New Card Frame coming with M15

[Lord Seth]

Yeah, that's the exact thing that occured on my mind this night - it's just like music industry. They're overrunned by pirates and such and instead of making something "revolutionary", they just insist on dicking around with their" copying killz muzick" stupidities. Like if I care if some elderly rockstar doesn't have enough money for his everyday's dose of cocaine... Look, I work in a record manufacturee and guess what, ppl are buying vinyls like crazy and there's nothing can stop them. I see albums like "Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism" by Immortal, Cloudkicker's "The Discovery", Black Sabbath's "You name the album", etc. Basically their reprinting Lotus after Lotus and I see it works. Retruning back to MtG: why should I pay for a CD version of Technohead, when I can have an LP version of Motörhead... oh wait, "we at WotC no reprint Motörhead because collectors. Here, have your Technohead instead, they come with ugly frame, too."
I-di-ots.

Actually, I believe the music industry did make something "revolutionary" because of piracy: iTunes.

Well, technically, Apple made it. But they obviously got the music industry on board with it.

[Arsenal]

FWIW, the music industry HATES iTunes. Apple holds all the cards, dictates the price points for songs, and essentially tells the music industry to get on board with it's slanted terms or gtfo.

[Richard Cheese]

I'm fine with my collection losing value if it means more players, but who exactly is going to run Legacy events when all the new kids are buying proxies overseas? I was under the impression stores held events to buy/sell cards not out of the kindness of their hearts. That is basically what happened to Vintage except the counterfeiter was a black sharpie, but once people stop buying cards the format will dry up pretty quick (I mean imagine Legacy in the US right now without SCG in the game). So far only a handful of staples have been printed but with people talking the way they are it will be more soon because the demand is definitely there.

Eh, most people buy their stuff online now anyway. Stores still collect entry fees, and if you award prizes in store credit then you're kinda forcing people to go through you to an extent anyway, which is more or less the way it is now. I think it's more of a moral conundrum - high quality fakes could be good for lowering the entry barrier to eternal formats, but you're still breaking the rules. It's even more morally fuzzy if they really do flood the market and are good enough to be nearly indistinguishable from real cards, how do people even know if they're playing with fakes? Do you still deserve to be punished if you aren't aware you're breaking the rules?

[Lord Seth]

FWIW, the music industry HATES iTunes. Apple holds all the cards, dictates the price points for songs, and essentially tells the music industry to get on board with it's slanted terms or gtfo.

I never said they were happy to get on board with it.

Though I am curious as to whether their profits have increased or decreased thanks to iTunes.

[Mewens]

Reading through the Reddit thread ...

Sorry, gotta stop you right there. Already identified the problem.

[dontbiteitholmes]

Sorry, gotta stop you right there. Already identified the problem.

Reddit is full of idiots for sure but it's FULL of them. If that hivemind has already justified buying fake cards and giving zero fucks about it then there will be a distributor soon enough to fill that demand. I've pretty much decided to sell out of the game now, because it is going to be a lot harder once the market is flooded with fake cards and after seeing people's reaction to these counterfeits I don't really think I believe in the long term health of the game anymore. I've pretty much pulled a complete 180 in the past week to be honest, I was fully ready to hold on to my collection for a long time but that doesn't seem like the best option anymore.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Actually, I believe the music industry did make something "revolutionary" because of piracy: iTunes.

Well, technically, Apple made it. But they obviously got the music industry on board with it.

But it took them ten years.


Holmes, even though I agree with you that counterfeiting cards is immoral, I still can't justify sitting on ten thousands of dollars while my house needs repair or w/e. Yep, there's that argument "go find a better job and work 24/7 so that you may finance your children's pictorial game hobby", but I won't. So basically, if I decide to cash out, I may either: cash out completely without any methadon, or I'll cash out and will play MWS, or I will cash out and play proxy.
Yep, none of this will help neither WotC nor lgs, but whatever? I'm not obliged to play children's pictorial game and I really don't care what will happen with WotC. It's not my trouble that they're unwilling or unable to reprint the money stuff. If they'd printed loads and loads of it, this all would never happen, as there would be no intention to fake something that has little financial value. Yes, there'd be Moxes and stuff, but these were there since 1990's. What's more scaring is the fact that now we're talking about quite a recent stuff that was printed in quite a reasonable numbers, yet it's still a 100 USD matter, like Jace or Goyf or w/e.

