[Ballsack McGee] Sylvan Primordial is banned

[Ace/Homebrew]

Artifact of Perception
Artifact
Artifact of Perception is hard to quantify.
Good / cards are "dick moves" in a different way from / stuff.
"Let the broken players have blue stuff." - Jace Beleren

Red/White has the tools to be highly competitive. Unfortunately using them is generally frowned upon by the larger *casual* EDH community and it takes a specific type of player to want to use them. A guy at my LGS has a Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer deck that is mana rocks and Armageddon effects. It is very good at preying upon the non-basic land meta here.

Ramping lands and playing fatties, or drawing cards and blinking for value appeals to a wide swath of the EDH player base. Destroying all lands and keeping your opponents out of the game appeals to a much smaller portion of the community (and is generally poorly received). Most attempts I've seen at Boros EDH is "extra attacks" or "voltron". These decks get blown out by a board wipe or can't generate card advantage to be relevant in the late game. They exclude the cards that would win them the game because they are labeled "unfun".

If they made Sylvan Primordial red (and search for Mountains), would it have gotten banned? It is kind of a neat thought experiment... I know many do not believe Sylvan was strong enough to be banned in the first place, but going with the assumption that it is, is the strength of the card diminished if it was printed in ,, or ?

[TsumiBand]

Artifact of Perception
Artifact
Artifact of Perception is hard to quantify.
Good / cards are "dick moves" in a different way from / stuff.
"Let the broken players have blue stuff." - Jace Beleren

Red/White has the tools to be highly competitive. Unfortunately using them is generally frowned upon by the larger *casual* EDH community and it takes a specific type of player to want to use them. A guy at my LGS has a Jor Kadeen, the Prevailer deck that is mana rocks and Armageddon effects. It is very good at preying upon the non-basic land meta here.

Ramping lands and playing fatties, or drawing cards and blinking for value appeals to a wide swath of the EDH player base. Destroying all lands and keeping your opponents out of the game appeals to a much smaller portion of the community (and is generally poorly received). Most attempts I've seen at Boros EDH is "extra attacks" or "voltron". These decks get blown out by a board wipe or can't generate card advantage to be relevant in the late game. They exclude the cards that would win them the game because they are labeled "unfun".

If they made Sylvan Primordial red (and search for Mountains), would it have gotten banned? It is kind of a neat thought experiment... I know many do not believe Sylvan was strong enough to be banned in the first place, but going with the assumption that it is, is the strength of the card diminished if it was printed in ,, or ?

10/10, would read again

I particularly like the colorshifted thought experiment. In a world where cards are correctly colorshifted (or as correctly as can be shifted, anyway), would they still be perceived as problematic? We do this regularly with cards like Delver of Secrets and Flashback Guy That I Can't Think Of His Name Right Now, always wondering what the state of Legacy would be if they were placed in Red; but the bar for bannings is a lot higher in Legacy, and we don't typically think of cards this way if they are on the banlist. But I think that EDH is a good place to ask this question, in particular because of the Artifact of Perception Effect -- the APE. Let it henceforth be referred to as such. "Wow, Woodfall Primus is banned? Must be the APE."

I might just be an anomalous EDH player, because as much as I want to play thematically interesting and sound decks that can actually End The Game, the last time I played against a friend's Oloro Stax deck it was all I could do to keep from laughing the whole time. Precisely because I knew that no one else was prepared for it, and yeah it was totally dicking me too, but it was hilarious to see it work against the guys at the table that couldn't figure out why no-synergy.rith and friends weren't able to actually play anything that mattered.

[Davran]

I might just be an anomalous EDH player, because as much as I want to play thematically interesting and sound decks that can actually End The Game, the last time I played against a friend's Oloro Stax deck it was all I could do to keep from laughing the whole time. Precisely because I knew that no one else was prepared for it, and yeah it was totally dicking me too, but it was hilarious to see it work against the guys at the table that couldn't figure out why no-synergy.rith and friends weren't able to actually play anything that mattered.

This is what EDH should be. Who the hell cares if you're losing as long as you're having fun? Instead let's ban anything that anyone ever won a game with in a way we didn't find appropriate. That'll show 'em to win games with magic cards.

