All B/R update speculation.

[HammafistRoob]

How about if they gave some incentive to actually play basic lands? We need more viable mono colored decks so people can actually compete with budget decks again. Anything that could help the format grow is a plus, and as some have already pointed out, having such huge demand for blue duals is going to severely hurt us in the future.

[Barook]

Survival poll is now up. Feel free to vote.

How about if they gave some incentive to actually play basic lands? We need more viable mono colored decks so people can actually compete with budget decks again. Anything that could help the format grow is a plus, and as some have already pointed out, having such huge demand for blue duals is going to severely hurt us in the future.

Problem is that the utility lands for mono-colored decks are getting more expensive, too. Port is currently seeing a huge price jump and Wasteland (a staple for mono-colored decks) is quite pricey as well. Playing without utility lands is a bad idea.

[btm10]

I'd be fine with just unbanning some stuff and seeing if BS still had 90% penetration as a 4 of.

This is the best suggestion that's been made yet.

[HammafistRoob]

True, but I think 1000 dollar decks are pretty budget by todays standards.

[Dzra]

I don't really have a particular problem with banning Necrotic Ooze I guess. I just want Survival back.

IBA and I agree on something!

[Zombie]

https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazi...e/worlds10/tm1

See Utter-Leyton's list. (Search for 14 Forest).

I want it back

[Zilla]

I'll jump on the unban a bunch of stuff, ban TNN/Delver train.

I'm anti-Brainstorm ban because I think Brainstorm makes games more interesting by making all strategies (aggro-control, control, combo) more consistent. It's very fun to play with, and not especially unfun to play against.

If blue's dominance is a concern (which I agree it is to a some extent) then it makes a hell of a lot more sense to hit the things that are completely outside of its slice of the color pie (Delver/TNN) as a means of curtailing its dominance. It's always been the best support color thanks to Brainstorm, but now it's the best primary color as well thanks to its unprecedentedly amazing creatures. Let it keep doing what it does best as a color and take away the tools it's not supposed to have, imo.

As an aside, I'd love to see a functional reprint of Delver in red, which makes so much more sense flavor-wise and color-balance-wise.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

How about if they gave some incentive to actually play basic lands? We need more viable mono colored decks so people can actually compete with budget decks again. Anything that could help the format grow is a plus, and as some have already pointed out, having such huge demand for blue duals is going to severely hurt us in the future.

Yeh, that's it. Also, it'll be nice if there'd be a reason to play non-dual duals, like painlands and such. I got only Sundering Titan in mind, but if there'd be something similar that would make "(Karplusan) Forest, go" a possible deck, I wouldn't cry.
There's a trouble with the price of utuility lands, as already noted. Elves are not really budget deck when Cradle costs more than some Bad(dual)land.

Hello,

can you please be honsest an quit the hiding game? you arenot wanting a balanced format, and in my opinion that is not required. you want your
pet deck win a torunement without thinking about the flaws and drawbacks like lack of efficiency etc. This is perfectly displayed here:

Please, improve your posts, they're worse than mine and that says a lot.
On the idea of "you want to win with your pet deck"; even if it would be my claim, why exactly would it be bad? So you really think that 95%BS_deck.meta is what we should work towards?

But this is not necessary if you want to play your old decks do it and have fun but don´t expect to win tournements with them. If you wnat to win you play the best cards and decks aviabale and not demanding a ban
because inferiro cards are not played.

can you please be honsest an quit the hiding game? you arenot wanting a balanced format, and in my opinion that is not required. you want "play blue or gtfo."

