All B/R update speculation.

[Secretly.A.Bee]

So all the red flying dragons are secretly black? That's racist!

There are 96 dragons in the game of magic. Not all are red. Even if they were, it's merely a drop in an ocean of non-red flyers. This is to say that flying in this example is a dragon thing, not a red thing.

Also, I guess I should specify "legacy playable" when I post these things. I know it's understood but apparently on a legacy board some people still don't apply logic to semi-broad statements.

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[Barook]

Wotc doenst ban cards because they are not enjoyable or decrease interestingness.

What is Mystical Tutor?

And it didn't even put up that many results when you go to the DtB section of the time of the ban: June 2010

Now compare that with the current meta: January metagame

3 out of the 4 top decks are TNN decks.

[apple713]

What is Mystical Tutor?

And it didn't even put up that many results when you go to the DtB section of the time of the ban: June 2010

Now compare that with the current meta: January metagame

3 out of the 4 top decks are TNN decks.

tutors are rightfully banned.... especially that one. Maybe play it in high tide? i'd play it in S&T. ANT would love to play it. Didn't it get banned with flash?

[Secretly.A.Bee]

tutors are rightfully banned.... especially that one. Maybe play it in high tide? i'd play it in S&T. ANT would love to play it. Didn't it get banned with flash?

ANT did love playing it, and I was mad for a long time when it got banned. Now with S&T I'm glad it's banned but it took a while for me to get to that point of acceptance. I like perfection and brokenness. Sue me. Also, I play TNN.

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[Darkenslight]

There are 96 dragons in the game of magic. Not all are red. Even if they were, it's merely a drop in an ocean of non-red flyers. This is to say that flying in this example is a dragon thing, not a red thing.

Also, I guess I should specify "legacy playable" when I post these things. I know it's understood but apparently on a legacy board some people still don't apply logic to semi-broad statements.

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My point remains, however - Blue should not have gotten the best 1-drop from that set. MY reasoning for Delver being red is that it keys only off of instants and sorceries, and Red is secondary for sorcery and instant interactions.

[HSCK]

What is Mystical Tutor?

And it didn't even put up that many results when you go to the DtB section of the time of the ban: June 2010

Now compare that with the current meta: January metagame

3 out of the 4 top decks are TNN decks.

You mean 2? The top deck is most assuredly not TNN centric.

[Barook]

My point remains, however - Blue should not have gotten the best 1-drop from that set. MY reasoning for Delver being red is that it keys only off of instants and sorceries, and Red is secondary for sorcery and instant interactions.

Delver shouldn't have been printed in its current form at all: It may have been balanced as a 2/2 flyer, but that can't be changed anymore.

TNN is just the latest addition to the blue pillars which are the reason why Blue is so dominant right now:

1. Brainstorm
2. Delver
3. TNN
4. Show & Tell

It would be interesting how the format would look like without those four cards. (For the record: Right now, only TNN deserves to get the axe due to being a format-warping, unfun PoS.)

Edit:

You mean 2? The top deck is most assuredly not TNN centric.

While Patriot is a Delver deck, it's also a TNN deck. Just because they run only two copies doesn't mean that they won't end the game regularly with the TNN plan.

[Darkenslight]

Delver shouldn't have been printed in its current form at all: It may have been balanced as a 2/2 flyer, but that can't be changed anymore.

TNN is just the latest addition to the blue pillars which are the reason why Blue is so dominant right now:

1. Brainstorm
2. Delver
3. TNN
4. Show & Tell

It would be interesting how the format would look like without those four cards. (For the record: Right now, only TNN deserves to get the axe due to being a format-warping, unfun PoS.)

Pretty much, though if you took Delver and TNN out, Blue aggro/tempo decks, such as Stoneblade variants or Delver, would be a lot weaker. Removing Brainstorm would hit combo hard, and removing S'N'T hits the primary blue combo decks (Sneak and Show is the main one, but also the Omnitell variants.)

[Lemnear]

I'm still not sure if SFM isn't the real offender here in the duo that defines the DtB's according to results :/

Pretty sure, the only reason, aside the stupid lack of interactivity, for TNN being in the focus here is, that SFM is also in near every other, fucking non-blue aggro deck. That fact is imo pretty significant ... from blades to Miracles crossovers to D&T to Maverick to Deadguy Ale ... everyone (except RUG and that deck is on the decline) runs SFM.

[Arsenal]

Very, very few Miracles lists are on the hybrid SFM-CounterTop plan. Maverick isn't a deck anymore since Nov 1st and the vast majority of Maverick lists don't run SFM. Deadguy Ale isn't a deck at all anymore and really hasn't been since the 2008/09-ish.

The fact that there are many tier 2/3 decks running SFM and not dominating is just a testament to SFM being unbanworthy, imo.

[Zombie]

While Patriot is a Delver deck, it's also a TNN deck. Just because they run only two copies doesn't mean that they won't end the game regularly with the TNN plan.

As another example: Elves. Typically 4 Glimpse main to 3 NO yet most any competent Elves pilot will tell you it's a NO deck first and foremost, not a Glimpse deck.

Very, very few Miracles lists are on the hybrid SFM-CounterTop plan. Maverick isn't a deck anymore since Nov 1st and the vast majority of Maverick lists don't run SFM. Deadguy Ale isn't a deck at all anymore and really hasn't been since the 2008/09-ish.

The fact that there are many tier 2/3 decks running SFM and not dominating is just a testament to SFM being unbanworthy, imo.

Besides which, playing against SFM doesn't make me want to tear my hair out. TNN does. And I play a combo deck that doesn't give a shit about TNN but is in huge trouble if Jitte connects even once. The reason? *gasp* interaction.

