All B/R update speculation.

[Shawon]

I know, but they probably didn't make the card for Legacy. And it was part of a complete set.
This scenario is much diferent; if there is an only reason to buy their product is TNN.
Also, looking for example at MaRo statements, they don't feel TNN has been so bad. I think their feeling about the card is diferent to ours.

Another counterexample: WotC banned Stoneforge Mystic & Jace TMS a month before their exit from Standard, despite having recently reprinted Stoneforge Mystic as a 2-of in a preconstructed theme deck.

Sales might influence WotC to keep a card around for a little while longer, but sales will never preclude WotC from banning anything.

[Barsoom]

Also, looking for example at MaRo statements, they don't feel TNN has been so bad. I think their feeling about the card is diferent to ours.

Are you sure?

[Dihensoeur]

The Banlist

If you look the list, you will see few banned creatures. And banned creatures are banned for super-combo reasons. No creature has been banished for its aggro-power.

True-Name-Nemesis is only the 5th most played creature in the meta (source) with 22,7% (Deathrite Shaman (36,1%), Tarmogoyf (26,9%), Delver of secrets (26,9%) and SFM (24,4%) are before).

This is too weak for a ban for "too large presence" for TNN.

Tarmogoyf hasn't been banished (even if many people would it).
Grisel hasn't been banished (even if many people would it).
TNN will not be banished (even if many people want it).
SFM will not be banished.

We don't like TNN yes, but it seems that we have no choice to become brainless in legacy...Play TNNs VS TNNs and win without any reflections/strategies...
Maybe WotC doesn't care if noobs beat a pro players by playing TNN quicker than pro players...
Maybe WotC like to see the meta very blue...

Don't have hope in a TNN ban.

[BVB09]

Ok, which is it? Did they make TNN for Legacy or not?

I meant they didn't make Mind's Desire for Legacy.

[Nielsie]

I don't understand people defending TNN.

Be serious and honest: What would you rather play? The deck with narrow answers, no library manipulation to search for them and not enough room anymore for your own agressive threats (Jund) OR the deck with flexible answers, library manipulation to search for the best one, counter magic and a series of threats that need to be answered with very specific hate (blade/patriot decks)?

TNN may have answers but why would you try to defeat it when playing it yourself is so much easier? That is why everyone is starting to play blue, last SCG 14 out of the top16 decks were blue and most of them were playing some amount of TNN or simply did not care about the merfolk.

[Arsenal]

Notice that all of the "the format has never been healthier!" people haven't refuted any of my statistics and data that I've provided and they certainly haven't provided any data of their own to support their "Jund is absolutely fine against TNN" claims. Not surprised.

EDIT: HSCK actually did provide data... but the data he provided just re-affirmed my "Jund is dead post-TNN" position, so... thanks?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Sure thing pal.

Why do you do this?

Junde, blah, blah, Jund, blah, blah, etc.

First of all, I'm not sure if Jund's demise is something I should cry about, the are dozens and dozens of outdated decks and now Jund is one of them, AND WHAT? What's bad about it's demise is how it happened, and that's TNN's guilt, for sure.
Speaking of Jund, why is this terminus technicus limited to BobGoyfHymnBoltDecay deck? I thought that the shards or guilds or w/e it is might be used in other context then established decks. Maybe by "adapting" one may mean "use the name for different deck"? Something like Jund Fit or Control Jund or w/e.

22 Jund lands
10 targeted removal (bolt, AD, Fire)
8 discard (TS, Iok, Duress, Hymn)
4 Deed (Deed)
2 mass removal (Damnation or Deluge)
4 PWs (Lili, maybe Garruk
4 wincons (Titans?)
6 utility slots (SDT, LftL, Genesis, EWit, ???

[Barook]

First of all, I'm not sure if Jund's demise is something I should cry about, the are dozens and dozens of outdated decks and now Jund is one of them, AND WHAT? What's bad about it's demise is how it happened, and that's TNN's guilt, for sure.

I think Jund is a good show case how a Tier 1 deck that can pack tons of answers to TNN still dies like a bitch to it.

People just don't like the trend of "Play blue, combo or GTFO" that TNN caused.

[Lemnear]

Is Jund the next Zoo? Is the "health" of a format now defined by how Jund performs? Did former "ban anything that's better than Nacatl!" Zoo player moved to Jund and we have now the same whining based on "ban anything better than BBE!"? I don't see why this should be the case.