So the demand to ban Brainstorm just displays that you are just trying to justify your lack of aception that your pet deck is just bad and some cards have to be replaced to do better.
By the way there are competitive non Blue decks so you don´t have to play Blue or go home but have to except hat it will not be easy to win.

but I don't want to ban Brainstorm just that I may play Stampeding Wildebeests. I wrote that I miss those cards, and that there was a time when similar cards were playable in Classic Restricted / Legacy. Banning Brainstorm wouldn't catapult Wildebeests back into tournament scene, nor it would bring back Wildfire Emissary. But only few years ago there was a time (and decks) when (and where) cards like FTK, Mystic Enforcer, Troll Ascetic, [insert combat critter here] were played in successful decks. Today we got these creature-spells and spell-creatures and flyinglifelink Bargain and "omnomnom seven" and such (together with other insane stuff and Un-cards like EtI and Omniderp) that changed this format into Vintage-like bomby environment without actually being a Vintage-like stable environment.
I never ever in my seventeen years in Magic had a chance to play my pet decks. I was lazy and poor kid back in high school and I hated value trades (read: stealing) and such, so I never had a chance to play any deck I liked in any non-trivial/casual setting. In Legacy, I was able to live again the high school times, but now with the money. It was a pleasure to build 5CG and Top8, I loved to port Extended Haterator and Top8, I remember petting my first UWG deck for years until it was finally outclassed, etc. Why is your wish to play BS and Grisly more legitimate than my wish to play Armageddon and Mystic Enforcer? Why should every winning deck pac Omniderp and Griselherp? Why, instead of being decided by REAL skill (and real combat phase), games should be deicided by coin/SnT/Delver flip and by the number of in-game mulligans made by BS?

I don't really want Erhnam Djinn back (although it'll be hillarious) and I never seriously thought anyone would seriously thought I thought it seriously. And I also don't expect Erhnam to be relevant any time soon. (Nor late.) But the mere fact that just a few years ago there was a semi-serious thread right here on this site considering an Erhnam.dec and ppl actually were interested in tinkering with the idea, says a lot about the direction this format took. Hint: such a thread would be dead in a minute today.

Ok, maybe this game is all about transforming Delvers, drawing 7/14/21 cards per turn or resolving any other nonsensical stuff, but seriously, can we at least discuss some other possibilities?

So please do me a favor before you continue this stupid flame war, try to think if you realy want inconsitency over consistency in your tournement games, this includes more land flood/ scew etc.
or if your want your game decided by skill only and not luck.
Also be honest and ask if you just want to play your pet deck in a tournement and expect to win despite the fact that it could be inconsistent or just bad in the current format.

But we're not against consistency per se. We're agianst (unnecessary) brokeness. And not everybody, some pppl (like me, for example) are undecided.
Btw, there are other possible views of consistency than just "add BS, stir up and bring to boil". you do understand that on a very basic base, a deck with 15 playsets is similarly consistent as deck with different 15 playsets? what BS does, though, is bringing the in-game consistency of any deck to very high level - some ppl even think a "too high" level - because it adds a feature that isn't inherent to a game of Magic and wasn't thought about and included into the ruels: a partial in-game mulligans. I know there will be lots of flak because of the incoming sentence but I consider BS being occasionally better than Ancestral Recall, because Recall (while definitely much more powerful and hardly ever conditional), can't put that Progenitus/DSK back to your library so that you may Tinker/Order him, and it also cannot throw away the cards that stop you from comboing with IT and w/e other idea you may come with.
Brainstorm's problem is twofold, first, it makes post-mulligan mulligans possible and second, there are too many bomby cards available (at least since 2011) that turned this format a bit crazy, so BS is on the verge of becoming the similar troublesome card as it was in Vintage before its restriction. If "pay on turn 2, pass" is too powerful for Legacy (and is a reason to ban SotF), than I can't imagine why "BS, fetch, unmull; Bs fetch unmull further; win now" is any more healthy. Prove me wrong.

And... I'm still not sure if I want BS gone. (And definitely not because I'm delusional enough to think that such a ban might resuscitate the cmc4 dudes of Mirage block. Last time I checked, Nettletooth Djinn can't stop ToA.) I like my onemana cantrip. But I like Legacy (and Magic in general) more than BS. See, if the choice is between Legacy without BS and BS without Legacy, I prefer the remaining 56 cards.

/rant

Post-rant: Goyf is just a bear. An efficient one, and maybe one that should be axed to make other bears viable, but still just a bear. I like it and I think it's not that deadly for format's diversity as BS is. Shame they spoiled the guy, if it started with */*, everything would be fine...


