How about meddling mage? XD I know sometimes you may not be able to cast it because of its WU mana requirement but thats also true for tezzeret.Yeah i know he kills people and stuff but meddling mage should do fine against other matchups as well, especially combo. I think its better to play him and take the risk of mana problems than to get countered by a white leyline.Originally Posted by Shawon
I didnt know cloudpost was a real deck you have to worry about when you create your SB. Do they play it often in your area?
The difference between Tezz and Meddling Mage/Tidehollow Sculler is that you can wait to cast Tezz since it's four mana anyways. If you need to cast MM/TS on turn 2 and you can't, that's a bummer.
Cloudpost is probably the most expensive deck in Legacy, yet THREE PEOPLE IN CT play the goddamned deck, including the infamous Rock Lee who wrote the Turbo Eldrazi thread in The Source. The same GPT I beat my only loss in the Swiss (Sneak-Show) in the top 8, I lost to Rock Lee in the semifinals. He won via Show&Tell->Primeval Titan. Game 2, I get a turn 1 Chalice @1, and he STILL WINS off of Show and Tell -> Titan. There are two tournaments in a row next month and I'm pretty sure either Rock Lee or Tim Harding will be there with Post decks, so yeah I definitely need to test SB options against what's probably my worst control match, even more so than Miracles!
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
Deathmark? It also hits DRS, most of D&T, so it's probably a meta call, but if you need it, it's cheap.
I like your thinking, however Dispatch is probably better than Deathmark, since it can also hit 2 of the 3 legendary Eldrazi, excluding Emrakul ofc. Or if you hate Emrakul that much, you can consider running Shriekmaw, and look at that, it has fear!!!
I have considered running Dispatch in the SB. It's pretty applicable against Reanimator as well, aside from your fair creature matchups. But like I said, I want to run cards that are live against both Post and combo, and discard is the only strategy that seems feasible.
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
How about blood moon against post?
It's been tried and done, by me.
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
Even if you're not capable of dropping a UW or BW creature consistently on T2, I still think you should use something like 4 Cabal Therapy and 4 Flusterstorm before 8 discard effects because you're less reliant on finding one specific land for all of your disruption and you're only half way in with discard vs Leyline.
There's also some old school favorites to take a look at, like Chains of Mephistophelese or maybe Eye of Chaos.
Flusterstorm can't deal with Sneak Attack, and since we have no other instants to complement Flusterstorm, an opponent can simply wait to cast S&T with two mana floating.
I think the fear I'm noticing about Leyline of Sanctity is overblown. It's a fringe playable SB card, and mulliganing into it just to stop my discard is a strategy I'm fine with going up against, because I still have a fast clock. I think the idea of using a variety of cards that have individual uses against specific combo pieces, say Phyrexian Revoker or Flusterstorm, is nice in theory, but their use depends on the opponent taking a line of play that you are hoping they take. I don't want to care about what specific combo piece my opponent has, so I'd rather use a variety of cards that all contribute to one singular strategy, rather than a variety of cards with singular purposes, and I think I'm pretty comfortable with the idea that the only way my opponent can counteract my strategy is adding more resiliency in the form of more cantrips/Top or mulliganing into an uncastable enchantment.
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
If Sneak and Show mulligans into a Leyline against Affinity, then they're probably already losing. If I was that player, I wouldn't even bring it in. Against something like Jund, that's very reasonable, but not really against Affinity. It's just not worth it against our deck. I remember one time I stripped four cards from a Sneak and Show player (called Show and Tell, got two of them, flashed Therapy back to get two Brainstorms), but that's the ideal scenario, it isn't going to happen like that very often. I think them siding in Leyline against us would just be watering the deck down.
I'm not sure how I feel about any counter magic in the side, but Flusterstorm wouldn't be the right one, for the reasons Shawon pointed out. I saw some lists trying out Spell Pierce, but I'd rather play something that forces the opponents to respond to it. Storm or Elves can't win with Canonist on board. Dredge just stops until they respond to RiP, and RiP seriously hinders threats like Goyf, Deathrite, and Knight. Even Therapy can be crippling if played correctly and not responded to. Also factor in that cards like Flusterstorm or Spell Pierce are really easy to play around if you're expecting them. Just like our deck can often ignore Daze, a Sneak and Show player has access to the mana to wait.
