Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
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Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
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Standstill
Natural Order
Wizards knows how people feel about TNN so I doubt SFM would get the axe over TNN just because TNN is in newer product. Maro made a post on his blog about this earlier this month. Plus people are pretty upset that a Legacy card has basically made it impossible to track down the Grixis deck, its even worse than Scavenging Ooze/Flusterstorm last time around.Originally Posted by Aggro_zombies
That's fair, and really not a lot of time was given for the format to potentially adjust. I feel like the biggest point of contention is that cards like Pithing Needle, Disenchant, and Extirpate were great against the card Survival of the Fittest but extremely poor against the other 56 cards in their deck (which was basically Maverick).
Anyways, whether or not the previous format could have actually battled Survival is rather moot now because the current slew of hate fights not only the Survival itself but the entire GW shell that it was placed in (RIP, Terminus, Deathrite, Abrupt Decay, etc).
I mean, current Jund lists pack anywhere from 6-8 cards in the sideboard that are clearly for the TNN matchup. I suppose they could just start running those cards maindeck in order to "adapt" to the TNN-meta, but then they just lose even harder to other stuff? I don't think that's healthy if a Jund player has to seriously contemplate maindecking his narrow sideboard hate in order to "adapt".
I'm actually quite suprised how fast TNN decks completely wrecked Jund on MODO. I was looking up if Jund was still doing reasonable well in the online meta, just to see it vanished into nothingness:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/metagame/legacy/full
I don't play Jund, but it appears that TNN decks absolutely violate Jund, making the claims that Jund is an anti-TNN deck pretty funny.
The absence of Jund also explains why D&T is more popular than ever on MODO since it's one of the few decks that can fight off TNN decks while having a horrible match-up against Jund (and Elves, which are suprisingly absent as well).
Maverick isn't going to be seen anywhere anytime soon until it gets now toys which make it suck less in the current meta. It has way more problems than just TNN.
Interesting side fact: Imperial Painter seems to perform extremely well in that given meta. Too bad Recruiters are still horribly expensive in paper, even with the Judge promo.
The thing with painter is that you have only proactive answers and not reactive ones. I should look at maybe Meekstone again and run etut in the side. Maybe I can build something that is custom to this situation.
I am not a fan of this Meta and I am thankful that since the GP has come and gone here, people are willing to convert back to pet decks. That brings to mind and interesting question. At your local store, how many people try and keep up with the trends and how many play pet decks? We may just find another "Gentlemen's agreement" if people just go back to pet decks.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
I played those cards in Can Thresh, I had three Snares main, some number of Needles in sb (maybe three?) and at least two KGrips plus some gravehate (I'd guess three Crpyts or something liek that). But the problem was that...
Our store is mixed. Half play sneak and Show, Stoneblade and whatever. Half brew random stuff. One week I might play against sneak abd show, Blade, and reanimator, the next I'll play vs Tezzeret Stax, Meekstone Stompy, and Reanimator Pox
Jund is abosultely fine against TNN.
Punishing Fire engine kills the other dudes.
Liliana kills the TNNs.
Discard handles stuff that would mess with Junds plan.
Bob and Sylvan draw more gas.
Decay kills equipment.
Charms from the side kill TNN.
REBs from the side counter TNN.
Seems like Batterskull is the real problem.
EDIT: Wait, you were having trouble with a GW version of Vengevinal???
I remember casting Ad Nauseam against those. And killing them.
We used to encounter UG versions that were quite annoying, but GW?
Come on, you can beat an improved Maverick! What are you guys playing? Highlander?
Our shop is similar, but it's a little bit divided:
There are players who own one or two decks (like I do) and they come with them on each Thursday and pit against each other.
Then there are players who have nothing but bad claptrap and these lend decks from a guy who has like sixteen decks (like I had) and those play with whatever bone he throws them.
Very funny.
Batterskull isn't a new card and Jund could just thrive fine during its existence. The tournament data clearly indicate that Jund can't perform well anymore in a TNN meta, be it online or in Paper.
I have 3 main issues with your data. One is that these decks existed before TNN, so while they got an upgrade for some cards they're not fundamentally different. The second is that some blue decks that run them don't run the full four. The third is that some blue decks that could definitely use them to great effect choose not to use them altogether. If they're so good why not run the full four everytime?
Huh, what? This isn't true.
Here's a deck from before TNN. 2 MMs, 2 Canonists, 3 Blasts, no Flusterstorms.
Here's a deck from after TNN. 4 MMs, 3 Blasts, no Flusterstorms.
If other people are adding Flusterstorms or running more hatebears(since, you know, attacking from 1 angle-this case being counters, isn't the best thing to do) that's well within the realm of normalcy for SB change.
Not that it has been doing poorly. Multiple combo decks took top8 in the last couple of Opens.
Combo being a response to it is not a bad development. Combo is a good and accepted pillar of archetypes. It(non Show and Tell) was doing poorly to mediocre before TNN. Chalk that up to a benefit of TNN warping.
