All B/R update speculation.

[menace13]

there is no better strategy which why people have been CRUSHING with the TNN-Equipment plan.

You'll hear that bullshit about how It's not a TNN deck a lot. And it's true. If That makes it any better that the "not a TNN deck" decks took an upgrade with TNN and slotted it in while continuing along their regular game plan unimpeded...

[Dzra]

I don't play Jund, but it appears that TNN decks absolutely violate Jund, making the claims that Jund is an anti-TNN deck pretty funny.

I'm not sure why this surprises anyone. When TNN was spoiled, my first thoughts were "oh this will be great against all of those GBx midranged decks that rely on Abrupt Decay and creatures to beat other fair decks." TNN doesn't make Jund a bad deck per say; GBx verses Stoneblade was always a close match. Attrition verses CA. Goyf verses SFM. Deathrite verses Snapcaster. Bloodbraid/Shardless verses Batterskull. True-Name Nemesis just pushes Stoneblade over the top.

This is really very similar to how Survival hate worked back in the day. Golgari Charm and Liliana are great against True-Name Nemesis... in a vacuum. It's just too bad that those cards are total trash against the rest of a deck that is packed full of x/2s, 4/4 recurring Germs, and a ton of soft permission. Before TNN, Jund and Shardless had one simple task against Delver decks: get enough mana to cast your superior spells. In addition to that, they now have to add in: find some way to kill this nearly unkillable monster before it gets equipped because then it really is going to be unkillable.

Wait, you were having trouble with a GW version of Vengevinal??? I remember casting Ad Nauseam against those. And killing them.

I'm sure that ANT or any combo deck would have preferred to see the non-FoW version, but against the majority of the field (including but not limited to all the other Survival decks) the GW version was much more resilient while still packing just as much explosive potential.

Again, I'm not saying ban anything, least of all SFM/equipment for crying out loud. I wish they'd errata TNN, but if they aren't willing to do that then I'm still not ready to see a banning yet.

[sdematt]

I think an errata for TNN to an ETB seems very interesting and full of much more interaction.

Imagine:

1) Stoneblade players wants to play TNN. Jamming it on Turn 3 into an open BGx player means it could get STP'd, Bolted, etc.

2) BGx player hates to see TNN around, and has to keep mana open to kill it in response. Otherwise, TNN is going to be the pain it is now.

3) Tempo decks running Stifle get to have an opportunity here as well.


There's more meaningful ways to try and next level your opponent. Do I cast my bomb or keep mana open to nuke TNN? Do I jam TNN against my Jund opponent hoping they don't have it?

The card will still end up being good because you're a blue deck playing counterspells, but there's a lot more leveling going on that I would definitely enjoy, very similar to the "Opponent plays Jace TMS against a deck that may have Bolt. Do I fateseal to protect or Brainstorm to profit?"

-Matt

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Wizards doesn't do power level errata anymore, people should stop suggesting that.

[Dzra]

I would look at it more as an errata for intent. Perhaps I'm being naive, but I don't believe TNN was intended to be as non-interactive as it is within a 2-player game. Progenitus is one thing. Invisible Stalker is another. In multiplayer TNN makes perfect sense and can even be considered flavorful. In 2-player games, a hexproof, unblockable, three powered, protection from all forms of damage creature for strikes me like it must have simply been an oversight.

[Darkenslight]

Wizards doesn't do power level errata anymore, people should stop suggesting that.

Then I would argue that TNN is probably going to get banned some time in the next 6 months from Legacy, because decks that were merely middling have got a considerable boost from TNN's introduction, to a point of dominance, if not yet the point of dominance that VengeSur decks got to. Or Mirrodin-era Clamp decks.

[Lemnear]

Born of the Gods is complete and my only hope for a changing metagame is the B&R update on 3.Feb ... so sad


Edit: WotC found a way to make Money off the Legacy crowd with the Commander Set which has a gigantic print run. There is no chance that they'll ban the only selling argument of those set. I rather expect it becoming a Judge promo than being banned.

