Brainstorm
Force of Will
Lion's Eye Diamond
Counterbalance
Sensei's Divining Top
Tarmogoyf
Phyrexian Dreadnaught
Goblin Lackey
Standstill
Natural Order
Good point.Originally Posted by catmint
I believe that the format isn't healthy right now. Health of a format is an opinion and very much a gray area though.
I know your feelings on TNN. And maybe if I had an avatar or something, you'd remember mine (until recently, not a big supporter of it, and now only as part of a package to remove blue's aggro game) because I've stated the first part repeatedly. However, that's not really important.
But your conversation with Drago on the color/strategy composition of the top tier fundamentally turns on whether blue gets to keep Delver and TNN, because that's what generates the overlap between strategies and blue's ubiquity in top 8s. The very fact that blue gets the most powerful card drawing and library manipulation means that, as TsumiBand pointed out, even its marginally efficient creatures are likely to be good enough to warrant playing. Giving it 3/x flyers for U and TNN is asking for what has happened to happen.
The problem is Wizards love affair with creatures, not some preference for blue. As testing and HSCK pointed out, they've probably got tons of survey data showing that their major customers, almost all of whom are kitchen-table players, hate countermagic which is why all recent counters have sucked and even Mana Leak is by their own admission undesirable in Modern. To appease their main source of revenue, they'be had to push blue creatures while still keeping blue's existing flavor, which still hinges on things like draw and manipulation. They can (and usually do) mitigate this in standard and to a lesser extent in Modern by giving other colors enough equally powerful, on flavor cards that can offset blue's advantages or that capitalize on other colors' existing strengths such as black's creature removal. In Legacy, we've already got Bolt and Swords, but those aren't enough when Delver and TNN are backed up by Brainstorm, Ponder, Force, Daze, and Spell Pierce, all of which were fine before the threats became on-color.
So, in your opinion, when was the format healthy?
It's a sliding scale so there isn't really a single point but I thought it was really well balanced a little over a year ago. Best decks were rug, miracles, stoneblade, maverick, goblins, elves, merfolk, sneak attack and storm. Brainstorm and delver are still there but with no where near the penetration they have now.
Brainstorm aside, delver appeared in a fifth to a fourth of all gp paris day-two decklists. That doesn't seem good either.
If that's your reasoning blue and brown will always be inherently imbalanced
The format was pretty good right before Flash was un-errated, before Mystical Tutor was banned, and before Vengevine was printed. It wasn't even bad right before Delver was printed.
If I could do anything with the format besides banning Brainstorm I'd probably change it to something like:
Out:
Show and Tell
Griselbrand
Delver of Secrets
True-Name Nemesis
Vengevine
In:
Black Vise
Survival of the Fittest
Earthcraft
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I think it's also pretty obviously specious to say, "If you ban Brainstorm, you have to also ban Force," and then five seconds later complain that if you weaken blue combo will take over.
It is not a very subtle trap.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
I could agree with this list minus Delver of Secrets, which would now not matter in such a metagame. I would play this shit out of this format.
West side
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Perhaps I'm misunderstanding you here, but which tools exist in which colors and at what level of playability is basically a fundamental indicator of whether or not the game is balanced.
It is precisely when a color is allowed to shore up its weaknesses by giving it tools which the other colors are allegedly intended to be superior in, that an imbalance occurs. It does matter that Delver of Secrets is Blue, because Blue's wheelhouse is not intended to include a one-drop that rivals Red, White or Green in terms of its application in the combat phase. I'm not talking about vagaries of application of 'tricksy' Blue one-drops that have abilities which are "arguably as good as swinging for 3"; Delver is a beater. It is a 3-power flyer for U, supported by a color which optimizes its ability to transform regularly such that it is more surprising if/when it does NOT transform.
The color recognition matters, because it moves successful aggro strategies away from their intended colors and into a color which already has strengths in arenas that are supposed to be compensated for in a dearth of combat proficiency. The more Blue Delvers there are, the less need "good aggro" has to look at Green or White or Red.
This doesn't just affect beaters, either; as people are fond of pointing out, the metagame defines itself in terms of gravity. We are anchored to staples, which pull us in different directions depending on which staples have the most appeal. Creating aggro appeal in Blue means that colors with aggro staples look less attractive on the whole; as such the rest of the drawing points of those colors start chalking up downvotes. It's like having your property devalued when your neighbor lets his place go to shit; if the Red neighborhood is centered around, FOR EXAMPLE and not based on anything real - let's go with Goblin Guide? And then a Blue variant comes out which proves itself to be as playable as Goblin Guide, suddenly Lightning Bolt is less desirable.