Basically they should have kept the "core set = reprints only" policy, use the white boarders, etc., to make the money stuff more affordable for those who just wanna play the game, and the collectibility factor would be saved for those whom it may concern only, naturally. I guess that no one will stick blue Mauritius on their letter to grandma, but WotC inability (or whatever it is) to reprint at the very least the non-RL money cards, simply forces the players to either leave the competitive scene or use the blue Mauritii on the grandma-letters. What on earth is that? I won't be playing with USD 2500 deck, NO WAY!

This doesn't mean I support fakes. This means I'd love if WotC reprinted the stuff so that it's more affordable for those uniniterested in collectible aspect, without hurting the collectors. Maybe it's not possible, but w/e, I'm more player than collector, and if the players might profit only at the expense of collectors, so be it. You dislike it? What. Ever. That's how the world of particular interests works...

I've pretty much decided to sell out of the game now, because it is going to be a lot harder once the market is flooded with fake cards and after seeing people's reaction to these counterfeits I don't really think I believe in the long term health of the game anymore. I've pretty much pulled a complete 180 in the past week to be honest, I was fully ready to hold on to my collection for a long time but that doesn't seem like the best option anymore.

+1

[Derklord]

Reading through the Reddit thread about the Chinese counterfeits has got me seriously considering selling out of the game. Basically all the comments were like "I hope this crashes the value of eternal cards" and shit like that, as if it's even going to matter because when sanctioned eternal events are overrun with fakes they will quickly cease to exist. Every comment that even implied buying counterfeits was wrong was downvoted to oblivion. I don't think the supply chain is there yet for these selfish idiots to proxy out their cube by supporting this but whatever. I mean if you're going to buy from some counterfeit network, whatever nothing I can do to stop you, but the entirety of Reddit has already gone into full blinders on mode and basically convinced themselves that supporting this is the just and moral thing to do. I mean the levels of people diluting themselves there is insane, you would think counterfeiting a game gives you a nobel prize the way people there were justifying it. I might as well sell out now before it gets to the point where every card is scrutinized like a Mox and it just gets impossible.

The way I see it, WotC is like a car company. They refuse to produce spare parts for their old cards to make peoply buy their new cars. In my opinion, they have no right to complain when some third party company starts manufacturing parts for the old cars so that people unwilling or unable to afford a brand new car every year can still drive their old ones.
Let's say your own a 1958 Corvette with a broken fuel injection and Chevrolet doesn't produce spare parts for it anymore - would you rather switch to a new car or buy a fuel injection from a different company?

The thing is, when it comes to legacy cards, the counterfeiting isn't even (directly) hurting WotC because they deliberatly chose to not print the old cards. The Reserved List is not the problem, there are more expensive legacy staples off the RL than on it. The counterfeits are the answer to WotC's asshole reprint policy and that is why so many people react positiv to them.

And about tournaments: Aren't there entrance fees? There are nightclubs, conventions, festivals etc. all over the globe, mostly operating solely on entrance fees. I'm sure SCG can make money at their tournaments without selling a single card. With more legacy players due to lower prices, there could actually be more tournaments, organized by local player groups.