EDIT: Zilla's post above, I like it.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I'll jump on the unban a bunch of stuff, ban TNN/Delver train.

I'm anti-Brainstorm ban because I think Brainstorm makes games more interesting by making all strategies (aggro-control, control, combo) more consistent. It's very fun to play with, and not especially unfun to play against.

If blue's dominance is a concern (which I agree it is to a some extent) then it makes a hell of a lot more sense to hit the things that are completely outside of its slice of the color pie (Delver/TNN) as a means of curtailing its dominance. It's always been the best support color thanks to Brainstorm, but now it's the best primary color as well thanks to its unprecedentedly amazing creatures. Let it keep doing what it does best as a color and take away the tools it's not supposed to have, imo.

As an aside, I'd love to see a functional reprint of Delver in red, which makes so much more sense flavor-wise and color-balance-wise.

They could errata Delver to be red, Snapcaster to be black, TNN to be white and Show and Tell to be Green. That'd make a shitton more sense for both flavor and metagame purposes.

[Mewens]

A first-striking red Delver (b/c of pie, dontchaknow) + Young Pyromancer would be a deck core I could get excited about.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Actually it's a fair point from the other thread that if anything's broken with Survival it's probably Retainers/Griselbrand more than Ooze. I'm going to stick with TNN/Delver/SnT/Griselbrand as all getting the axe if we're not cutting the obvious #1 culprit... and honestly if we cut those four and get back Survival, Mind Twist, and I guess Earthcraft and Black Vise maybe? I'm fine with Brainstorm sticking around a bit longer at that point. Although I do think it's going to need banning sooner or later. But at least the format would be fun again.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

A first-striking red Delver (b/c of pie, dontchaknow) + Young Pyromancer would be a deck core I could get excited about.

Red really needs a second Faithless Looting and you could almost get away with not playing blue.

[catmint]

New Phyrexia was a good set for Legacy - sure, Mental Misstep was a calculated fuck-up of Wizards, but at least they had the decency to fix it asap.

But then it went all to hell, starting with Innistrad. Delver was a huge mistake and Snapcaster is quite strong as well. This IS the point where the massive shift towards blue started.

The next fuck-up then came along with Avacyn Restored - Griselbanned is the better version of a card on the Banned list. And whoever came up with the Miracles mechanic should be mercilessly beaten to death with a rusty, dirty toilet brush. Some people argue that Brainstorm's powerlevel never changed since the release of fetchlands - WRONG. Delver, Snapcaster and Miracles all increased Brainstorm's power level significantly. You can't just look at a card in the vacuum. Survival was also fine until Vengevine entered the format.

But Wizards didn't stop there. Omniscience is a a goddamn Unglued card in terms of design. Of course they had to print Enter the Infinite immediately afterwards. Ever asked yourself why X is 0 when spells are cast for free? To prevent horse crap like Enter the Infinite. Wizards dropped the ball on this one - hard.

While DRS was powerful, let's not forget it finally solved the massive GY abuse that plagued the format for years alongside with RiP.

Ever since, we've entered stagnation because Wizards can't be arsed anymore to print cards that don't suck after RtR. Instead, we get the same cards for twice the cost. AAA design right there.

TNN has been discussed to death - it should have been white and never been printed in the first place. Hexproof + evasion is bad? Let's print that, just better! Another job for the rusty, dirty toilet brush.

As far as IBA's suggestion is concerned, I like it. My take on it:

Out:
Show and Tell
Griselbrand
Delver of Secrets
True-Name Nemesis
(Vengevine)
(Necrotic Ooze)

In:
(Black Vise)
Mind Twist
(Survival of the Fittest)
Earthcraft

People love Survival. I wouldn't mind a comeback. But if it comes back, Ooze also has to go since it was also part of the reason why it got banned - just saying. Not sure about Black Vise.

Delver MUST go. It's one of the main reaons everything went haywire. Blue must not have access to the best creatures since it already has the best of everything else.

I like this post a lot. Points out wizards "fuck-ups" very well...