I'm fine with storm, S&T, Tempo, NicFit/Loam/attrition decks, SFM, Miracles and others in a mix representing Legacy in T16's. A top 16 with basically 50% of a single supertype is however undesireable. Jund is nothing but part of the metagame ... Nothing outstanding.

TNN + SFM will be hated out more in the upcoming months.

[FTW]

Color Pie in 1996:
Black - best combo enablers, lots of creature removal and discard
Red - Best reach (burn and dragons)
Green - Most efficient creatures, best ramp
Blue - Best card drawing and stack interaction
White - Best damage prevention/life gain

Color Pie in 2014:
Blue - best card selection, best creatures, best stack interaction, best combo enablers
White - best removal, best anti-aggro, best enchant/artifact enablers, best hatebears
Black - best discard, best GY tricks, best planeswalkers
Green - best mana, best creature tutoring
Red - best burn

Hmm... UW is taking over more and more... surprised at meta result?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

I think Jund is a good show case how a Tier 1 deck that can pack tons of answers to TNN still dies like a bitch to it.

People just don't like the trend of "Play blue, combo or GTFO" that TNN caused.

I'm not sure I sent my message well... I mean, the trouble is not specifically in Jund's demise, as there are decks and decks and decks that became dead ever since 2004. Trouble is in what TNN have doen to meta. (if it is due to TNN, on which I don't want t o speculate, as I'm lazy to follow Arsenal's links to Top8s data.)
Hence, I'd wished to move the discussion to two points: what's TNN doing, and how should a potential "Next Level Jund" look like so that it might still compete and it has chance against both combo and TNN.

Again, I think that what I proposed might be reasonable:

22 Jund lands

3 Sensei's Div. Top

4 Innocent Blood
3 Bolts
3 ADs
2 Punishing Fire

3 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Hymn to Tourach

4 Veteran Explorer

3 Pern. Deed
1 Toxic Deluge

1 Eternal Witness
1 Primeval Titan
1 Thragtusk

3 Liliana of TV
1 some Garruk


Shave to sixty. Is this a copycat of Nic Fit? Is it viable?

Is Jund the next Zoo? Is the "health" of a format now defined by how Jund performs?

This.

[Arsenal]

I think Jund is a good show case how a Tier 1 deck that can pack tons of answers to TNN still dies like a bitch to it.

People just don't like the trend of "Play blue, combo or GTFO" that TNN caused.

This, emphasis mine, although it should actually be "Play TNN, A+B combo, or GTFO". Everyone in the "Would you like to see TNN go away" thread said that TNN wouldn't be that big of a deal because Jund, a then tier 1 deck that had the ability to run a metric ton of direct TNN answers, was there to police TNN decks. After 3 months of TNN crushing everything, now it's "Welp, what's the big deal if Jund died to TNN anyway?"... cute.

Also, as the Storm players in this thread pointed out, it isn't even "play combo" anymore, it's "play a specific type of A+B combo like Sneak & Show" as Storm is way, way down due to TNN decks being able to now overload their SBs with Storm hate.

EDIT: Bed Decks Player, please don't comment on my meta data if you are "too lazy" to even read it. Also, Jund Nic Fit has been a thing for a long time now. Why don't you ask how those players have been treated by the meta?

[GoblinZ]

Is there any possibility survival of the fittest gets unbanned?

[Bed Decks Palyer]

EDIT: Bed Decks Player, please don't comment on my meta data if you are "too lazy" to even read it. Also, Jund Nic Fit has been a thing for a long time now. Why don't you ask how those players have been treated by the meta?

I was lazy to check them, coz I believed you got them correct. But seen that you're total asshole, I don't trust them anymore. So fuck off.
Any link to that Jund Fit deck thread?

[Arsenal]

I was lazy to check them, coz I believed you got them correct. But seen that you're total asshole, I don't trust them anymore. So fuck off.
Any link to that Jund Fit deck thread?