I tried playing Dispatch for a little bit, because it seemed awesome in Affinity, but I found that I wanted to jam more threats instead. And RiP is simply much deadlier against decks like Reanimator, while also having applications for several different decks. Also, RiP deals with multiple threats simultaneously, while Dispatch can only ever get one.
I really think you're ignorant of how many combo decks play Leyline of Sanctity and how little they have to try to stop your discard with Leyline of Sanctity in addition to all of the other Force of Will, Daze, Misdirection, Spell Pierce etc. they play. Go look at other discussions regarding diversifying disruption vs Leyline of Sanctity, especially in the TES thread, and you'll see how much other players take it seriously. Because it sounds like you're making judgements based on your own particular metagame and not something more diverse like online or a Starcity.
If you don't want to play Flusterstorm then play Spell Pierce, but I think having an uncounterable answer to Show&Tell is much better than having a counterable answer to either Show&Tell or Sneak Attack because you can race the latter. The thing about Cabal Therapy and Flusterstorm is that they can't just counter either of them with a Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Spell Pierce etc. and go off. Affinity isn't exactly the best aggro-control deck post-board, so you need cards that are even more powerful than the Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce of RUG to win the counter war and that's pretty much Flusterstorm's bill.
And God in heaven I hope the opponent starts to wait two additional turns in order to go off with Show&Tell, because there's no better deck in the format to go all in with Ravager/Disciple against.
I know how the card works, and how it plays against Jund and Storm, but none of that is relevant to how it affects Affinity. Leyline of Sanctity doesn't have the same impact on the matchup as it does against Jund or Storm, because both of those decks are significantly hampered by a white Leyline whereas the only cards I run that would be rendered useless would be 6 discard spells (Sculler is still a 2/2 bear, and it only targets the opponent). My opponent isn't always going to find Leyline, and even if they do, I can still win with a fast clock, which most disruptive decks relying on discard can't do. I have yet to see how my SB plan works against Leyline post-board, but as I said, my testing is ongoing and I'm not going to abandon my strategy before I even test against Leyline, especially when I've already explained to you why I think I'm okay even if I do face it, so I don't see the point of any further discussion on this unless you yourself have tried a heavy discard SB plan in Affinity against Leyline of Sanctity in your testing.
I have tried Spell Pierce, and it has failed in my testing against Sneak-Show because holding back a counterspell and making sure you're not tapped out buys them too much time. That's how I feel about Flusterstorm, actually, more so than the fact that it can't counter Sneak Attack. Spell Pierce is oddly enough better against Miracles than any combo deck.If you don't want to play Flusterstorm then play Spell Pierce, but I think having an uncounterable answer to Show&Tell is much better than having a counterable answer to either Show&Tell or Sneak Attack because you can race the latter. The thing about Cabal Therapy and Flusterstorm is that they can't just counter either of them with a Force of Will, Pact of Negation, Spell Pierce etc. and go off. Affinity isn't exactly the best aggro-control deck post-board, so you need cards that are even more powerful than the Force of Will, Daze and Spell Pierce of RUG to win the counter war and that's pretty much Flusterstorm's bill.
And God in heaven I hope the opponent starts to wait two additional turns in order to go off with Show&Tell, because there's no better deck in the format to go all in with Ravager/Disciple against.
A S-S deck doesn't need to wait two additional turns to pay for two extra mana floating, I don't know where I said that. They can play a Lotus Petal the turn before they go off and use their next land drop to have access to two leftover mana after casting Show and Tell. Or just cast Sneak Attack if you're playing Flusterstorm.
Last edited by Shawon; 12-24-2013 at 09:00 AM.
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
Swan Song might be the answer to the recently discussed problems. It counters every sneak show threat. Its good against nearly every other combo deck. Together with Canonist you can make sure your swan song doesnt get countered. The only weakness i see is against discard spells, for example the cabal therapy most storm lists run. But even if you run the discard package yourself the enemy can still respond to your dicard spell with a brainstorm to hide his combo piece from you and then go off next turn. You might even play a discard spell on your oppenent and he draws his missing combo piece with his regular draw. They way i see it both ways - dicard package on one hand, counters or mm on the other can be outplayed by the combo player without bigger effort. But with swan song you can potentially always hit your target, even when the combo deck topdecks something.