Jund being less played isn't necessarily a bad thing either. When a metagame changes some decks are lost(though Jund isn't lost, just less effective), that's part of the deal. Some are also gained, like Jund-Depths or an increase in combo decks.
It's better than Geist for sure, but Souls still sees play as a 1-3-of in addition or replacement of TNN. Tombstalker has not been replaced in all lists.
True unfortunately.
Statistics mess up reality, like I said earlier.
Oh no, latest results show Jund is bad against something. Let's stop playing it!
Or maybe we grow a set of brains and start testing. Adapting. Making sense, for a change.
If we're start pointing our fingers at SFM/Equipment, I'd say Jitte is probably a wiser ban than SFM/Batterskull. Jitte is always good with or without SFM. No other Equipment have such a potential impact on the game if its carrier connects to the defending player just ONCE. I think we'd see more creativity among lists with SFM in them, like seeing more Swords of X&Y MD, or Manriki-Gusari in the SB to deal with those Swords.
Want to beat True-Name Nemesis? Here's what you do when your opponent resolves it, and they name you.
So true...
There is always a public enemy: specialy if that card implies deep changes in decklists.
Have you tried a build with Ensnaring Bridge in the main?
Yes, but its not always easy to drop what is in your hand at a fast enough speed to stop a Jitte equipped creature from getting tokens. Once they do Painter is not likely to stay long. Still its worth running and I do. Thanks for the post.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
1.) Pre-TNN, you could only call Patriot a true meta player as Blade Control and Deathblade were way, way down. I went through this already in a different thread, but here's the data: (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post772437).
The fact that Blade decks existed as a Magic: The Gathering deck pre-TNN is irrelevant as they weren't nearly putting up the results they are post-TNN. If they were all top tier before TNN (which my data shows they weren't), you'd have a point there. But alas, they were not, so you do not.
2.) Ever notice that decks only run enough TNN as they do Equipment? Patriot runs 2 maindeck Equipments and 2 TNN. Blade Control is generally on 3 maindeck Equipments and 3 maindeck TNN. You don't need to run the full 4 because you're not going to be able to have 2 TNN both equipped with Jitte in play or 2 TNN w/ 2 Batterskull equipped to them. I can't believe I even had to point that out.
Also, there are many decks that do not run a full playset of a card, even though that card is a defining, pivotal piece. Jund runs 3 Bloodbraid, AnT runs 1 Ad Nauseam, etc. Your argument of "unless it runs 4, it isn't a TNN deck" makes no sense whatsoever as TNN is clearly the primary mechanism of all of these decks' success. Again, look at the tourney results for all of these decks pre-TNN and post-TNN, it's almost night and day.
3.) Every deck that can maximize TNN's potential is currently doing so. Every deck running blue and SFM is running TNN. As UR Burn and Team America has learned by now, TNN w/o Equipment sucks, but ONLY because it's very likely facing off against an opposing TNN w/ Equipment. If the best thing you can do is resolve TNN, then what better way to trump your opponent's TNN then to Equip your TNN with Jitte? Oh that's right, there is no better strategy which why people have been CRUSHING with the TNN-Equipment plan.
The only deck that will run a full set almost all the time is Fish. That's because the deck has a very different game plan (swarm not equip) and it has no deck manipulation. All the others can fall back on the redundancy of Blue's deck manipulation and SFM to get the job done.
It is better to ask and look stupid then keep your mouth shut and remain so.
I hope your afterlife is filled with eternal torment.
Fuck. Which one of my quotes do I drop for this?
Not this shit again.
First, let me say Golgari Charm is bad as an answer to True-Name: it only works if he isn't pumped up, which if they get a chance to equip Batterskull to him, you're out of luck.
Having said that, I believe the anti-TNN crowd is severely unwilling to adapt. Citing the death of aggro is ridiculous as aggro hasn't been a major contender for awhile. Citing the death of non-blue decks is slightly less ridiculous, as while they are indeed on the decline, they're doing stupid crap (running Bolt for removal in addition to Punishing Fire+Grove of the Burnwillows in a TNN+SFM-heavy meta; using the aforementioned Golgari Charm as opposed to Pernicious Deed, Damnation, or Toxic Deluge).
Granted, this doesn't solve the consistency or versatility issue with non-blue midrange. But I believe it's time for something fresh: non-blue or splash-blue control. Nic Fit is perfectly positioned in this meta in my opinion, particularly those that can answer Stoneforge Mystic and/or Batterskull (TNN is easy to beat by itself for Nic Fit because it runs maindeck sweepers with potentially more in the sideboard).
Still, the more I think about it, maybe banning this wouldn't be that bad of an idea. It'd be nice if they printed the following as a replacement:
True-Name Watchwolf - 1GW
Creature - Wolf
Hexproof, Protection from Creatures.
3/3
Essentially the same except vulnerable to Pyroclasm, but in colors that could benefit from it.
You need two Pyroclasms to kill it, though.
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