Mark this date of January 24th, 2014 as the day Bed Decks Player didn't trust my data. And called me a "total" asshole. I suppose that's better (worse?) than being a partial asshole? Guile shades activate:

Also, http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...enith-Control). Jund, Scapeshift, etc. They're all lumped in there.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I re-read the last few pages of this thread and nobody ever said anything about TNN killing pure aggro strategies. Care to quote who said that? Also, if you look at sideboards, people are running Pernicious Deed, Toxic Deluge, etc in an attempt to combat TNN. However, the general consensus on that (read the Jund thread since November) is that it's often going to harm your board just as much, if not more sometimes, than your TNN opponent. Jund gets there with creatures and reach (although not even reach if you're advocating Jund dropping Lightning Bolt and Punishing Fire from the maindeck). So in your Jund build, you literally are a creature deck running maindeck Toxic Deluge, Deed and Damnation... lolwut?

If you Deed for 3, you definitely hit their TNN and maybe other stuff that didn't already die to Punishing Fire/Lightning Bolt/Ancient Grudge/etc, but you also just took out your own Sylvan Library, Deathrite Shaman and Goyf. Damnation? If you're okay with Wrathing away your own Bob and Goyf in order to get their TNN and Snapcaster (that has already Flashbacked for value), cool. If you have an empty board and they have stuff you can Damnation for value, awesome, but you weren't applying any pressure with your empty board, so they were winning regardless. The TNN player will have Brainstorm and higher card quality than Jund, so by Jund playing these one-shot 3-4cc Sorcery speed spells (hoping they resolve), you really just are playing into the control aspect that TNN decks are able to effectively assume.

I don't understand what your definition of "adapting" is. I sure hope you don't mean playing narrow, context-specific sideboard cards like Ancient Grudge and Toxic Deluge maindeck. That isn't "adapting", that's a card warping the format. Running maindeck Lightning Bolt is "stupid" according to you, but running a narrower sideboard card like Damnation (which obliterates your own gameplan in your theoretical all-creature, no-burn Jund build) in it's place is next-level "adapting"? Sure thing pal.

1) When I say aggro, I mean both pure aggro and removal-based tempo. Granted, no one mentioned it in this thread, but if I recall correctly it was brought up in the "Would You Like to See Progenifish banned?" thread a few times.

2) Your point about how answers to TNN kill your own board is laughable, when I clearly stated in the next paragraph (one you didn't quote) that maybe due to non-blue midrange's inability to deal with TNN+SFM.dec, it's time for those non-blue midrange decks to evolve into non-blue/blue-splash control. I even suggested Nic Fit as a well-positioned deck for this format, and I will now suggest the various Stage-Depths control lists as viable contenders. I'm actually surprised Miracles and DnT haven't been doing better since they either have maindeck answers to either TNN or equipment (Terminus, Revoker), so I won't suggest them at the moment.

3) Again with the misquotes: I didn't say maindeck Lightning Bolt was stupid; I said it was stupid in conjunction with Punishing Fire in a TNN-heavy meta. I actually can't think of any relevant creatures that can only be killed by Bolt and not Abrupt Decay or Punishing Fire or even Maelstrom Pulse if that's what Jund midrange is willing to run. Also, all creature no burn build? Let me restate that Midrange can't do shit now, and its time for them to evolve into control decks. Drop the creatures that don't provide any utility, drop the reach that can't be recurred effectively, and start putting in more resilient threats and stronger control elements.

And before ya try to say the death of midrange is a bad thing, I'd just like to point out that midrange (and tempo) still exists as SFM+TNN.dec, thus effectively flipping the format on its head and allowing non-blue/blue-splash control to exist in conjunction with blue-heavy tempo/midrange.

[DragoFireheart]

Was Shardless BUG still a good choice to fight TNN decks? Or are all mid-range dying and/or turning more control heavy?

[barcode]

[troll]
"Why do you want to play a watered down Legacy lite when you could play the real thing?"
[/troll]

It's because I'm poor and can only build 12 legacy decks, how can I compete. :(

[DragoFireheart]

It's because I'm poor and can only build 12 legacy decks, how can I compete. :(

Build Burn/Manaless Dredge/Affinity and win.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Was Shardless BUG still a good choice to fight TNN decks? Or are all mid-range dying and/or turning more control heavy?

In all honesty, I'm unfamiliar with Shardless BUG, but it seems to have the same problem as Jund midrange: that is, although it has amazing attrition value, it's still fairly creature-based with some spot removal main (correct me if I'm wrong), which is terrible in a TNN-heavy meta.