Yeah, that's the exact thing that occured on my mind this night - it's just like music industry. They're overrunned by pirates and such and instead of making something "revolutionary", they just insist on dicking around with their" copying killz muzick" stupidities. Like if I care if some elderly rockstar doesn't have enough money for his everyday's dose of cocaine... Look, I work in a record manufacturee and guess what, ppl are buying vinyls like crazy and there's nothing can stop them. I see albums like "Diabolical Fullmoon Mysticism" by Immortal, Cloudkicker's "The Discovery", Black Sabbath's "You name the album", etc. Basically their reprinting Lotus after Lotus and I see it works. Retruning back to MtG: why should I pay for a CD version of Technohead, when I can have an LP version of Motörhead... oh wait, "we at WotC no reprint Motörhead because collectors. Here, have your Technohead instead, they come with ugly frame, too."

Haven't you seen MTV Cribs lately? They only have like 20 bedroomes in theit houses nowadays, see? The internet totally killed the music industry!
Seriously though, I think I need to put that in my signature. But who is Cloudkicker?

Edit:

FWIW, the music industry HATES iTunes. Apple holds all the cards, dictates the price points for songs, and essentially tells the music industry to get on board with it's slanted terms or gtfo.

And that's why iTunes is a suprisingly good comparison. The record label's chose to whine rather than change, and now Apple is getting half the cake. If there is a demand, sooner or later someone will fill it.If the original company is to stupid do do it themselves, serves them right when eventually someone else does.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Haven't you seen MTV Cribs lately? They only have like 20 bedroomes in theit houses nowadays, see? The internet totally killed the music industry!
Seriously though, I think I need to put that in my signature. But who is Cloudkicker?

I don't have TV, so no, I haven't seen MTV Cribs and I don't even know what's that... But I still congratulate them on their 20 bedrooms.
Cloudkicker? Best djent ever...

[Barook]

And about tournaments: Aren't there entrance fees? There are nightclubs, conventions, festivals etc. all over the globe, mostly operating solely on entrance fees. I'm sure SCG can make money at their tournaments without selling a single card. With more legacy players due to lower prices, there could actually be more tournaments, organized by local player groups.

SCG supports their Legacy Opens with 10000$ price money. With an entry fee of 40$, you need 250 people to break even, and that doesn't even include the price of renting the place for another day after Standard. And they don't reach 250 people at all places, hence them dropping Legacy at certain locations last year. However, since they're the only dealer there and charge premium, they should still make a nice amount of cash, otherwise, they wouldn't bring back the Legacy events in those cities this year.

In the end, those fakes are a byproduct of Wizards' greedy business strategy to make high money cards artificially scarce to sell more stuff. FTW:20 wouldn't have put people into a buying frenzy if Jace wasn't a 100+$ card. Same with Modern Masters - high value cards, too limited print run. Put Wasteland or Force of Will into a special precon said and its guaranteed to sell like candy.

Now said strategy is going to bite them in the ass. Loss in confidence in the secondary market is one problem, not being able to put out shitty products with one high-value money card might be another that directly affects them.

Edit: Just came in today: 75$ Modern Precons

[Mewens]

$75 precons, huh. ... Honestly don't know how to approach that, though my kneejerk reaction is to upend a table.

[Aggro_zombies]

$75 precons, huh. ... Honestly don't know how to approach that, though my kneejerk reaction is to upend a table.

If they're any good, they'll be more than $75.

If they're not very good, they'll sit on shelves for months on end like most of the rest of the Event Decks do.

[Lord Seth]

Oh, as if any stores will actually be selling for $75 and not jacking up the price at least 50%.

[Barook]

Oh, as if any stores will actually be selling for $75 and not jacking up the price at least 50%.

I've already said it in the other thread: If there's a money card like Tarmogoyf in there, expect prices at 200+$, similiar to FTV:20.

They would have to print the crap out of it to meet demand.

[Aggro_zombies]

Oh, as if any stores will actually be selling for $75 and not jacking up the price at least 50%.

They've made Event Decks in the past that were worth at least MSRP if not more than that. The problem is that no one ever wants to buy them - even the kiddies trying to get into Standard generally prefer to trade for cards and build a deck of their own than buy one out of the box. You can still pick up RtR event decks around here, for example.