Altough I do enjoy the format a lot at the moment and I a can also get behind bannings/unbannings for the sake of change. We played a lot with delver and show and tell and if we talk about blue's dominance certainly Delver/TNN is a much better plays to start than brainstorm for the reasons others have pointed out.

However I think we have to be careful what we wish for. What I would not welcome is if the format turns into some "stall" of 2-3 best decks like we had it during the MM with Stoneblade/NO RUG or afterwards with Maverick/RUG/Stoneblade where basically everything else was Tier2. Without Delver I see SFM as a risk to become a fun killer because he simply dominates everything. Wouldn't "tempo" cease to exist without delver and wouldn't that mean the format turns into a couple of dominating midrange/control decks and some combo?

Also if Show & Tell is gone and graveyard decks are being hated out naturally it comes down to storm and elves as tier combo decks right? I can understand that people don't enjoy show&tell but could the reduction of combo diversity make it easier for fair decks to hate the remaining combo out which hurts the format diversity overall.

As I said - I can get behind undoing stupid cards, but I am a bit concerned of what the format might become.

[Higgs]

I'll jump on the unban a bunch of stuff, ban TNN/Delver train.

I'm anti-Brainstorm ban because I think Brainstorm makes games more interesting by making all strategies (aggro-control, control, combo) more consistent. It's very fun to play with, and not especially unfun to play against.

If blue's dominance is a concern (which I agree it is to a some extent) then it makes a hell of a lot more sense to hit the things that are completely outside of its slice of the color pie (Delver/TNN) as a means of curtailing its dominance. It's always been the best support color thanks to Brainstorm, but now it's the best primary color as well thanks to its unprecedentedly amazing creatures. Let it keep doing what it does best as a color and take away the tools it's not supposed to have, imo.

As an aside, I'd love to see a functional reprint of Delver in red, which makes so much more sense flavor-wise and color-balance-wise.

I agree with every single word of this post.

[Raystar]

I agree with every single word of this post.

Yep, Zilla for president :)

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

since I can´t tell you something i do´nt execute myself

can you please be honsest an quit the hiding game? you arenot wanting a balanced format, and in my opinion that is not required. you want "play blue or gtfo."

Yes I am a fan of blue cards and blue is my favorite color. Yes I love control decks and consitency. Yes I see how powerfull Brainstorm is and what it does but I don´t think that this is bad but good since it reduces the anoying times in tournements whne you lose to flood screw and bad draws.
No I don´t want unrealistic things like a balanced eternal format, pls concider that
we talk about all printed Magic cards here. To make it clear a balanced format is neither needed nor realistic.

What I want is that every player is honest and say if he want fun trhough playing with friends or fun trhough competition. The later will have not problem with Brainstorm because they favor
efficiency and consistency and the fun players just can decide to not play him.

Btw i was against the Surival ban but the reason was not the Surival as card but the Vengevine interaction. I also argued there that they should ban vengevine.

Best regards Teveshszat

[Arsenal]

To make it clear a balanced format is neither needed nor realistic.

A balanced format is most certainly needed if it expects to retain current players and attract new ones. And it's an entirely realistic goal to achieve through judicious use of the Banned List and new card printings. Why do you believe that having an lopsided format is needed, but a balanced one is not?

[Nielsie]

To make it clear a balanced format is neither needed nor realistic.

Please enlighten me: why do we need and have a banlist if this is the case?

Why can't I play workshops or moxes? Why can't I play Skullclamp? Afterall, you don't seem to want balance...

[DragoFireheart]

They could errata Delver to be red, Snapcaster to be black, TNN to be white and Show and Tell to be Green. That'd make a shitton more sense for both flavor and metagame purposes.

Have we learned nothing from Tarmogoyf? Sometimes green is a superior version of the color blue as it prevents you from discarding it to Force of Will and makes Red Elemental Blast / Pyroblast bad.

[HSCK]

A balanced format is most certainly needed if it expects to retain current players and attract new ones. And it's an entirely realistic goal to achieve through judicious use of the Banned List and new card printings. Why do you believe that having an lopsided format is needed, but a balanced one is not?

Is there any data that we aren't retaining players or that players are not coming in? Availability seems to be a far more pressing issue to growing Legacy.