Pox losing to Tempo RUG and combo decks? Winning against Dredge [da feq?!Originally Posted by Manroe
] Elvish Swarm, and Top Deck God-deck?!
I'm guessing your top decking was getting rocked as well. Learning from this experience my last tourney, I suppose instead of bringing in anti-sideboard sideboard cards [ala dredge and it's anti-gy hate], we should simply bring in board cards that dance around enemy hate.
For instance, I should have removed my cursed scrolls for my Tomby's when I smelled Leyline incoming. derp*In the past I'd run Ratchet Bomb and thought about Nevinyrral's Disk to deal with problems Pox would run into with non-creature/non-land permanents. Pithing needle their walkers is probably best. Even more so if they're gonna waste an Abrupt Decay on a needle instead of liliana :) Big report when I get home.
Here was my final list:Pox losing to Tempo RUG and combo decks? Winning against Dredge [da feq?!
I'm guessing your top decking was getting rocked as well. Learning from this experience my last tourney, I suppose instead of bringing in anti-sideboard sideboard cards [ala dredge and it's anti-gy hate], we should simply bring in board cards that dance around enemy hate.
For instance, I should have removed my cursed scrolls for my Tomby's when I smelled Leyline incoming. derp*
1 Nether Spirit
2 Thoughtseize
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Dark Ritual
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Innocent Blood
1 Toxic Deluge
4 Liliana of the Veil
2 Crucible of Worlds
2 Cursed Scroll
1 Nether Void
1 Night of Soul'd Betrayal
1 Entomb
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Mishra's Factory
10 Swamp
1 Cabal Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
SIDEBOARD:
2 Engineered Plague
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Extirpate
3 Pithing Needle
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Spinning Darkness
I don't have the most thorough details.. but it was just a weird weird day. The RUG delver matchup was vs Jeff Rasmussen. He was a total dbag. It was round one and judges were at the table 3 times. I had to appeal to a head judge because apparently no one understood what spinning darkness' alternate cost required. I won game one on a mull to 5 and he was crying about it.. we're talking like t1 entomb spirit, t2 sinkhole, then top-deck jesus mode into crucible and ghost quarter. G2 I mulled to 6 and he pretty much just beat me out of the gate with double delver and goyf and I had no way out. G3 was about as long and grindy as it gets, and I kind of boned myself. I Extirpated his brainstorms and nimble mongoose. Pretty much an open board (he had about 10 lands) and I had cursed scroll and I knew one of his two cards was a spell pierce due to an earlier delver trigger. I have an inquisition and I draw a Liliana. I inquisition him and he uses his THIRD misdirection of the game to take Lili, then top decks grip to blow up scroll, then ponders into goyf goyf delver. While I brick into lands. GG.
Dredge guy was inexperienced and I basically mulled into Leylines in g2 and g3 and he wasn't sure how to handle it.
I demolished elves. I remember Game 3 opening with Dark Ritual, Dark Ritual, Inquisition, NoSB. Game 2 I had nether void and cursed scroll lock.
The Belcher guy won the die roll, beat me turn one g1. I drew a hand of hymn, dark rit, deluge, nether void and 3x land and he beat me turn 1 again.
Miracles kid should have stomped me. This match was a s***-show as our game 1 took 35 minutes. Good thing we had a time extension.
Omnitell just wrecked me. I saw no discard but a hymn game 2 and he forced it. He killed me t3 both games.
Once you go Legacy...
Hello Pox players,
I was wondering if you guys discuss BG pox/loam here as well? Just asking since this thread seems more active and the original bg pox thread is kind of dead. I have a list I would like to share that I've been brewing for quite a while. Went to two local tourneys with my close to finalized build last week:
4-0 in a small weekly event, 4-2 in a monthly event..missing top 8 due to breakers.
Yes, BG Loam Pox appears here every now and then, please share! :)
Why thank you sir. My list is as follows:
//Lands
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
2 Dark Depths
2 Thespian's Stage
4 Verdant Catacombs
2 Barren Moor
1 Cabal Pit
4 Bayou
1 Swamp
2 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Forest
1 Scrubland
//Spells
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Liliana of the Veil
2 Crop Rotation
1 Raven's Crime
1 entomb
4 Life from the Loam
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Smallpox
3 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Living Wish
//Sideboard
1 Dark Depths
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Orzhov Pontiff
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Krosan Grip
3 Vampire Hexmage
3 Thoughtseize
2 extirpate
In the weekly tournament that I went 4-0, I beat Miracles (2-1), Grixis Delver (2-0), RUG Delver (2-0), Jund Depths (2-0).
In the monthly tournament (4-2 record) I faced: Miracles (2-0), Shardless BUG (1-2), LED Dredge (2-1), Jund Depths (2-0), Miracles (0-2), Maverick (2-0).