I doubt they'd put Tarmogoyf in one of these considering how they made it mythic in a print run-limited set (Modern Masters) because they were terrified of actually lowering its price. There might - might - be shocks and fetchlands. The shocks are pretty devalued at this point, but fetches would be a boon. The problem is that they're only likely to put one or two copies of one or two of the fetches in there, which won't do much to prices.

I mean, it's always possible that they're printing some awful Tier 2 deck like Scapeshift and the Event Deck will just rot on shelves forever, but they might also take a crack at making a half-decent Pod deck or something.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

They've made Event Decks in the past that were worth at least MSRP if not more than that. The problem is that no one ever wants to buy them - even the kiddies trying to get into Standard generally prefer to trade for cards and build a deck of their own than buy one out of the box. You can still pick up RtR event decks around here, for example.

I doubt they'd put Tarmogoyf in one of these considering how they made it mythic in a print run-limited set (Modern Masters) because they were terrified of actually lowering its price. There might - might - be shocks and fetchlands. The shocks are pretty devalued at this point, but fetches would be a boon. The problem is that they're only likely to put one or two copies of one or two of the fetches in there, which won't do much to prices.

I mean, it's always possible that they're printing some awful Tier 2 deck like Scapeshift and the Event Deck will just rot on shelves forever, but they might also take a crack at making a half-decent Pod deck or something.

I doubt they'll print the fetches, I think they love to print the whole cycles and I don't see them putting all five fetches into one deck. If, otoh, there are plans for another such products...

[CaptainTwiddle]

To touch on the original topic of the changes to the card frame/design, I wonder if the holo stamp, in addition to being an anti-counterfeit measure, is also a way to dissuade people from doing full alters. The alters market has gone far beyond what I would have ever imagined. The fact that people are paying extra for cards that may be disallowed in a tournament and have been totally changed from their immediately recognizable image by someone other than the original artist, makes little to no sense to me.

Regarding the Modern Precons, and any other similar product, I always have a hard time with figuring how they determine the MSRP. I mean, the cost of production for the Modern Event decks isn't likely any higher than that of the standard ones, which means that the MSRP is being based on the secondary market value of the contents. That just seems shady, especially when they know that most shops will sell any limited edition product at more than MSRP. Granted, Magic players themselves need to accept some of the blame for the ridiculous prices on some of these products. If people weren't willing to pay so much, they wouldn't be worth so much.

[Barook]

To touch on the original topic of the changes to the card frame/design, I wonder if the holo stamp, in addition to being an anti-counterfeit measure, is also a way to dissuade people from doing full alters. The alters market has gone far beyond what I would have ever imagined. The fact that people are paying extra for cards that may be disallowed in a tournament and have been totally changed from their immediately recognizable image by someone other than the original artist, makes little to no sense to me.

Regarding the Modern Precons, and any other similar product, I always have a hard time with figuring how they determine the MSRP. I mean, the cost of production for the Modern Event decks isn't likely any higher than that of the standard ones, which means that the MSRP is being based on the secondary market value of the contents. That just seems shady, especially when they know that most shops will sell any limited edition product at more than MSRP. Granted, Magic players themselves need to accept some of the blame for the ridiculous prices on some of these products. If people weren't willing to pay so much, they wouldn't be worth so much.

Wizards embraces high secondary market prices to a certain extend, though. Money cards are what sells packs, not Pale Moons. See: Thoughtseize in Theros, Voice of Resurgence in DGM, JMS in FTV: 20 or TNN in Commander 2013.

They only care if a supported format becomes so prohibitively expensive that tournament attendance drop.

Everything else? Capitalism, ho!

[Mewens]

MaRo hoooooo!

If printed to demand, that changes the dynamics of the decks entirely. I doubt Wizards wants to tread too firmly on archetype pillars ('goyf, Lili 2.0, etc.), but I could imagine them gleefully setting prices for Tarn / Rainforest (and other ubiquitous staples) to $32ish through these.

[Lord Seth]

Honestly, the real question is why they bother advertising the MSRP when no one follows it anyway for anything other than stuff like basic booster packs.