod's Crypt
3 Pithing Needle

For testing purposes I switched to fully powered version with Plateaus.

[Dice_Box]

So that's why Goblins is beating all those UWx SFM-Batterskull decks, BGx Deathrite Shaman decks, and now all of those SFM-Batterskull + Deathrite Shaman + TNN decks. Silly me, Tuktuk Scrapper, Tarfire and Goblin Piledriver has solved the format. Goblins is just a hair above Zoo and Dragon Stompy in terms of relevance. Look at this month's data if you'd like.

Goblins has had a good year, they are also a strong meta choice, like Fish. The meta shifts and it takes its place, it shifts back. Just like Fish, just like SnT, hell a bit like a fairly large amount of decks.

[Feaor]

In defense of gullibility, we have all seen crazy lists in Top 8s with subpar and strange choices. I have enough of an open mind to give these lists the benefit of the doubt. If based on all available evidence it appeared that a subpar card had performed well, then my first instinct would be curiosity rather than outright disdain.

Yea I was a little bit baffled why it was there until I realized that maybe it was a really wacky answer to TNN, I've seen some crazy stuff before in legacy so I wouldn't be that surprised, just curious as to how they arrived at that. People have won a SCG Open playing cards like Spectral Flight and Troll Ascetic, if you asked me if either of those cards were remotely legacy playable before that I would have said absolutely not.

I am curious to see if the people who don't think TNN should be banned would have liked TNN not to have been printed in the first place. Or does anyone actually thing TNN being printed is actually a good thing for Legacy and why? I feel like most players fall into the category of not really liking the card but are divided on whether or not it should be banned.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I don't like it, but I don't think it deserves ban. At least not now, several weeks after it seen the light of day.

There are pretty powerful cards in Legacy. I may think of at least dozen of cards that might be too powerful/annoying:
Brainstorm. It unmulligans.
Jace TMS. Too flexible, too powerful
Goyf. Evolutionary dead end.
Delver. Too powerful, shitty design
SFM. Might be too powerful, CA.
S&T. Enables broken things
LED. Black Lotus, maybe...
Griselbrand. Bargain with lifelink, very reasonable card.
fetches. Multicolored decks are a norm.

I'm not saying that these are broken and that Legacy would be better of them and that this and that that. And I ask the usual trigger-happies to overcome the desire to fire of all the "noob, diz iz legacy, go play modren" and "dude, buy goyfs instead of whinning" post. Again: I'm not saying these cards are ban-worthy and I don't cry about their power just because I don't own them and wanna spoil other people's fun. It's just that these cards are the most usually spoken about, when it comes to B&R discussions. Aslo, I own pretty much everything. Except for TNNs.
I'm not sure if TNN is on the level of say JTMS. Or LED. Or w/e. Is it stupid design? Yes, it is. So is Delver. Is it powerful creature? so is Goyf, and while Goyf is more fragile, it costs less. And unopposed Goyf kills faster... unless there's RiP in play, of course. So lets give that card a chance. I'm not seeing how it stifles diversity. The DTB is twelve or decks. I remember when it was ANT, RUG, Reanimator, Survival. Or something like that. So where's the trouble?

[matunos]

I have yet to see anti-TNN maindeck cards in a top 8/16 deck. I mean bad players do bad things but I've played vs. someone before and gotten blown out because they maindecked Mindbreak Trap, that doesn't say anything about the power of combo though, just that some people are that stupid and once every 5 rounds it might pay off for them.

A few of the top decks at SCG Vegas (both in the invi and the open) had tech like Golgari Charm (ex. Thea's Jund list) and Diabolic Edict (Uppal's Deathblade list) maindeck. These were surely motivated in part by TNN.

Several other decks had edicts in the SB where I'm pretty sure they didn't tend to before.

I would not say, however, that this alone shows TNN is that bad.

[Star|Scream]

It's so weird how everyone said it was going to dominate the format, but then when you show them a top 16 that is similar to what we had BEFORE it was printed, they say that it's warping the format. What they really mean to say is that it is changing the format much like Delver, Deathrite, Tarmogoyf, etc. But it's not dominating. So can we all just stop this?