Ofcourse I've tried it, it's awful, your opponent SBs out his Dazes for his Leylines of Sanctity and you abruptly lose the game if he manages to draw it in his openning hand. What you don't seem to get is that Show&Tell doesn't always have an answer to everything or time to wait to play around your counter spells vs a clock, the deck is notriously inconsistent and running multiple angles of attack instead of a single angle makes certain he can't just play Defense Grid, Leyline of Sanctity or Chain of Vapor but that he has to either play ALL of them or just counter spells which your spells are designed to beat - making his deck even more inconsistent. If you give your opponent your deck list and he only sees discard spells in your SB, you have given him the easiest choice possible. If he sees Flusterstorm, Cabal Therapy and hate bear there's no obvious choice possible. Boo hoo you have to hold back mana, you shouldn't have a card with casting cost above 3 in your deck post-board anyway and holding back mana lets you bluff a counter spell where not playing any counter spells in your 75 doesn't let you bluff anything.
I mean feel free to throw the match up to your heart's content despite knowing the opponent is playing the single most cost efficient answer vs your linear disruption strategy, at least Jund and Storm can excuse themselves for not having any other choice ... only every other deck in the format chooses to differentiate its disruption away from discard post-board vs Show&Tell ... clearly affinity is the exception /facepalm. But oh wait, some versions even play Sensei's Divining Top too ...
Edit: Swang Song is a decent try, I still have concerns about not being able to win the counter war tho'. I suppose each of the 1cc counter spells are going to come up short some where.
You say you've "tried" a heavy discard plan (with Affinity? or still talking about TES?) against Leyline, so if you have that much extensive experience, how come you neglected to mention anything on your deck's capability to go into an aggro plan if they drop Leyline? Have you ever beaten Sneak-Show when they did have Leyline when you tried the discard plan? How did Leyline affect the usefulness of Disciple? Just saying your experience was "awful" doesn't provide any insight at all.
For the record, I have tried both Cabal Therapy and Spell Pierce in the past, even at once, and I wasn't satisfied with that plan. It may have do to with the fact that I only ran a total of 6 cards against S&S - I believe in bringing in more - but I still don't think the diversification matters as much as you think it does, because as long as you're running a card that has conditional use, you will still run into those very conditions that make the card bad in the first place, say if you only draw Flusterstorm and they have drop a turn 3 Sneak Attack. The only conditional card that renders my all-in discard plan useless is Leyline of Sanctity. Force of Will does counter my discard, but I don't care about Spell Pierce, Daze or even Misdirection if I'm using either Therapy or Sculler. I've already explained why I'm okay if I run into Leyline. You still use Therapy, so I know you're aware of how useful the proactive approach of using discard to gain information and disrupt the opponent is, therefore I think you can understand why I want to invest in more of that approach because being proactive is more cohesive to the core strategy of Affinity. I don't think I've ever referenced the sitcom "Parks & Recreation" before, but I will quote the manly Ron Swanson: "Don't half-ass two jobs; whole-ass one."
It's funny that you mention Top, because I notice its inclusion in many Sneak-Show lists that actually run 0 Leyline. Honestly, I'd rather go up against S&S with Leyline any day of the deck than Sensei's Divining Top.
Last edited by Shawon; 12-25-2013 at 12:08 PM. Reason: I said some condescending stuff, for which there was no need. Happy Holidays :)
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
Quick sideboarding question... looking at the main deck of the top 8 deck at SCG recently, what do you board out to bring Chalice in?
I love the idea of using Ancient Tomb to power out a turn 1 Chalice @ 1, but I don't know if I should side out a combination of Signal Pest or Springleaf Drum (the only 1 CCs I saw in the list) or some other cards?
Signal Pest is usually cut for Chalice. Drums can help you cast Chalice, so they stay in. Besides, cutting mana for SB cards is generally a bad idea.
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
Affinity doesn't race Sneak&Show provided the opponent has judicious cards like Force of Will and/or Daze depending on whether or not he's playing first or second, if you know to counter the Phyrexian Ravager or Stoneforge Mystic/Cranial Plating then it's difficult for Affinity to establish a clock. I haven't been able to beat the match up at all without disruption added into the mix and at the moment Cabal Therapy/Swan Song seem to be the best, diverse package available.