[Offler]

^this exactly.

On the other hand if you see exactly same cards in totally different decks, you might get suspicious about that card.

[Aggro_zombies]

I particularly like the colorshifted thought experiment. In a world where cards are correctly colorshifted (or as correctly as can be shifted, anyway), would they still be perceived as problematic? We do this regularly with cards like Delver of Secrets and Flashback Guy That I Can't Think Of His Name Right Now, always wondering what the state of Legacy would be if they were placed in Red; but the bar for bannings is a lot higher in Legacy, and we don't typically think of cards this way if they are on the banlist. But I think that EDH is a good place to ask this question, in particular because of the Artifact of Perception Effect -- the APE. Let it henceforth be referred to as such. "Wow, Woodfall Primus is banned? Must be the APE."

Sylvan Primordial would get played in almost every red deck ever if only because it destroys enchantments, and that's something red is sorely lacking the ability to do.

However, one wrinkle in this thought experiment is that not all colors are equally popular. The effect of Sylvan Primordial - blow up three lands (or sometimes nonlands), ramp - is powerful in the abstract. It would be less oppressive in white, red, or black if only because white, red, and black seem to show up less often than green. Actually, it would still be oppressive in black, since it's now in the same color as efficient tutors and reanimation spells and it makes Coffers gross early in the game.

[TsumiBand]

Sylvan Primordial would get played in almost every red deck ever if only because it destroys enchantments, and that's something red is sorely lacking the ability to do.

However, one wrinkle in this thought experiment is that not all colors are equally popular. The effect of Sylvan Primordial - blow up three lands (or sometimes nonlands), ramp - is powerful in the abstract. It would be less oppressive in white, red, or black if only because white, red, and black seem to show up less often than green. Actually, it would still be oppressive in black, since it's now in the same color as efficient tutors and reanimation spells and it makes Coffers gross early in the game.

Well I think the popularity of colors is tied into the APE, right -- when some of the best WR effects are frowned on because they destroy all the things and you're 'strongly socially encouraged' to play Tier 2 effects in those colors, then of course they would appear less potent and thus slide in popularity. I would consider this a side-effect of the problem; strong RW plays are perceived as a violation of the spirit of the format, whereas broken UG things are more easily accepted up the chain. "Of course it's broken, it's Blue" is actually counter-productive here, because it's being used to permit plays on a level that are fundamentally much, much more powerful than Armageddon.

I enjoy EDH, but there are times when it is a scary example of what happens when casuals that don't bother to learn the finer points of the game are catered to.

As for whether or not the 'most right' colorshift for SP would be Red -- honestly, I think that where a card would land is less important than asking -- IF this card were in any other color, would it still be tolerable? It should not be the end-all, be-all of the discussion, but it seems like a fair thought experiment to help inform one's decision as to whether or not the effect itself is just intolerable. The card's ubiquity is not an independent variable; of course "Big Green" is viable in a format where people start cutting if the table lets Impending Disaster wheel; address the root issue, not a mitigating circumstance.

Perhaps it's asking too much, but honestly if you're going to start self-moderating, you have to be willing to entertain changes in the metagame which allow cards to return to your format. If more groups would re-examine the effects they permit on, like, a 6-month basis or whatever, like maybe they would find that allowing Geddon and friends to hold Green Giant at bay means that more interesting things on a lower curve start showing up. Every once in a while we have these same "what-ifs" in Legacy, where people test their Necropotence / Hermit Druid / Windfall "what-if" list to see if hate has evolved to a place where that card can and should come off the banned list. Whether or not it does is another story, but at least the concept is being regularly challenged.

[phonics]

EDH: You are either trying to do broken ass stuff or you are trying to stop your opponents from doing broken ass stuff.

[FTW]

Mana Crypt is legal, but a 7 mana green creature is banned.

Ya... OK - this format is a joke.

EDIT: I didn't just come in here to say EDH is a casual only format. But rather, that the perceived threat of Sylvan Primordial is somehow more important to ban than the best accelerator in the format. I don't think I've ever encountered a game in which I led with Mana Crypt and did not win (in 1v1 play).

