All B/R update speculation.

[EpicLevelCommoner]

I've heard that DnT can also handle TNN-decks (yes I did that). It has flyers and other shenanigans so it can handle it. Miracle is obvious as you said. Combo decks, not so much since the TNN are overloading on anti-combo deck sideboard material.

EDIT: I found something

XD yeah. I can't say I like the card: the last thing we need is another Emrakul or Progenitus that can be reasonably hardcast and buffed. I just don't see it as banworthy at the moment.

[ESG]

In all honesty, the data you presented from the council indeed shows a weak trend towards SFM+TNN.dec dominating the format, but I believe the data is inconclusive at the moment, simply because of a lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN+SFM.dec. If after a month or two this trend continues, despite players adapting to fight it, then yeah: it'd deserve a ban.

It doesn't have anything to do with lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN. It's that the answers to TNN aren't great against the rest of Legacy. Thus, playing an "anti"-TNN deck isn't better than playing a TNN deck. The general path to victory is to either play TNN or play combo, which is pretty much what people figured out before GP Owen. Claiming that the data is inconclusive is ridiculous. About the closest we've come to seeing an "anti"-TNN deck rise up was Jund Depths, and obviously there aren't enough Tabernacles in existence for that deck to be Tier I even if it was good enough to be Tier I.

[rxavage]

XD yeah. I can't say I like the card: the last thing we need is another Emrakul or Progenitus that can be reasonably hardcast and buffed. I just don't see it as banworthy at the moment.

I agree. TNN is a pretty stupid card for many reasons but I don't think it is ban-worthy, there may come a time when it is but now is not the time imo.

[DragoFireheart]

It doesn't have anything to do with lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN. It's that the answers to TNN aren't great against the rest of Legacy. Thus, playing an "anti"-TNN deck isn't better than playing a TNN deck. The general path to victory is to either play TNN or play combo, which is pretty much what people figured out before GP Owen. Claiming that the data is inconclusive is ridiculous. About the closest we've come to seeing an "anti"-TNN deck rise up was Jund Depths, and obviously there aren't enough Tabernacles in existence for that deck to be Tier I even if it was good enough to be Tier I.

AKA, it's easier to just play TNN.

[Lemnear]

It doesn't have anything to do with lack of knowledge on how to fight TNN. It's that the answers to TNN aren't great against the rest of Legacy. Thus, playing an "anti"-TNN deck isn't better than playing a TNN deck. The general path to victory is to either play TNN or play combo, which is pretty much what people figured out before GP Owen. Claiming that the data is inconclusive is ridiculous. About the closest we've come to seeing an "anti"-TNN deck rise up was Jund Depths, and obviously there aren't enough Tabernacles in existence for that deck to be Tier I even if it was good enough to be Tier I.

What a nonsense. BUG Control, NicFit, 12-Post, Jund Dephts, Miracles and others work excellent against SFM + TNN and more You can't help people who prefer desperately trying to gain an edge in TNN-mirrors rather than playing Liliana of the Veil and Pernicious Deed. *shrug*

[Barook]

I've heard that DnT can also handle TNN-decks (yes I did that). It has flyers and other shenanigans so it can handle it.

Yes, D&T can race TNN and has some cute interactions to slow down the inevitable "TNN + equipment = you're boned", but it's just not fun - at all. And playing flyers isn't the solution either since they can still annihilate you with a single TNN + equipment of choice.

[HSCK]

What part of D&T is fun for anyone anyway? It's goal is to mana deny you and win. What is the point of talking about fun with a prison bear deck? But TNN, yeah, that's really unfun?

[Zombie]

What part of D&T is fun for anyone anyway? It's goal is to mana deny you and win. What is the point of talking about fun with a prison bear deck? But TNN, yeah, that's really unfun?

Hoofing them in the face? :P

[TraxDaMax]

Emrakul, Griselbrand and the Gerry Thompson token don't care about TNN, why should you? :)

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[TraxDaMax]

Our yearly Belgian championship had only 3 copies of TNN in the top 8. I played 3 decks with them in them. And saw them everywhere but in the end it's still just a creature. Top8 refrerence: http://belgianlegacycup.wordpress.co...22-main-event/
You'll notice most of these decks were prepared for TNN.

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[ESG]

What a nonsense. BUG Control, NicFit, 12-Post, Jund Dephts, Miracles and others work excellent against SFM + TNN and more You can't help people who prefer desperately trying to gain an edge in TNN-mirrors rather than playing Liliana of the Veil and Pernicious Deed. *shrug*

Lemnear, I can agree with those except for Nic Fit. Now, let me explain why those decks aren't better represented. Miracles has the problem of needing to consistently finish rounds in time. An early draw or two can easily take someone out of contention. BUG Control is also pretty slow, but I like it better than Miracles in this regard. 12 Post and Jund Depths are reasonable meta decks, but they are constrained by key pieces that are expensive (Candelabra and Tabernacle). Tabernacle is sold out at $500 on SCG. You can get heavily played ones via eBay for around $350, but obviously people are more trepidatious of eBay in the wake of the counterfeits. A lot of people already had a Delver deck, so swapping out Geist for TNN and redoing the sideboard was cheap and easy, and they didn't have to learn a new deck. Very few people can just pick up a deck (Miracles, for example) and take down a tournament with it. The time spent becoming proficient with a new deck has to be taken into account.

Edit: TraxDaMax, thanks for those results. Innocent Blood is a very strong card for decks that aren't winning via creatures.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

People almost universally agree that True-Name Nemesis makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have True-Name Nemesis.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...

[Secretly.A.Bee]

A whopping $120.00. That's the extent of the logic there, I'm pretty sure.

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[DragoFireheart]

People almost universally agree that True-Name Nemesis makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have True-Name Nemesis.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...

Wait, is this a game where I fill in the blank? Ok, let me try:

People almost universally agree that True-Name Nemesis makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have True-Name Nemesis.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

Rogue creature type. They want to still be able to use TNN with Stinkdrinker Bandit and Cloak and Dagger

[Dzra]

Although I understand that it'd be impractical for paper (too many priority passes, etc), I really wish that paper Magic could implement a chess-clock like MTGO has. It would be soooo much better.

Yeah, I wish there was some feasible way to do this, but I'm coming up a bit short on ideas.

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah, I wish there was some feasible way to do this, but I'm coming up a bit short on ideas.

???

[EpicLevelCommoner]

People almost universally agree that True-Name Nemesis makes the format less interesting and fun, and that by extension presumably the format would be more interesting and fun if it did not have True-Name Nemesis.

Yet people are largely still opposed to banning it. This is for a very simple and reasonable reason, which is:

...

Because it's a creature. Granted, an amazing creature, but still just a creature that can be gotten rid of, albeit in less ways than a Bob, and provides no all-in-one/two engine for a win/draw (Hermit Druid wins, Worldgorger Dragon draws). In my opinion, Emrakul, Progenitus, Iona, and Griselbrand are much more oppressive than this guppy.

[Dzra]

???

Yeah, but who is going to go buy 500 of those? Wizards? SCG?

[DragoFireheart]

Yeah, but who is going to go buy 500 of those? Wizards? SCG?

It's not like they are strapped for cash.

[Barook]

In my opinion, Emrakul, Progenitus, Iona, and Griselbrand are much more oppressive than this guppy.

All of them need a second card to get into play. TNN is pretty good as a stand-alone card and becomes just plain dumb once equipment enters the equation.