1: He was good to have as long as I was on the offensive. He worked out as his threat seamed to be far greater than his bite. I feel this is because everyone I played against had to pick him up and read him, then they where left to invision the worst because they had not tested against him before. I would not say I addapted my plans around him though. When I could I attacked, if I got a card that was great, if not well, he was still handy. As for 3 being to many, he is in the standstill slot. I think 3 is the right number since he can be used to block, he can be removed like any other creature and he is a card you do want to see in your hand. 2 just feels like too few, 4 too many.
2: I agree with you that it is a bad choice to make, but I have no idea what I would cut for it and I liked the build I had. I could cut a Ree and a Curse for 2 of, but I feel that having the Curse can save me. I can see a reduction in the Reejerey count coming in my future though.
3: Yes it was. I found hands where I had Daze and no blue and I had Lords trapped in my hand twice. I ran my traditional mana base as I have not been playing fish that much since I built it, but yes, as I look back that was the wrong selection to make. I got lucky. Vial saved me at lest once but if I was to play again tonight, I would not go in with 8 grey lands. What I would cut would be a meta choice though so I will not get into a discussion as what is the better choice to cut out of Waste and Vault.
Thanks.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
Originally Posted by Spam
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Sygg is a cool card and nice in theory, but he slows you down a lot for a chance to draw 1-2 cards. That is why we use silvergill. A bigger body and a guaranteed card. It kills your tempo and is a pretty awful topdeck in a losing situation. If you're running it instead of standstill then it could be okay, but I wouldn't pull any lords or images for him...
In a meta that is turning to Blade decks running TNN, I think he is a good call. You are almost always going to have Island walk and you can use him to generate cards with minimal board presence in situations where Standstill would have only been a hinderence.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
I played Saturday in a 40+ player tourney with a couple changes from my GPDC list: Swapped Pithing Needle for Cursed Totem in the side (which I've mentioned) and also swapped the Gilded Drake in my side for a Back to Basics. Main and rest of the side were unchanged.
I went 0-4 drop losing to Team America, Shardless Bug, Dark Maverick and Esper Deathblade.
the Team America matchup is really close with I think Merfolk slightly favored in game 1 and a slight dog for games 2 and 3. I later played about a dozen sideboarded games vs Team America after the tourney and now have a better sideboard plan and better understanding of how to play the matchup. You never want to up your vial to 3 because being able to bluff an instant lord is important for playing around golgari charm. I also played lords on turn 3 rather than tap out for TNN and lose my board of x/1's to charm. Originally I'd been cutting counterspells for all my removal and the extra jitte, but after testing further I swapped a swan song for a misdirection and now side like this:
+2 Relic of Progenitus
+2 Submerge
+1 Misdirection
+1 Swan Song
+1 Spell Pierce
+1 Flusterstorm
+1 Back to Basics
-1 Umezawa's Jitte
-1 Curse Catcher
-3 Force of Will
-4 Daze
I lost to Shardless Bug because my opponent was playing some number of Darkslick Shores over Underground Sea due to budget reasons... when islandwalk WOULD have killed him :-/
Dark Maverick got with me Marit Lage token game 1 then with Batterskull game 3. I had been considering a single Carry Away in the side just to try out, but couldn't find one at the shop that morning. I played an Esper player round 4 where we both admittedly played extremely sloppy since we were out of the running for prizes.
For the Sunday tournament (28 players) I had my Misdirection in the side and found a copy of Carry Away to try out (taking the place of the Jitte in the sideboard). I won round 1 vs Dredge, having tested this matchup a lot. Round 2 I beat RUG Delver which has seemed like a very favorable match for us over the last month. Round 3 I beat Team America and the prior days testing was crucial here. I was able to dodge blow-out charms with instant lords and felt like I completely understood this matchup. I double drew the last two rounds to make top 8. In the quarterfinals I beat a different Team America player - again, I feel like understanding this matchup more than the opponent is crucial to our success in sideboarded games. Semi's I beat Miracles - Aether Vial being the most important card in this matchup. In the finals I played my round-4 opponent from Saturday. This match was insane!
