All B/R update speculation.

[Zombie]

Good points. In your opinion, are these reasons enough to keep the Vise banned?

I want a "Mulligan: The Goldfishing" long-sleeve right now!

Being a good card, no. But it's one of those cards whose only purpose is to make games awful without contributing much anything interesting to the format. Just like a couple blue three-drops do.

[Dice_Box]

The reason for me to sell the Rock is that I am not going to spend more money to make it Legacy legal. In the face of that, no reason to hold onto all the "Staples" that someone else is willing to spend the money on. No point holding the cards if someone else wants to use them.

Also, to the guy offering me $5 for my deck, Rock is dead. Junk and Jund are not but Rock is. The point of the deck was you cut a 3rd colour, ran the core and played a control game with Fulminator and Tec Edge. In the light of this banning I have the option to play pure Midrange or start over. I have no interest in pure midrange and I just built this. No, both ideas suck. Plus, G/Bx was doing well, but it was not putting up the numbers needed to hit it again. It's had two bannings in less than a year. I just do not feel that Modern is a stable enough format that I can invest into it again.

Goblins and Painter for me are R/W, Elves has Thoughtseize already in the side, I do not have a lot of the old Duals I had any more. I traded them to build the Rock. That's also another reason I am bitter, I traded Legacy Staples that I would have used in Goblins to get this deck, now it's dead to me. An emotional dead weight on top of the express killing of 5 months of trading, buying and saving. In the end I only paid $200 cash for the deck. The rest was trades.

I want this deck gone. Someone else can make use of it but right now it's nothing but a pile of pain to me.

[PirateKing]

I want this deck gone. Someone else can make use of it but right now it's nothing but a pile of pain to me.

that was sad and now I am sad

[Arsenal]

I just do not feel that Modern is a stable enough format that I can invest into it again.

Legacy players can't have it both ways though. I've read countless posts about how Legacy players wants Wizards to ban/unban Card X, Y, Z. But then in the same breath, they want Legacy to be "stable" (aka, no bans/unbans)... I don't get it.

[twndomn]

Legacy players can't have it both ways though. I've read countless posts about how Legacy players wants Wizards to ban/unban Card X, Y, Z. But then in the same breath, they want Legacy to be "stable" (aka, no bans/unbans)... I don't get it.

Of course you don't get it, you're confused and you mixed up things. Ban and Unban are 2 different things. You don't seem to understand this simple fact: people complain and whine about particular card, wanting it to be banned, across ALL FORMAT. People biatch, for the lack of better term, on the Internet, all the time. You should not take those comments seriously, these ban comments have no values.

Now look at Legacy players who want to unban certain cards. First of all, they don't agree and they often conflict with each other. There's no universal agreement on what should be unbanned. Second, you question their motive, maybe they've already invested in some obsoleted Legacy decks and unbanning would bring it back.

Once again, your analysis of Legacy is just way, way off.

[Dice_Box]

Legacy players can't have it both ways though. I've read countless posts about how Legacy players wants Wizards to ban/unban Card X, Y, Z. But then in the same breath, they want Legacy to be "stable" (aka, no bans/unbans)... I don't get it.

I understand your point, but G/Bx was not winning PTQ"s out the ass, it was not winning all the events that where around. It was a solid deck that was not putting up all that special numbers. Hell Snapcaster is more played in the format

I am not saying that you should never look into banning or unbaning cards, but I am saying you should not ban a card just because your personal bias is against it and you happen to have the power to do so. (Like Grave Troll on modern.)

I am not looking to have it both ways, I am looking to play a game. Now an option I no longer have since travel to the one Legacy event close to me is prohibitive and my second choice of playing Modern is gone.

[Arsenal]

Of course you don't get it, you're confused and you mixed up things. Ban and Unban are 2 different things. You don't seem to understand this simple fact: people complain and whine about particular card, wanting it to be banned, across ALL FORMAT. People biatch, for the lack of better term, on the Internet, all the time. You should not take those comments seriously, these ban comments have no values.

Now look at Legacy players who want to unban certain cards. First of all, they don't agree and they often conflict with each other. There's no universal agreement on what should be unbanned. Second, you question their motive, maybe they've already invested in some obsoleted Legacy decks and unbanning would bring it back.

Once again, your analysis of Legacy is just way, way off.

Ban and unban are the same when talking about stability of the format. Whether the majority of players agree on what to ban or unban is irrelevant to my point. Do you even read my posts?

[twndomn]

Ban and unban are the same when talking about stability of the format. Whether the majority of players agree on what to ban or unban is irrelevant to my point. Do you even read my posts?