Why? Because Blue's existing infrastructure lends itself to already be game-breaking, by drawing more game pieces (cards) and manipulating more game pieces (again cards ) than just "doing 3 to something". Why splash for that Lightning Bolt when I can already flip Delver with Blue spells, play 'fake Blue Goblin Guide' with mono-Islands, and then just defend my card choices by playing counters and Brainstorms? So Red spells have that much less of a hook, and they become slightly more 'stranded'. Stranded, in the sense of something like Quiet Speculation; a card which has plenty of potential because of what it does, but just doesn't really have a home where it isn't just obviated.
It would take a *lot* of color-bending for Lightning Bolt and friends to become 'stranded' in this way - and remember I just picked Goblin Guide as an example, because it's arguably incredibly un-Blue (it has Haste, is a 2/2 for 1, and gives your opponent more card advantage than it probably gives you). But feed enough aggro tools to the color that hacks the Matrix, and one starts losing arguments in favor of those aggressive colors and everything they bring to the table.
What brought me to Legacy back in 2006 or 2007, was the fact that the usual deck was cheap, field was stable and both were reasonable.
One of the very first decks I built was UGW Thresh and it cost 10 000 CZK (maybe less, it was before Goyf) which was something like 500 USD. I'm talking about the deck with three Tundras, three Trops, maybe a Savannah and a set of FoWs.
Now, I know that the prices are that high because of people's interest in game (and Legacy), but still: I'm not happy that I'm priced out of the game. (Yeah, I may keep the stuff, but what's the point of sitting on it when I know I will never buy the Next Level Jace or Liliana of Even Darker Realms or any other $350 future card for the future decks.)
What I liked about Legacy was that one could play the same deck for quite some time without changing it drastically, and that the power level was not so high and thus the good ol' decks were viable. I top8ed my very first bigger Legacy tournament (some time around 2006/7) with an Ice Age - 5th Edition - Weatherlight Type II remake. Not that I mourn the lost, and Legacy is better with good decks instead of 5CG Oldtimer, but I feel like the field radically changes twice a year, while the decks are becoming more and more bomby. It's like when you mix Vintage and Legacy: there are bombs (like in Vintage) and the metagame is swingy (like in Legacy). But I may be wrong, I don't play Vintage and maybe it's not that bomby (and stationary) as I think.
I'm sorry of all those nice old cards that have no home anywhere, ever since Legacy became defined by overpowered stuff (Goyf, Jace, you name it). I'd love to play Wildfire Emissary and Stampeding Wildebeests and River Boa and Rancor and Armadillo Cloak and Armagedon and Erhnam Djinn and... IDK, Mystic Enforcer or Werebear. But as long as their only relevant home is Legacy (unless you got a thriving casual group), and this format is full of Jaces and Goyfs, it's not surprising that these cards rot in boxes, because they can't compete with the new design.
So, from my point of view, it'll be nice if the format returned back in time a bit. I'm not sure if banning Brainstorm would be good/enough - I guess it wouldn't hurt - but from the set of the most annoying/op cards I could name several that I would never shed a tear for: Griselbrand, TNN, possibly Delver (yep, it would weaken my only remaining deck, but I can live with it), maybe Show and Tell (depends how powerful it would be without Grislebrand) and it looks like time has come for BS too.
That was a solid meta. If I'm remembering correctly the top decks were zoo, merfolk, goblins, new horizons, rock, storm and counterbalance. Right before mental misstep was printed was also fairly healthy.
Since that time the printing of Delver, Snapcaster, Emrakul/Gris and TNN has pushed blue over the top. You can unload all of those or the best card in decks that run those cards.
Why Vise? It won't add anything positive to the format, and has a good chance of making games worse. Especially one of the most interesting aspects of the game - turning bad keeps around and translating them into a win. Vise actively makes that near impossible. Even if it just replaces Delver in tempo, it's harder to deal with, which just seems bad.
I'd love that format sans Vise, maybe with Delver.
Hello,
can you please be honsest an quit the hiding game? you arenot wanting a balanced format, and in my opinion that is not required. you want your
pet deck win a torunement without thinking about the flaws and drawbacks like lack of efficiency etc. This is perfectly displayed here:
But this is not necessary if you want to play your old decks do it and have fun but donīt expect to win tournements with them. If you wnat to win you play the best cards and decks aviabale and not demanding a banBed Decks Palyer
What brought me to Legacy back in 2006 or 2007, was the fact that the usual deck was cheap, field was stable and both were reasonable.