I kept a decent hand that lacked any interaction (no wastelands or counterspells) and just played creatures while he went turn-1 Deathrite, turn-2 SFM getting batterskull. I was able to land a TNN to hold of the germ. Then a Phantasmal Image allowed me to start attacking. Another TNN was enough to take game 1.
Game 2 I kept a creature-light hand that did have interaction AND my 1-of Cursed Totem. He started with DRS and SFM again and Totem came down and never left play. Unfortunately I couldn't draw any creatures (I saw 2 cursecatchers and a merrow reejerey all game) and a second SFM found him a Sword of Fire and Ice. I was able to remove some of his "squires" but eventually lost to the sword equipped to his 1/2 do-nothings.
Game 3 on the play and mulled to 6 keeping a hand with 1 island, 1 silvergill, 1 carry away, 1 TNN and 2 lords. I probably mulligan again if the silvergill isn't there. I miss my second land while his first play is SFM for Batterskull. He misses his third land though and main phases the batterskull into play so he doesn't have to discard. I hit a second island and play Carry Away on the Batterskull. I then rip land after land and play out my creatures. I even equip Batterskull to TNN! I have LoA, Merrow Reejerey, 2x Cursecatcher, Silvergill Adept and Batterskull-equipped TNN in play. He has VClique, DRS and SFM. I swing with the whole team, he swords my LoA and blocks everything but the TNN and a Cursecatcher and casts Zealous Persecution. He goes to 2, me to 29, but wipes my whole team other than TNN. On his turn he plays Liliana and edicts. From there a second SFM finds Sword of Fire and Ice and I lose to the that equipped to VClique. :(
If I had just attacked with TNN twice it would have been an easy win. I was happy that he and I were both able to avenge are poor performances from Saturday though. and reactions to Cursed Totem and Carry Away were worth it, even though I wound up losing both games.
Going forward I'm leaning toward cutting the maindeck Jitte as it's at it's best vs decks with x/1's and I didn't see any D&T either day (at all, not just my games). I think D&T is on the decline thanks to everyone being prepared for TNN. The slot could go to an extra Spell Pierce, a maindeck Dismember or maybe a Standstill (and cut the 21st land for a second Standstill). Still undecided on this change though. The Totem and Carry Away felt really good. There were a number of times where drawing the Back to Basics would have been huge, but I never saw it either day. The Misdirection was REALLY good every time I drew it - either imitating FoW or redirecting StP/Abrupt Decay to my opponent's creatures.
For reference, here's my list and updated side:
13 Island
4 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
4 Aether Vial
4 Cursecatcher
1 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
1 Umezawa's Jitte
2 Merrow Reejerey
4 True-Name Nemesis
4 Force of Will
Sideboard:
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Cursed Totem
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
1 Back to Basics
1 Carry Away
2 Dismember
1 Kira, Great Glass-Spinner
2 Submerge
Last edited by f7eleven; 12-18-2013 at 03:41 PM.
@Dicebox,
Thank you so much for your in-depth analysis! It was very helpfulhere are my thoughts:
- Add PI. It lessens the counters you need because against 2 of the biggest combo match-ups, it works wonders (Reanimator and Show & Tell). Against S&T it is extremely trolly and usually wins the game then and there. Against Reanimator we have to do more work, but that is OK.
- I would cut a Mutavault for a 13th island. I have found 13 islands to be perfect.
- Your experience with Sygg was really interesting to read. I don't think he slows us down, because he will usually replace what would've been Reejery or a utility spell like a counter, dismember or Jitte (and as you know, Jitte is really slow in this deck!). Reejery's 3cc hurts because Wasteland is amazing. I feel that we will get to play Sygg more than Reejery. He can also be used as part of a recovery plan in conjunction with TNN or a PI copying an opponents creature (e.g. even if we had a vial at 2, we could copy a flipped delver, attack and draw a card to help us rebuild against mass-removal). I will be testing him as a 3-of.