Obviously, after I have exposed the ridiculous falseness of your post, you're now just dodging. No they are not the same, yes they are relevant to your point. Do you even understand my post?

[Arsenal]

Obviously, after I have exposed the ridiculous falseness of your post, you're now just dodging. No they are not the same, yes they are relevant to your point. Do you even understand my post?

Um, when you're talking about changes to the format, a ban and unban are essentially the same. Even if the impact is short lived (Land Tax unban anyone), it still destabilizes the format. Ban Show and Tell, the format shifts. Unban Survival of the Fittest, the format shifts. Do you even understand what we're talking about?

I don't understand why you believe a ban would be different than an unban when it comes to altering the format's landscape, even if for a short time (depending on how powerful the card that is banned/unbanned). They certainly achieve the same end result; the format shifts.

[Dice_Box]

But the thing about Legacy is you can see the bans coming. I can tell you that SnT will be banned. Not today, it's not strong enough, but with previous banning you can see a pattern of cards that gets banned. SnT fits in it. So long term it's in danger.

Now if you bought SnT tomorrow wanting to play with it, that would be a fair call, it's not degenerative right now, but you are also taking a risk and you would understand that. (Que the people that think SnT is never going to be banned and totally miss my point.)


Modern is a different beast. Cards are banned not because they break the format, they are banned in the hopes of "Developing" the format. It's like Wizards is trying to prune a hedge or something. It's crazy. Because you never know what they will do next and that's unstable.

[HammerAndSickled]

No offense, but if you couldn't see that DRS was leagues and bounds ahead of the power level of Modern then you have bigger issues in card evaluation in general and probably aren't well suited to competitive Magic. A big part of this game is being able to evaluate cards in a format for synergy and raw power and be able to see what cards are expected to surpass others in performance. And those same basic skills would lend basically anyone to see that DRS was the absolute best card in Modern.

[Arsenal]

But the thing about Legacy is you can see the bans coming. I can tell you that SnT will be banned. Not today, it's not strong enough, but with previous banning you can see a pattern of cards that getter banned. SnT fits in it. So long term it's in danger.

Now if you bought SnT tomorrow wanting to play with it, that would be a fair call, it's not degenerative right now, but you are also taking a risk and you would understand that. (Que the people that think SnT is never going to be banned and totally miss my point.)


Modern is a different beast. Cards are banned not because they break the format, they are banned in the hopes of "Developing" the format. It's like Wizards is trying to prune a hedge or something. It's crazy. Because you never know what they will do next and that's unstable.

I disagree. Many Modern players understood that Eggs was likely to get a ban, same with BGx decks (BBE was the first to go, but BGx was still fair game). Now, if they banned some fringe playable card like Through the Breach, then I'd be with you, but if you followed Modern the last couple years, these bans aren't as out of nowhere as you make them seem.

[twndomn]

Um, when you're talking about changes to the format, a ban and unban are essentially the same. Even if the impact is short lived (Land Tax unban anyone), it still destabilizes the format. Ban Show and Tell, the format shifts. Unban Survival of the Fittest, the format shifts. Do you even understand what we're talking about?

I don't understand why you believe a ban would be different than an unban when it comes to altering the format's landscape, even if for a short time (depending on how powerful the card that is banned/unbanned). They certainly achieve the same end result; the format shifts.

The last time Legacy banned something, it was 2011. People discuss banning of a certain card every season for all formats, but it's been years before a Real banning took place. That's the difference, do you not understand it? There's a difference between the people whining on Internet and the actual event taking place, for Legacy at the least. Therefore, when you discuss Legacy, you should assume that the real banning rarely taking place. Therefore, when the banning does take place, it's much much more evident and more serious.

Now, when you discuss Modern, that's completely different.

[Lemnear]

I disagree. Many Modern players understood that Eggs was likely to get a ban, same with BGx decks (BBE was the first to go, but BGx was still fair game). Now, if they banned some fringe playable card like Through the Breach, then I'd be with you, but if you followed Modern the last couple years, these bans aren't as out of nowhere as you make them seem.

To be fair, the Format was introduced and formed with 2 waves of baseless bannings. ;P

[Arsenal]

The last time Legacy banned something, it was 2011. People discuss banning of a certain card every season for all formats, but it's been years before a Real banning took place. That's the difference, do you not understand it? There's a difference between the people whining on Internet and the actual event taking place, for Legacy at the least. Therefore, when you discuss Legacy, you should assume that the real banning rarely taking place. Therefore, when the banning does take place, it's much much more evident and more serious.

Now, when you discuss Modern, that's completely different.