SFM and S&T may be the only cards on the watch-list atm, but I doubt any bannings are required. Earthcraft off the list ... that's all

[Barook]

SFM and S&T may be the only cards on the watch-list atm, but I doubt any bannings are required. Earthcraft off the list ... that's all

S&T doesn't put up the numbers to be ban-worthy.

While I can see Wizards being stupid enough to ban SFM, it doesn't address the problem why the format went haywire. Stoneforge was fine before TNN and by removing Nemesis, the format can go back to normal where your ground forces aren't dead in the water against a goddamn fish. One could draw parallels with SotF, but Survival had several ways to be broken and was repeatable, while SFM is a one-shot tutor.

[Dark Ritual]

S&T doesn't put up the numbers to be ban-worthy.

While I can see Wizards being stupid enough to ban SFM, it doesn't address the problem why the format went haywire. Stoneforge was fine before TNN and by removing Nemesis, the format can go back to normal where your ground forces aren't dead in the water against a goddamn fish. One could draw parallels with SotF, but Survival had several ways to be broken and was repeatable, while SFM is a one-shot tutor.

Tinker, demonic tutor, vampiric tutor, mystical tutor...all these one shot tutors. Are any fair? Not even remotely. SFM is innocuous but in terms of where it it powerlevel wise of cards printed in the last 10 years I can think of 2 cards that outclass it. Jace, the mind sculptor and skullclamp. The card is absolutely incredible at what it does and is one of the most played cards in legacy for a reason.

Mystical tutor didn't put up enough numbers to be banworthy and look what happened. Yes, it was bad for the metagame no doubt about it. But numbers wise no it wasn't there. The same can be said of show and tell. Doesn't put up numbers, but is it good to have in the metagame? No.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I guess that their excus is that SFM is a Demonic Tutor for just a limited number of targets and fail to realize that it's Demonic Tutor and Aether Vial and Felidar Sovereign.

[miguelmatix]

If TNN costed green or white mana no one would call for a ban.. Anyway you guys are prob right: they wont touch it till the grixis deck stock is sold. Lol

Maybe they will free earthcraft. I just wish survival back ;(

[DragoFireheart]

I wish WotC would make up its mind. If WotC is not going to ban it then fine, I'll buy some. But, if they are, I'll wait for the price to drop. Not getting burned again like with SotF.

[barcode]

All I want is to unban Chrome Mox and/or Wild Nacatl in Modern. Legacy is fine right now.

[DragoFireheart]

All I want is to unban Chrome Mox and/or Wild Nacatl in Modern. Legacy is fine right now.

[troll]
"Why do you want to play a watered down Legacy lite when you could play the real thing?"
[/troll]

[Mr Miagi]

TNN is toxic for the legacy. Period.

[Arsenal]

Jund is abosultely fine against TNN.
Punishing Fire engine kills the other dudes.
Liliana kills the TNNs.
Discard handles stuff that would mess with Junds plan.
Bob and Sylvan draw more gas.
Decay kills equipment.
Charms from the side kill TNN.
REBs from the side counter TNN.

Seems like Batterskull is the real problem.

You're singing the same old song that others were in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread, claiming that Jund will do well versus TNN because of it's potential answers. I then provided a fairly detailed analysis as to why your threat-answer theorycrafting hasn't translated to real world success and even provided data showing that Jund is essentially dead thanks to TNN. Yet you still claim that Jund is "absolutely fine". Wow.

Just to illustrate my point and to show how laughable your position is, here's data from thecouncil on Jund's death:

January 2013 - 2nd Place
February 2013 - 2nd Place
March 2013 - 4th Place
April 2013 - 3rd Place
May 2013 - 6th Place
June 2013 - 4th Place
July 2013 - 5th Place
August 2013 - 2nd Place
September 2013 - 8th Place
October 2013 - 6th Place

That's a 4th place average for the 10 months pre-TNN. Also, Blade decks were way, way down during that same time period. Jund was CRUSHING Blade style decks pre-TNN, Batterskull most certainly wasn't/isn't "the real problem".

November 2013 - 12th Place
December 2013 - 11th Place
January 2014 - 25th Place

That's a 16th place average for the 3 months post-TNN. Unsurprisingly, Blade decks are way, way up with Patriot and Deathblade running away with the #1 and #2 spots for January 2014, respectively. Yep, seems like Jund is doing "absolutely fine" against TNN. Thanks for playing .