@ f7eleven thank you very much for your in-depth analysis too! Very helpful, here are my thoughts:
I will keep in mind the charm. I have lost to Pyroclasm before because I got too greedy, copying a Silvergill instead of a Lord. Lesson learned!
I think the biggest issue with your sideboard is lack of answers to equipment. Annoying artifacts are CRAWLING in my meta (much more-so than combo) so I've decided to run steel sabotage. In my meta, it hits the following:
All blade decks
Death & Taxes
Goblins and other vial decks like the mirror
Affinity (lol this often gets 1st or 2nd because no one prepares)
Red Stompy
An even Miracles (don't think I'd play it though?)
That is at least 50% of the decks in the field, lol, so I'm running 4. If you don't have many slots to dedicate to it, then I'd choose carry away. Much more narrow, but with only 2 or so slots then Carry Away becomes much more valuable than Steel Sabotage.
Why not try this:
Land (I've cut 1 land, a Mutavault)
13 Island
3 Mutavault
4 Wasteland
Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
4 Phantasmal Image (4 of these means you need less counters)
4 Silvergill Adept
4 True-Name Nemesis
1 Merrow Reejerey (I cut one because we upped PI)
1 Kira, the Great Glass Spinner
Spells/Artifacts
4 Aether Vial
4 Force of Will
3 Daze
2 Spell Pierce
1 Dismember
Sideboard:
2 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
1 Swan Song
1 Flusterstorm
3 Carry Away
2 Dismember
1 Submerge
1 Cursed Totem
1 Jitte
I added Jitte to the sideboard. I upped your Dismember count because it hits more than Submerge, even though Submerge is amazing against green. I don't know if that was a meta choice for you. I've kept 3 counters in, and 3 graveyard hate in as you did, though put in 2 cages to add to your hate against elves. I got rid of back to basics because while that is amazing, I think you need more consistency in drawing Carry Away. It is your only hate against equipment and remember, we have very few ways to dig. Having 1-of's isn't very good in Merfolk. We don't run brainstorm because we have redundancy. Against a strategy, it is good to have 2+ pieces of hate minimum IMHO, otherwise it is almost worthless running it. You might find 3 overkill, in which case that is a flexi spot.
How exactly does Phantasmal Image win you the game against S&T right then and there? If you put it into play off of a Show and Tell, you can't copy the creature your opponent puts into play.
From Gatherer: 9/22/2011 - "If Phantasmal Image somehow enters the battlefield at the same time as another creature, Phantasmal Image can't become a copy of that creature. You may only choose a creature that's already on the battlefield."
Don't get me wrong, I think Image is good against S&T, as you can use an Ęther Vial on 2 counters to drop it after they've S&T'd a fatty into play. It's just not the super reliable trump that some people seem to think it is.
You are right! Thank you for pointing this out. I knew that the first player picked first, but I mistakenly thought that this meant they put their creature into play first too. That is not the case:
> The current player chooses first, then each other player chooses in turn order. A player does not have to reveal the chosen card, so long as it is clear *which* card was chosen. After all choices are made, the cards are put onto the battlefield simultaneously.
PI is only a trump then if we meet the following criteria:
1. We have a vial on 2 AND PI, which is very situational to hope for.
2. We have a PI in play and 6 other permanents in play that we can sac to survive hit 1, so that we can hit back in our next turn.
Yes, that is true, but if you cast reejery instead of sygg you get an instant impact vs a potential +1 card. I like sygg a lot, don't get me wrong. However, his power level is too low. If he was a 2/1 then I'd LOVE to use him in the deck. However, reejery speeds up your win by a considerable amount. Against most decks you want to race, but sygg doesn't let you do that. Granted he is better than standstill in this meta, but many people just cut standstill altogether anyway...