Mana Crypt has been banned for ages in 1v1 play. If you play 1v1 EDH with a competitively-built deck but follow the multiplayer EDH banlist instead of the 1v1 banlist (either French or MTGS), then you're just being a dick. The 1v1 list bans cards like Mana Crypt but not cards like Prime Time and Sylvan for the very reasons you describe. The aforementioned banning is for multiplayer.

Also, power level can be relative to number of players. Games with many players take longer, making it much easier to cast a 7-mana fatty. Even if it dies immediately, a resolved Sylvan generates +6 cards in a 4-player pod. That's a lot of card advantage to tack onto a big body. Although I think Sylvan is really abusive because multiplayer EDH attracts "big bomby" decks and Sylvan makes those matchups very very asymmetrical: you simultaneously ramp into your bombs while stopping opponents from ramping into theirs.

IMO Prime Time was banned more because you can do stupid things like tutor Wasteland + Strip Mine with Crucible out in your Azusa deck and then triple Striplock people FTquit. Or grab Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi Temple/Gaea's Cradle and drop Eldrazi for the next 2-3 turns. Or Cabal Coffers + Urborg. Or Inkmoth Nexus + Pendelhaven. Or Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage. Or whatever. You can even grab Yavimaya's Hollow to regenerate it from future Wrath effects or Volrath's Stronghold to reuse it. In a format where people often maindeck Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying and friends, tutoring for 2 nonbasic lands a turn is crazy.

[FTW]

Sylvan Primordial would get played in almost every red deck ever if only because it destroys enchantments, and that's something red is sorely lacking the ability to do.

However, one wrinkle in this thought experiment is that not all colors are equally popular. The effect of Sylvan Primordial - blow up three lands (or sometimes nonlands), ramp - is powerful in the abstract. It would be less oppressive in white, red, or black if only because white, red, and black seem to show up less often than green. Actually, it would still be oppressive in black, since it's now in the same color as efficient tutors and reanimation spells and it makes Coffers gross early in the game.

I think it would be a lot less oppressive in red and white because those colors have a harder time ramping out fatties (Assuming it wasn't printed as an Angel, Demon or Dragon). 7-mana red and white creatures generally don't scare the pants off people no matter how powerful they are. Green can T2 Natural Order* or GSZ into it or just plain ramp into it. I think it would be pretty abusive in black too with all of black's tutoring and reanimation.

*I once cast Natural Order on turn 1. It was a bit convoluted, involving Mana Crypt, Sol Ring and Azusa as commander. But still!
Needless to say I was so excited I could do it I didn't stop to think I was at a loss for tutor targets... Terastodon and Sylvan Primordial are backbreaking early game but not when opponents have ZERO lands. Oops. Grabbed Vorinclex instead and they still quit.

[TsumiBand]

Mana Crypt has been banned for ages in 1v1 play. If you play 1v1 EDH with a competitively-built deck but follow the multiplayer EDH banlist instead of the 1v1 banlist (either French or MTGS), then you're just being a dick. The 1v1 list bans cards like Mana Crypt but not cards like Prime Time and Sylvan for the very reasons you describe. The aforementioned banning is for multiplayer.

Also, power level can be relative to number of players. Games with many players take longer, making it much easier to cast a 7-mana fatty. Even if it dies immediately, a resolved Sylvan generates +6 cards in a 4-player pod. That's a lot of card advantage to tack onto a big body. Although I think Sylvan is really abusive because multiplayer EDH attracts "big bomby" decks and Sylvan makes those matchups very very asymmetrical: you simultaneously ramp into your bombs while stopping opponents from ramping into theirs.

IMO Prime Time was banned more because you can do stupid things like tutor Wasteland + Strip Mine with Crucible out in your Azusa deck and then triple Striplock people FTquit. Or grab Eye of Ugin + Eldrazi Temple/Gaea's Cradle and drop Eldrazi for the next 2-3 turns. Or Cabal Coffers + Urborg. Or Inkmoth Nexus + Pendelhaven. Or Dark Depths + Thespian's Stage. Or whatever. You can even grab Yavimaya's Hollow to regenerate it from future Wrath effects or Volrath's Stronghold to reuse it. In a format where people often maindeck Expedition Map, Sylvan Scrying and friends, tutoring for 2 nonbasic lands a turn is crazy.