None of what you just posted addressed my position of "banning and unbannings in Legacy will result in format shifts/destabilization". You claim that bannings and unbannings are different when it comes to format stabilization, but they're really not.
______________________________

Lemnear -

True, but that was 3 years ago. Since then, the bannings have been fairly easy to detect and foresee if you paid attention to Modern. Which is what I'm saying to Dice_Box; Modern bannings aren't as "out of nowhere" as he thinks. Perhaps it's because he's relatively new to the format, but the banning of DRS really wasn't that big of a shock. Lots of people don't like it, but they knew it was likely.

Likewise, the unbanning of Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl isn't that big of a shock either. Zoo isn't exactly tearing it up in Modern and a 3/3 for G (and a bunch of fetch/shockland life) isn't going to make it top tier, but probably more competitive than Zoo currently is. Fae may become a thing now with Bitterblossom, who knows?

Now if they banned some fringe playable card? Yep, then I'd get on board with what Dice_Box is saying. Or if they even unbanned some powerful card like JtMS, my jaw would drop in shock as it goes against everything Wizards has done so far since 2011.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

No offense, but if you couldn't see that DRS was leagues and bounds ahead of the power level of Modern then you have bigger issues in card evaluation in general and probably aren't well suited to competitive Magic. A big part of this game is being able to evaluate cards in a format for synergy and raw power and be able to see what cards are expected to surpass others in performance. And those same basic skills would lend basically anyone to see that DRS was the absolute best card in Modern...

...which is proofed by which one old post of yours where you predict the ban?

[Arsenal]

...which is proofed by which one old post of yours where you predict the ban?

Although not HammerAndSickled, Phoenix Ignition, a competitive Modern player, correctly predicted that DRS could be a possible ban candidate on 1-15-14:

Most deserving of a ban is Deathrite Shaman...

Which just goes to show you that these Modern bannings aren't as "out of nowhere" as some people believe. You just have to be a Modern player to understand what's good, too good, and what's banworthy.

I'll try to find it, but I believe I mentioned that something in Eggs was going to get banned. I wasn't entirely sure what tbh, but I knew that Eggs wasn't something Wizards wanted in Modern, so a ban was likely to occur. A few weeks later, Second Sunrise is gone.

[Lemnear]

None of what you just posted addressed my position of "banning and unbannings in Legacy will result in format shifts/destabilization". You claim that bannings and unbannings are different when it comes to format stabilization, but they're really not.
______________________________

Lemnear -

True, but that was 3 years ago. Since then, the bannings have been fairly easy to detect and foresee if you paid attention to Modern. Which is what I'm saying to Dice_Box; Modern bannings aren't as "out of nowhere" as he thinks. Perhaps it's because he's relatively new to the format, but the banning of DRS really wasn't that big of a shock. Lots of people don't like it, but they knew it was likely.

Likewise, the unbanning of Bitterblossom and Wild Nacatl isn't that big of a shock either. Zoo isn't exactly tearing it up in Modern and a 3/3 for G (and a bunch of fetch/shockland life) isn't going to make it top tier, but probably more competitive than Zoo currently is. Fae may become a thing now with Bitterblossom, who knows?

Now if they banned some fringe playable card? Yep, then I'd get on board with what Dice_Box is saying. Or if they even unbanned some powerful card like JtMS, my jaw would drop in shock as it goes against everything Wizards has done so far since 2011.

I'm with you that the format was a bit out of balance and you could smell something coming. One of my previous rants was more directed towards the general focus of the format and the resulting B&R Management, which appear to be "changing the flavor of aggro".

For me personally the format isn't attraktive because WotC banned all hard-control-Elements from the very beginning without more reason than their personal wishes and unstable, risky combo decks aren't allowed to win faster than turn -sideways.dec. They lost me after killing both of my build decks within the first year...

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Although not HammerAndSickled, Phoenix Ignition, a competitive Modern player, correctly predicted that DRS could be a possible ban candidate on 1-15-14:

But I'm not interested if Phoenix Ignition assessed the ban. I'm interested if a guy who wrote "if you couldn't see that DRS was leagues and bounds ahead of the power level of Modern then you have bigger issues in card evaluation in general and probably aren't well suited to competitive Magic" predicted the ban.

[lordofthepit]

May get your head out of your ass and realize that I look at recent results worldwide and not some specific, hand-picked US tournaments

I have a contempt for jackasses with selective perception

Considering the logical contortions you had to go through to discredit decks that have been successful, I hope you're not labeling me as having selective perception.

I also hope you're willing to discuss the format civilly, and not blast a new user with a valid point as a "freshman" with his "head up his ass" while calling anyone who disagrees a "jackass". That's rich.