Personally, as a Goblin player for 9 years, I have come to lean on card advantage as a way to win. I think that adding in a card draw engine is more boon than bust to this deck. He may only have one Power, but his power is not why he is there. If you want blunt power run Thassa. Trading out Standstill for Sygg is in my mind the correct play right now. If you had already cut Standstill then it is up to you to decide what to cut.
With the rise of TNN, the changing of the meta to lean on Equipment and a Blue carrier of that equipment, I think this deck is about to see a revive. Not only can you play TNN, but you can do it while making the rest of your Army totally unblockable. If we are going to move into the "Anti True-Name" role then Sygg really is a boon to have.
I would even look into maybe running a single Cold-Eyed Selkie if I feel up to testing it. Everything about the card screams "Win more" but I am draw to it anyway.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
I considered this too. I suspect it is a bit too greedy. Awesome, but greedy at 3 mana, but would love if you tested him though.
Unfortunately a 2/1 for 2 with a constant card draw in Merfolk is just living the dream a bit too muchI get your point though. My thoughts with this were to use it to push the early game faster, to get more cards in hand. It doesn't impact the board but it does get you closer to more threats. I would not run this without a minimum of 12 lords (or 8 lords + PI). It is better to think of it as the standstill slot, with TNN taking Reejery's place.
Windmill - I don't want 3 and 4 ofs in my side. I like being able to attack various strategies from different angles with cards that are relevant for several matchups. 2 cages is too many when it's good against 3 decks (elves, dredge, reanimator) that make up maybe 10-12% of the metagame. Meanwhile relic is good against two of those three as well as ANT and every deck with Tarmogoyf (RUG, Jund, TA).
Have you played in any decent sized (5 rounds w/ top 8) tournaments with Merfolk? or with any legacy deck?
Though there is a brief discussion a few pages back, I was surprised that there wasn't more in this thread about Gregory Hatch's 2nd place Merfolk list from SCG Invitational: Las Vegas. Here's the decklist:
CREATURES
3 Cosi's Trickster
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Master of the Pearl Trident
3 Merrow Reejery
3 Phantasmal Image
4 Silvergill Adept
4 True-Name Nemesis
SPELLS
3 Ęther Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
LAND
4 Cavern of Souls
12 Island
4 Mutavault
SIDEBOARD
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Pithing Needle
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Spell Pierce
3 Submerge
4 Swan Song
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Vision Charm
There are several things that stand out to me here:
First, no Wastelands. Instead there is a full set of Cavern of Souls, which allows the trimming of an Ęther Vial. While Merfolk is typically regarded as the deck with the "worst mono-color mana base in Legacy," this setup avoids that by running 4 fewer colorless lands (at least with respect to casting creatures). In the end, I have a hard time knowing if giving up the potential tempo plays involving Wasteland is a a reasonable trade. I suppose if you're expecting a meta that is particularly indifferent to Wasteland, then this approach seems worthwhile.
Second, Cosi's Trickster is in this deck. As far as 1cmc fish are concerned, Trickster does offer the potentially greatest amount of power. It seems particularly good in a field of Green Sun's Zenith decks (Zenith causes 2 shuffles per casting, so it grows the Trickster very quickly). I wonder though if Tidal Warrior would possibly be better; probably not, but the ability to color screw certain decks (especially if you're not running Wasteland) and ensure that your islandwalk is live offers some appeal.
Third, I'm confused by the Vision Charm in the sideboard. I wonder if it was listed incorrectly and was actually a Sapphire Charm, which would be a tool against Batterskull (phase out the Germ, the equipment goes with it, the token ceases to exist, the equipment never phases back in).
Anyway, I wonder if there was a lot of specific thought behind these choices, or if they were budget concessions. I'm not particularly familiar with Mr. Hatch as a player, though a quick Google search shows that he has played various builds of Merfolk in SCG events in the past.
I expect we will see an article from Mr. Hatch since second place at invitationals is good enough.
Looking forward to that.
In a scale from 1 to 10 how bad is playing spreading seas in the SB.