One of the very first decks I built was UGW Thresh and it cost 10 000 CZK (maybe less, it was before Goyf) which was something like 500 USD. I'm talking about the deck with three Tundras, three Trops, maybe a Savannah and a set of FoWs.
Now, I know that the prices are that high because of people's interest in game (and Legacy), but still: I'm not happy that I'm priced out of the game. (Yeah, I may keep the stuff, but what's the point of sitting on it when I know I will never buy the Next Level Jace or Liliana of Even Darker Realms or any other $350 future card for the future decks.)
What I liked about Legacy was that one could play the same deck for quite some time without changing it drastically, and that the power level was not so high and thus the good ol' decks were viable. I top8ed my very first bigger Legacy tournament (some time around 2006/7) with an Ice Age - 5th Edition - Weatherlight Type II remake. Not that I mourn the lost, and Legacy is better with good decks instead of 5CG Oldtimer, but I feel like the field radically changes twice a year, while the decks are becoming more and more bomby. It's like when you mix Vintage and Legacy: there are bombs (like in Vintage) and the metagame is swingy (like in Legacy). But I may be wrong, I don't play Vintage and maybe it's not that bomby (and stationary) as I think.
I'm sorry of all those nice old cards that have no home anywhere, ever since Legacy became defined by overpowered stuff (Goyf, Jace, you name it). I'd love to play Wildfire Emissary and Stampeding Wildebeests and River Boa and Rancor and Armadillo Cloak and Armagedon and Erhnam Djinn and... IDK, Mystic Enforcer or Werebear. But as long as their only relevant home is Legacy (unless you got a thriving casual group), and this format is full of Jaces and Goyfs, it's not surprising that these cards rot in boxes, because they can't compete with the new design.
So, from my point of view, it'll be nice if the format returned back in time a bit. I'm not sure if banning Brainstorm would be good/enough - I guess it wouldn't hurt - but from the set of the most annoying/op cards I could name several that I would never shed a tear for: Griselbrand, TNN, possibly Delver (yep, it would weaken my only remaining deck, but I can live with it), maybe Show and Tell (depends how powerful it would be without Grislebrand) and it looks like time has come for BS too.
because inferiro cards are not played.
So the demand to ban Brainstorm just displays that you are just trying to justify your lack of aception that your pet deck is just bad and some cards have to be replaced to do better.
By the way there are competitive non Blue decks so you donīt have to play Blue or go home but have to except hat it will not be easy to win.
So please do me a favor before you continue this stupid flame war, try to think if you realy want inconsitency over consistency in your tournement games, this includes more land flood/ scew etc.
or if your want your game decided by skill only and not luck.
Also be honest and ask if you just want to play your pet deck in a tournement and expect to win despite the fact that it could be inconsistent or just bad in the current format.
Best Regards Teveshszat
This
New Phyrexia was a good set for Legacy - sure, Mental Misstep was a calculated fuck-up of Wizards, but at least they had the decency to fix it asap.
But then it went all to hell, starting with Innistrad. Delver was a huge mistake and Snapcaster is quite strong as well. This IS the point where the massive shift towards blue started.
The next fuck-up then came along with Avacyn Restored - Griselbanned is the better version of a card on the Banned list. And whoever came up with the Miracles mechanic should be mercilessly beaten to death with a rusty, dirty toilet brush. Some people argue that Brainstorm's powerlevel never changed since the release of fetchlands - WRONG. Delver, Snapcaster and Miracles all increased Brainstorm's power level significantly. You can't just look at a card in the vacuum. Survival was also fine until Vengevine entered the format.
But Wizards didn't stop there. Omniscience is a a goddamn Unglued card in terms of design. Of course they had to print Enter the Infinite immediately afterwards. Ever asked yourself why X is 0 when spells are cast for free? To prevent horse crap like Enter the Infinite. Wizards dropped the ball on this one - hard.
While DRS was powerful, let's not forget it finally solved the massive GY abuse that plagued the format for years alongside with RiP.
Ever since, we've entered stagnation because Wizards can't be arsed anymore to print cards that don't suck after RtR. Instead, we get the same cards for twice the cost. AAA design right there.
TNN has been discussed to death - it should have been white and never been printed in the first place. Hexproof + evasion is bad? Let's print that, just better! Another job for the rusty, dirty toilet brush.