Edit: Disciple of the Vault is fine, if I don't give the opponent a reason to SB in Leyline of Sanctity i.e I don't play 8+ discard effects, or any discard effects for that matter, then resolving Disciple of the Vault and Phyrexian Ravager is probably the most consistent way to race the opponent. It happens here or there depending on how they distribute their disruption, if they play Spell Pierce over Daze for example then Disciple of the Vault is pretty savage.
I'm not sure what Sneak&Show lists you're playing against, but Leyline of Sanctity and Sensei's Divining Top aren't mutually exclusive and if there's a counter that targets all of Sneak&Shows targets and doesn't let them shut down your entire disruption strategy with a single card I don't know why you wouldn't play it. "Pro-active" is just loose jargon, the distribution of your mana sources relative to the redundancy of the mana symbols of your disruption is not. You're all in on black mana, that's really bad for aggressive mulliganing.
I could be entirely convinced tho' that the best approach is to just Thorn/Thalia and Chalice and pray it holds.
As a side note I really think I'm done playing with Etched Champion over Master of Etherium, Etched Champion is pretty mediocre without Phyrexian Ravager and unlike Disciple of the Vault you're paying too much for just a bear as opposed to a 1/1 dork that can still play the Drums and draws counters/removal like crazy. Too many times I've just had my opponent Wasteland/Abrupt Decay one of my lands and Lightning Bolted it anyway and it's always behind in the damage race. I'm also kind of torn on Inkmoth vs Blinkmoth, damage is better than poison vs any aggro-control deck from what I've witnessed but I want to keep testing it to be sure.
The deck can race Sneak-Show infrequently, but there's definitely some likelihood attached so I'm surprised that you say the deck can't race Sneak-Show and moreover you bring up Force of Will as the reason why, as if the reason why the deck primarily loses the matchup has to do with its inability to close out games when the S&S somehow hasn't gone off already and not with the effectiveness of said strategies to stop Sneak-Show from going off. I think it's a strawman point to argue over anyways, because we were discussing SB options, but if you find you're completely unable (maybe you weren't being literal?) to race Sneak-Show, then it could have to do with the way you're taking out cards in the matchup. What is your card-for-card SB configuration against Sneak-Show?
While I have tested Therapy + Pierce against Sneak-Show and wasn't impressed, I guess I can't dismiss Swan Song outright since it is a hard counter unlike Pierce. I think the drawback is a little significant, but considering your side note regarding your change to Master of Etherium, Swan Song's drawback may probably be less significant now.
You are missing Wasteland in that mix to make Thalia any useful against Sneak-Show, so no, Thalia + Chalice is probably not a good approach.I could be entirely convinced tho' that the best approach is to just Thorn/Thalia and Chalice and pray it holds.
Something must be wrong if you find you lose Metalcraft with Etched Champion, or at least with enough frequency to bring this up as a reason to cut it. I mean, if you are trying to fit in 4 SFM, 4 Disciple, +3 Tezz, and +4 manlands into the same deck, then perhaps it might have to do with the artifacts you are cutting to fit in all of those cards.As a side note I really think I'm done playing with Etched Champion over Master of Etherium, Etched Champion is pretty mediocre without Phyrexian Ravager and unlike Disciple of the Vault you're paying too much for just a bear as opposed to a 1/1 dork that can still play the Drums and draws counters/removal like crazy. Too many times I've just had my opponent Wasteland/Abrupt Decay one of my lands and Lightning Bolted it anyway and it's always behind in the damage race. I'm also kind of torn on Inkmoth vs Blinkmoth, damage is better than poison vs any aggro-control deck from what I've witnessed but I want to keep testing it to be sure.
I have in the past cut Etched Champions for Masters before, so I can't really judge your decision to make that change although your reasons for doing so are lunacy. However, I'm skeptical with how useful Master of Etherium is now, considering that Snapcaster Mage is back in the metagame and True-Name Nemesis exists now.
Inkmoth is always better than Blinkmoth, because if you are going for an Infect kill, you are pretty much guaranteed two attack steps to Infect kill, no matter how high the opponent's life total is. The only advantage of using Blinkmoth over Inkmoth is if your opponent is close to lethal and you only have one attack step left to close the deal and you have no other nonland creatures to attack for the win, and those scenarios are very one in a few. Inkmoth allows you to win games that you wouldn't otherwise have been capable of winning because their life total was not low enough for you to win before they would have. It's possible to run both, but probably with less copies of Blinkmoth.