First, let me say Golgari Charm is bad as an answer to True-Name: it only works if he isn't pumped up, which if they get a chance to equip Batterskull to him, you're out of luck.

Having said that, I believe the anti-TNN crowd is severely unwilling to adapt. Citing the death of aggro is ridiculous as aggro hasn't been a major contender for awhile. Citing the death of non-blue decks is slightly less ridiculous, as while they are indeed on the decline, they're doing stupid crap (running Bolt for removal in addition to Punishing Fire+Grove of the Burnwillows in a TNN+SFM-heavy meta; using the aforementioned Golgari Charm as opposed to Pernicious Deed, Damnation, or Toxic Deluge).

I re-read the last few pages of this thread and nobody ever said anything about TNN killing pure aggro strategies. Care to quote who said that? Also, if you look at sideboards, people are running Pernicious Deed, Toxic Deluge, etc in an attempt to combat TNN. However, the general consensus on that (read the Jund thread since November) is that it's often going to harm your board just as much, if not more sometimes, than your TNN opponent. Jund gets there with creatures and reach (although not even reach if you're advocating Jund dropping Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire from the maindeck). So in your Jund build, you literally are a creature deck running maindeck Toxic Deluge, Deed and Damnation... lolwut?

If you Deed for 3, you definitely hit their TNN and maybe other stuff that didn't already die to Punishing Fire/Lightning Bolt/Ancient Grudge/etc, but you also just took out your own Sylvan Library, Deathrite Shaman and Goyf. Damnation? If you're okay with Wrathing away your own Bob and Goyf in order to get their TNN and Snapcaster (that has already Flashbacked for value), cool. If you have an empty board and they have stuff you can Damnation for value, awesome, but you weren't applying any pressure with your empty board, so they were winning regardless. The TNN player will have Brainstorm and higher card quality than Jund, so by Jund playing these one-shot 3-4cc Sorcery speed spells (hoping they resolve), you really just are playing into the control aspect that TNN decks are able to effectively assume.

I don't understand what your definition of "adapting" is. I sure hope you don't mean playing narrow, context-specific sideboard cards like Ancient Grudge and Toxic Deluge maindeck. That isn't "adapting", that's a card warping the format. Running maindeck Lightning Bolt is "stupid" according to you, but running a narrower sideboard card like Damnation (which obliterates your own gameplan in your theoretical all-creature, no-burn Jund build) in it's place is next-level "adapting"? Sure thing pal.

[BVB09]

I don't think it's anything to discuss with TNN. It's a card that I don't like, even as a Merfolk player
But the probabilities of it getting banned are 0, at least in this update. It's absolutely imposible that WotC would ban a card that they have just realeased in a suppemental product specifically for us.
We will have to "adapt" for at least 3 more months...
If WotC thought TNN was too powerfull/dominant (which I don't think it's the case) they would ban SFM, Batterskull or Jitte, only to weak it a bit.
But banning it? I'm sure that won't happen, at least until 3 months time it's not worth discussing.
They don't take us in consideration when looking at the B&R list anyway, I expect another boring announcement with no changes. Look at Time Spiral or Land Tax, they have been there for ages and they represent 1% of the metagame.

[DragoFireheart]

It's absolutely imposible that WotC would ban a card that they have just realeased in a suppemental product specifically for us.

WotC banned Mind's Desire before the set was released.

Nothing is impossible.

[BVB09]

WotC banned Mind's Desire before the set was released.

Nothing is impossible.

I know, but they probably didn't make the card for Legacy. And it was part of a complete set.
This scenario is much diferent; if there is an only reason to buy their product is TNN.
Also, looking for example at MaRo statements, they don't feel TNN has been so bad. I think their feeling about the card is diferent to ours.

[DragoFireheart]

I know, but they probably didn't make the card for Legacy.

It's absolutely imposible that WotC would ban a card that they have just realeased in a suppemental product specifically for us.

Ok, which is it? Did they make TNN for Legacy or not?