As far as IBA's suggestion is concerned, I like it. My take on it:
Out:
Show and Tell
Griselbrand
Delver of Secrets
True-Name Nemesis
(Vengevine)
(Necrotic Ooze)
In:
(Black Vise)
Mind Twist
(Survival of the Fittest)
Earthcraft
People love Survival. I wouldn't mind a comeback. But if it comes back, Ooze also has to go since it was also part of the reason why it got banned - just saying. Not sure about Black Vise.
Delver MUST go. It's one of the main reaons everything went haywire. Blue must not have access to the best creatures since it already has the best of everything else.
I know English isn't your first language, but do you really not have any kind of spellcheck? Well, regardless, I am going to try and decipher your post.
You seem to be saying that people are being dishonest; they don't want to play other decks, they want to play other decks and win with them.
But this is already implicit in, say, "I want a format where I can play non-blue decks."
A game where you can choose X or Y but Y will always lose is a game where for all game-purposes Y does not exist. People do not like losing at games.
The question of what strategies should exist in a format while allowing you a reasonable chance to win isn't hidden; it's axiomatic.
If you're going to insult people for not explicating what anyone with a brain would take as a given, you might not want to accuse them of being the ones waging a "stupid flame war."So the demand to ban Brainstorm just displays that you are just trying to justify your lack of aception that your pet deck is just bad and some cards have to be replaced to do better.
By the way there are competitive non Blue decks so you donīt have to play Blue or go home but have to except hat it will not be easy to win.
So please do me a favor before you continue this stupid flame war, try to think if you realy want inconsitency over consistency in your tournement games, this includes more land flood/ scew etc.
or if your want your game decided by skill only and not luck.
As for games with Brainstorm being "decided by skill only and not luck," I don't even know where to start with your delusions.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
Also yes I forgot Mind Twist. That should definitely get unbanned.
I don't really have a particular problem with banning Necrotic Ooze I guess. I just want Survival back.
I think Delver and TNN are the minimum of what should be banned if Brainstorm isn't. Blue shouldn't have top of the line beatsticks. But yeah, dumb insta-win cards like Griselbrand, Omniscience etc., haven't added much to the game.
If you guys want real mental whiplash, read this article about designing Nicol Bolas.
I guess they stopped inviting Doug Beyer onto development teams when he ruined the party.On the other hand, though, a card that just says "Pay some mana: you win the game" is actually not all that interesting a card. Powerful, sure, but such a card wouldn't actually give you the feeling of summoning the awesome power of Nicol Bolas to your side. Some early incarnations of the card were like thisthey didn't inspire awe and dread; they just inspired shuffling up for the next game.
Developer 1: Hold on, don't concede yet, let me beat you up with Nicol Bolas for a while! I want to build up to his ultimate.
Developer 2: Um, Bolas's "plus" ability is already game over for me, thanksanother?
You want Bolas to be a devastating force on the board without making the board irrelevant. You want your opponent's shoulders to slump when the dragon planeswalker appears out of the swirling Grixis sky, and sure, a little groaning would be nice. But strangely enough, you actually want there to be a glimmer of hope, so that Bolas can actually flex his wings, cast some spells for you, and generally have enough time to do some horrible things to your enemy. Then victory at the dragon's side is exquisitely satisfying.
For my confessions, they burned me with fire/
And found I was for endurance made
This so hard. Instead of printing shitty situational blue hate garbage like: Great Sable Stag, Silklasher, Spirit of the Labyrinth. They could just print more powerful card in those colors. Decay was a strong nod towards that. The unfortunate thing being that Blue Decks adopted the card.
Yep. They need to print good non-blue cards that can't be used in blue decks. Thalia is a great example. Bloodbraid Elf is another. More cards like that and less cards like Skylasher.
I'm not certain Vengevine matters that much now. It's kind of an all in way to play SotF. Triggers can be responded to, getting them Surgicaled or DRSed is a beating. It's also not really a faster kill than an average elves goldfish. GSZ / NO for Hoof is just as fast if not faster. I'd be fine with just unbanning some stuff and seeing if BS still had 90% penetration as a 4 of.
Edit: I was also going to say, you have to play a deck with 3-4 Vengevines and 2-3 Basking Rootwallas which are pretty awful as standalone cards. Then I remembered you can just Brainstorm them away.
But that's the fate of every good card that a) isn't symmetrical and screwing over blue or b) having a very niche use like GSZ.
Thalia is one of the very few things they got right in that regard.
As far as Survival is concerned: I'm going to make an extra poll regarding that one to see what people's opinion is on.
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