[Megadeus]

TNN did not push out Maverick, Goblins or Aggro Loam ... those decks were dead long before. What about doing some Background Research before claiming such nonsense? "I play strategy X, so I don't care" isn't very helpful overall and the reason I don't bring up combo decks discussing the fact, that atm most decklists start with either Delver, SFM or Griselbrand as their creatures

I'm pretty sure I piloted 4 color loam to a top 32 finish and only blowing my chance at top 8ing when I forgot to de-sideboard after a round. Also Hoogland and a few others had similar if not more success with the deck than I did pre TNN

[EpicLevelCommoner]

Enough with this lack-of-interaction bullshit.

Just because it turns off all of your non-evasive beats, chump-blockers, and targeted spot removal, doesn't mean there aren't ways to deal with TNN, even when paired with SFM and Batterskull (Jitte isn't as oppressive with TNN as B.Skull is). It's called control.

Tabernacle, Liliana 2.0, Smallpox, Deed, Deluge, Terminus, etc. are all playable to some extent in Legacy and can deal with it regardless of what equipment is attached to it.

In all honesty, if anything needs a ban, it's Batterskull. To give an idea of how excessively over-the-top it is, take a look at this:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...lt.aspx?text=+[lifelink]+[vigilance]

Banning it would still allow Stoneforge to be used alongside Jitte and the Swords, and TNN would slightly easier to get rid of.

[catmint]

I'm still not sure if SFM isn't the real offender here in the duo that defines the DtB's according to results :/

Pretty sure, the only reason, aside the stupid lack of interactivity, for TNN being in the focus here is, that SFM is also in near every other, fucking non-blue aggro deck. That fact is imo pretty significant ... from blades to Miracles crossovers to D&T to Maverick to Deadguy Ale ... everyone (except RUG and that deck is on the decline) runs SFM.

Agree somehow. As I specified in another thread there is a "unique" problem to the power of SFM.

If you compare the "legacy power 2 drop creature cycle" SFM is however the most problematic in the sense of his powerlevel is bound to rise much higher compared to the others.

Snapcaster has synergy with the best/most efficient spells. We know wizards won't print a ton of those which can make it into legacy, but they've showed willingness to print a lot of gravehard hate so I think snapcaster won't become a problem.

Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant and Young pyromancer cannot really improve a lot by new prints.

However the better the equipments get and the bodies to carry them the more broken SFM gets. The most important recent milestones are Batterskull, Lingering Souls and now TNN (Altough stuff like Geist, Thalia, Mirran Crusader,... also improved the power level of SFM). Now I hope and don't think wizards will print something better than jitte, sword of x and y or Batterskull, but with creature power creep and them not caring about legacy it can easily happen that more "broken in legacy" equipment carriers are released.

Now TNN might just push SFM over the top so the first reaction of the community is to ban this stupid TNN as it is just an "unmagic" magic card, but if you think of it, SFM might hurt the format diversity a lot more than TNN and might be even a long term problem without TNN.

I am not set on ban SFM (so far I just wanted to undo this stupid TNN), but it feels like banning SFM would turn the whole format upside down.

My reasoning for banning SFM (and I am not sure if I want it or if its "correct") would be that the format would be reset and I can imagine it being very diverse. It would for sure be very exciting until the format settles down again.

[Megadeus]

Enough with this lack-of-interaction bullshit.

Just because it turns off all of your non-evasive beats, chump-blockers, and targeted spot removal, doesn't mean there aren't ways to deal with TNN, even when paired with SFM and Batterskull (Jitte isn't as oppressive with TNN as B.Skull is). It's called control.

Tabernacle, Liliana 2.0, Smallpox, Deed, Deluge, Terminus, etc. are all playable to some extent in Legacy and can deal with it regardless of what equipment is attached to it.

In all honesty, if anything needs a ban, it's Batterskull. To give an idea of how excessively over-the-top it is, take a look at this:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Se...lt.aspx?text=+[lifelink]+[vigilance]

Banning it would still allow Stoneforge to be used alongside Jitte and the Swords, and TNN would slightly easier to get rid of.

Not saying that I agree, but I would be fine with a batterskull ban. I fucking hate that card.

[nedleeds]

All the psychobabble coming out of the last 10 posts could be more aptly applied to brainstorm

My reasoning for banning brainstorm (and I am not sure if I want it or if its "correct") would be that the format would be reset and I can imagine it being very diverse.

I hate Batterskull also ... it's the Vengevine, SoTF reaction though. Many players just snap grab the batterskull with no way to protect their SFM and get pooned anyway. Of course ... they can just shuffle it away with Brainstorm so why not just grab it?

[Megadeus]

All the psychobabble coming out of the last 10 posts could be more aptly applied to brainstorm



I hate Batterskull also ... it's the Vengevine, SoTF reaction though. Many players just snap grab the batterskull with no way to protect their SFM and get pooned anyway. Of course ... they can just shuffle it away with Brainstorm so why not just grab it?

I just hate that if they untap with it I can actually just never kill it. Makes me infinitely sad :(

Hence why I play 2 Krosan Grip in my SB

[nedleeds]

It's a frustrating card no doubt. But still better than Show and Tell Derp Derp Derp.

[Mr. Froggy]

It's a frustrating card no doubt. But still better than Show and Tell Derp Derp Derp.

I agree wholeheartedly with this. I hate S&T even if my deck is made to kill the card.

[nedleeds]

It's frustrating because even the lowliest chimp can just have the 2 cards and you might have mulliganed (or be in game 1) to find any answer and are just stone dead. Most people playing it also want to talk about the 'game' you just had. I mean. You cast Show and Tell and I didn't have an answer and the game ended. Interesting, deep, immersive eternal format we have here. In Vintage when one player tinker -> Blightsteels the other guy on turn 1 he usually apologizes.