Last edited by Shawon; 01-03-2014 at 03:35 PM.
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
I think if you lose Metalcraft, it doesn't really matter what card you have over Etched Champion--be it Master, Disciple, or what have you--you're losing the game no matter what. If we don't have Metalcraft, it means that we don't have a board, which means that we can't win.
I've played Master over Champion in the past, but especially since TNN changed the meta, Champion is just too valuable. I can't count the number of times I've lost a Master before ever using it because the opponent had the hard removal. Which should not happen to Champion. I will add that I still like Master a lot, because if he isn't responded to, he will probably win you the game. Also, if you lose Metalcraft and you're thinking of Master over Champion, Master *also dies to that same lightning bolt. Because that means he's a 2/2.
Right now I'm running 4 Therapy and 3 Sculler side. Therapy, I think, has great synergy with the deck, and Sculler is another artifact bear to help out with the deck, too. Although, I do like the idea of varying up the attack pattern. Final Fortune has a point in that it is harder to beat, with the additional advantage of possibly doubling up cards for other match-ups, as well. If you can use a card commonly brought in against Sneak and Show against some other type of deck, its SB value increases. I'm not currently running Revoker, but I always toy with the idea of going back to him, because he's just so versatile. I'm not sure how I feel about Swan Song, but I'd be willing to test it and/or hear/see how it plays out before judging it.
I don't know about any of you guys, but despite the holidays, I haven't stopped tweaking and updating Affinity. Since last month, I've been preparing for two big tournaments that are going to held this weekend in Connecticut, and as you may already know from my previous posts, I've been focusing my testing and tweaking on improving my combo matchups as well as my matchup against Cloudpost.
After playing a Legacy weekly on Tuesday, and gaining some more insight on the Cloudpost matchup, I believe this list is what I'm going to settle on this weekend:
4 [MR] Vault of Whispers
4 [MR] Seat of the Synod
4 [MR] Ancient Den
2 [MBS] Inkmoth Nexus
4 [DS] Darksteel Citadel
4 [SOM] Etched Champion
4 [M10] Ornithopter
4 [SOM] Memnite
4 [WWK] Stoneforge Mystic
4 [MMA] Arcbound Ravager
2 [NPH] Vault Skirge
4 [MR] Thoughtcast
4 [FD] Cranial Plating
4 [SOM] Mox Opal
4 [LRW] Springleaf Drum
2 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
1 [MMA] Paradise Mantle
1 [BOK] Umezawa's Jitte
SB: 1 [MBS] Tezzeret, Agent of Bolas
SB: 4 [THS] Thoughtseize
SB: 3 [DKA] Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 3 [NPH] Dispatch
SB: 1 [DS] Specter's Shroud
SB: 3 [MBS] Phyrexian Revoker
Notes from testing for the last month and a half:
- The Thoughtseizes have been amazing. I've shied away from the 8-9 heavy discard plan with using Therapies in addition to TS. Even if I'm not facing Leyline of Sanctity, the Therapies seem like overkill, and I'd rather have Thoughtseizes than Therapies.
- My paranoia regarding graveyard hate has died down, so now I feel pretty safe with 3 dedicated pieces of gy hate. Plus, against Reanimator, I have Dispatch as additional hate.
- Speaking of Dispatch, with the popularity of Dark Depths, I think it's a must in the SB now, unless you are running Pithing Needle to be able to stop both Vampire Hexmage/Thespian's Stage from summoning Marit Lage.
- Specter's Shroud has proven to be sick, and quite hilarious considering it's a $0.25 uncommon. But don't laugh too much, it actually works. The Cloudpost player I faced this week after seeing me play it against him says that it should without a doubt be a 1-of in my SB.
- In my match against Cloudpost, I managed to get my opponent down to 0 cards in hand, however he still won because of Top, and because Top is such a pivotal card in that deck, I knew I needed a way to stop it. Thus, I ended up cutting the Therapies and my 1-of Batterskull for the 3 Revokers. I think the Revokers are solid against Cloudpost since they stop Top (or possibly O-Stone), and furthermore they can carry Equipment like Specter's Shroud. I can't wait to try Revokers against my Cloudpost opponents this weekend.
Has anyone else tested Affinity in the last month? Any findings or results anyone wants to share?
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)
Reply With Quote