4 maybe? I did consider a couple copies in the side for GPDC when the format had much more D&T. But D&T is showing up less and less. And vs Jund or Maverick I'd rather have as many Submerges as you can fit in your side. Does anything else block and not play islands?
I also wanted to see more coments on that Invitational list. I tried myself but got tired because it gets flooded very often. I would definately cut 1 Cavern, 4 are way to many IMO.
If I were running that list I would like to run a couple Back to Basics in the SB (Against Grove mainly and decks carrying 0 basics: UWR and BUG), but's it's not posible because of the Caverns.
I would suggest -1 Cavern +1 Vial. Sometimes you draw 2 vials and it's a shame, other's you don't draw any and you wish you had one (not only because of the counters), and other's you get one and gets Abrupted...
I can think of Goblins, there is always one in little local shops, however it's not a DTB (For now, I expect them to make a resurgence after TNN)
Spreading Sea's has always feel underwhelming to me. Sometimes you don't have lord, other it gets killed when going to attack, other times you need the mana, or you'd prefer them to be another SB card, etc... Seems awesome on paper, but then doesn't fulfill the expectations.
Again thanks for you report, it was a good read. :) I wonder if Carry Away wasn't a bit narrow? Gaining control is only useful against Jitte, right? However I can see it "destroys" the equipment forever (not like Echoing tructh, Steel Savotage...), and those efects are apreciated in blue.
One question, would you side out counters against Maverick? Normally we have a ton of hate to bring, but they have so many cards that are a answer me or die (SFM, Reliquary, GSZ, even Ooze or Mom...). I'm unsure about what's the strategy for games 2 and 3. I usually side out Dazes and 2-3 Cursecatchers if on the draw, Cursecatchers and 2-3 fow if on the play.
I like your Maverick sideboard plan. I hate Cursecatcher in that matchup and have also been siding them out. I probably cut a couple Daze on the play too since I'm siding out CC, Wasteland isn't very good in the matchup either and Daze doesn't stay relevant very long. If they're Dark Maverick, Wasteland can be good, but you need to take out the stage or depths before they have the other (and cannot get the other with Knight in response).
I know Carry Away is EXTREMELY narrow. But SFM decks are abundant and the effect is pretty damn powerful... It's not like they're NOT going to put equipment into play. I like it vs all of the equipment being played... SoFaI, Jitte, Batterskull, Manriki Gusari.
Also, for me it replaced the Jitte in my side which the only drawback is one less Jitte vs Elves... but really I don't plan on EVER beating elves with merfolk. The extra Jitte was only coming in vs other decks with equipment - though I guess I'm forgetting Goblins again. I haven't seen it lately, and haven't tested the matchup since TNN either.
TNN does not make the goblin matchup any easier. They can still Matron for Piledeiver and slam you with it. I played against the deck in a few burn rounds on Tuesday night and if I did not have Dismember main and know what to wait to kill I would have walked away from the game with my teeth kicked in.
Edit:
I am doing some goldfishing now. I like Sygg in the deck, I do not like even a one of Cold-Eyed. I am sure I can leave you all to more or less know that was going to happen before I even started. I have also cut two of the Ree for two PI. Going to give it a go but I did like my 12 lords. Anyway if anyone has played games against the newer blade decks can they let us know how it went. I really think right now this deck is the best positioned to face them.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
I think it is too. I am surprised that Merfolk hasn't been doing better in this meta. It makes me wonder if it is just because a stable, core build has not been found yet. Different people are doing wildly different things.
I think most of the build is known. While people are doing different things, most of the decks all run the same core. That being:
4 Curse
4 Silvergill
8 Lords
2 PI
2 Reejerey
3/4 TNN (New, may not stay)
4 Force
4 Daze
4 Vial
7/8 "Grey" lands
12/13 Islands
That is what I see as the core. 35ish cards plus lands. Really its the rest that is filled out differently from person to person.
Edit: That core is also not set in stone. I myself am testing less Daze in place of other more effective counters.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
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