Your Prime-Time example brings up an interesting parallel between PT and, say, Tooth and Nail. There are a fuck-billion ways to just end the game with T&N, or Victimize, or anything that puts two permanents into play from an accessible zone. Because PT does it "on a stick" I can see why it would get axed, but in this format of 2-card hyper combo finishes, there should be a very critical eye hanging over any effect that can selectively* put multiple cards with different text into one zone from another one.

On a more relevant note though, has this idea ever been floated… has anyone ever suggested different banlists for higher player-count games?

Like say 1v1 follows French, up to 3v3 follows "List A", 4v4+ follows "List B" and so on. When Sylvan Primordial crushes six opponents for six Forest cards and creates a 12-card swing without actually Wrathing the board, I can understand it being nothing but trouble. But really, in a 4v4 game, I have seen lots of people cast it and go on to fail. Shit, I took a bitch out on principle because he was playing like Mimeoplasm or whatever and kept blowing up all my Vernal Bloom/Mana Echoes/all the mana-doubling things in my Wort TRM deck -- twice with Sylvan Primordial IIRC -- and really for no reason at all, as the other players at the table were representing far bigger threats than I had been. So I went in big; I overextended into a bunch of hasty guys and alpha'd his dumb-ass out first, and then proceeding to systematically eliminate the rest of the table. IIRC it was a 5v5 game at that, so the rule of "Who's Scariest Third" went right out the winda.

I mean I hate to suggest more complexity instead of less, but really there are so many cards that naturally scale in this fashion anyway -- the very multi-friendly Syphon Mind/Soul cards only get better with more players, however in a 4v4 matchup they are terrible topdecks late in the game so they don't really scale well. And as illustrated, things like Sundering Titan, Primeval Titan, Sylvan Primordial, etc… more players = moar cards = moar swingy blowouts. Like when someone cashes in a ton of Risk cards at the end of the game after they've effectively lost; in my experience this rarely changes the winner of the game, it just slows things waaaay down and turns a decisive win into a limping game state.

* - ffft no I don't mean like Brainstorm or Inspiration or that dumb stuff. Selectively roughly meaning "as a tutor" not "as a draw spell". So, you might Brainstorm and whiff, however you don't T&N for two randoms, you get Thing One and Thing Two and then you wreck Dakota Fanning's fucking house with them.

[FTW]

Because PT does it "on a stick" I can see why it would get axed, but in this format of 2-card hyper combo finishes, there should be a very critical eye hanging over any effect that can selectively* put multiple cards with different text into one zone from another one.

Fair points.

I guess selectivity is a restriction, but I'd argue that
a) repeatability
b) ease of use
combined both overpower the selectivity, at least in the case of Prime Time.

Why Survival of the Fittest is more abusive than Diabolic Tutor.

Green creatures are remarkably easy to cheat onto the battlefield, easier to tutor for and protect in green decks than a sorcery. ETB triggers can be repeated and abused in a number of ways, and it has its own built in reusing trigger. All in all, it's much easier to get PrimeTime off than to resolve a Tooth and Nail. So yes, T&N is obviously more backbreaking when resolved, but PrimeTime represents a more consistent engine IMO.

One of my favorite (and cheapest) commander decks was Azusa ramp. At first, the main win conditions were Cloudstone Curio+Aluren infinite combos, other mana combos+tokens, and massive Genesis Waves. But soon the main plan became T2-T4 Prime Time FTW, usually via Eldrazi or manascrewing people. Either way, the early PrimeTime from the ramp deck tended to draw all sorts of groans.

When that got the axe, I shifted to a Sylvan Primordial plan. Previously, if I was lucky enough to T2-3 Natural Order, I would go for Terastodon and piss everyone off by blowing up lands and attacking with a fatty. But at least they got elephants. With Sylvan Primordial printed, I could instead blow up a key land from each of them AND ramp myself a hell of a lot AND not give them elephant tokens. Seems good.

I would support separate banlists depending on group size. A 3-player EDH game is very different from a 7-player EDH game.