Some notes on the decklist:
- I was playing 2 raven's crime, but I currently switched one out with entomb to be loam #5, a land tutor if I have loam already, or raven's crime #2. I should probably mention I do not like Jund Depths and how it goes all in on the graveyard which is why I don't play bad cards like nether spirit.
- Top is absolutely INSANE in this list. It helps me find what I need really easily as I can dredge away the top 3 if I don't like what I see. For instance consider this line of play that occurs very often: EOT Top. Fetch. Top again. Untap, dredge away the top 3. Main phase top. During a tournament, someone tried to deathrite away my loam and in response I stopped it by drawing with top. It protects loam really well. Top also makes the deck rely less on the graveyard. I generally side out 1-2 loams vs miracles.
- I try to keep the Living Wish targets to a minimum. Maze of Ith sometimes makes an appearance but right now I like killing dorks with pontiff.
- After months of testing, I've decided that 2 crop rotation is the right number.
- I don't want to see more than 1 smallpox too early so I have that at 3.
- Delver decks are a Bye.
- Combo is probably a poor matchup but I've won many matches off land denial (smallpox, wasteland) and hymn/raven's crime. I still need to test vs Sneak/Show
- All hexmages come in vs combo for the faster kill to compliment early discard and finish the game quickly. Two hexmages come in vs miracles, shardless bug since they answer planeswalkers very well. Two hexmages can also come in vs decks without swords to plowshares or if you expect lots of graveyard hate like RIP.
You're a loam deck. You use your GY FAR more than we Nether Spirit users. When our yard gets nuked, we lose Nether Spirit. When yours get nuked, you lose Raven's Crime, lands you could have Loamed, or even LftL itself if you don't have a top to save it. How can you lose to combo when you have a Dark Depths die-next-turn mechanism in your deck? Granted, we also lose Spinning Darkness and Tomby but for some, those are sideboard dependant.
As far as I can tell, Sneak Show is auto win for me. Sideboard Ensnaring Bridges make it that much funnier. Wastelanding their fancy 2 mana generating lands is quite satisfying as well. Abrupt Decay is great, though I'd never run less than 4 Smallpox. What's the name of your deck again?I'm jealous of your meta if you only need 3 Liliana in your deck to get her to stick. The lack of 1 cmc targeted discard is why your combo matchups are bad
Yard denial isn't as scary as player shroud. Leylines can't be Abrupt Decayed and shut off our most dangerous disruption and damage cards. C. Scroll, Liliana's -2, Hymn to Tourach, and Inquisition/Duress all end up dead. I'd suggest Worm Harvest to flood your opponent since it synergizes with Loam quite well and can be discarded early game.
I can't agree with a combo style win in a control deck like Pox. It needs more focus. I once tried an aggro style build and discovered I couldn't disrupt enough. The way this deck looks, it might just drop Smallpox altogether for more effective kills like Diabolic Edicts or more entombs. You already have Raven's Crime and Wastelock with Loam to reduce their board and hand to shat.
Has anyone seen this yet?
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12858&iddeck=94287
I am really intrigued by Pack Rat in Pox. It seems like it does quite a lot and could theoretically allow for some subtle changes such as Mutavault and Volrath's Stronghold. Maybe even a Swarmyard.
Pack rat to feed TOMBSTALKER?!
Sounds like a bit of bad luck and matchups. I don't think I would put anymore discard for those combo matchups. They are just non interactive decks that sometimes have the nuts draw. RUG is more favorable and they sometimes run Misdirect, but 3-4? Again that seemed like an unusual piece of luck. Loam is certainly better against Miracles with Abrupt Decay and Krosan Grip, so an early needle and some dicard and Ratchet Bomb is what you have to hope for. Thorn or Sphere can slow Omni and Storm a bit.
I messed about with some Pack Rat after I saw some lists using it, and while it was very cool when you managed to make one stick and copy it a time or two and the tap your mutavault (replacing Factories) to attack for 9-12 , I felt I had to worry about protecting it too much as it can be a bit slow and mana intensive. All of a sudden you are not only worried about Swords as normal with Nether Spirit and other grave recursion, but also just lightning bolts, and all of your own innocent bloods and sac effects and discard as well as thiers, and getting one out and making a copy for three before a sac effect doesnt always go off so smoothly. But with the Tombstalkers, etc it can be brutally aggro. I wonder if Hardcore has tried it in his aggropox build?Pack rat to feed TOMBSTALKER?!
This is a very unique and intriguing list. I like it a lot actually. I proxied it on Cockatrice last night and played a few matches. I have some initial thoughts but will have to play it a bit more to give better feedback. It is true that it goes all in on the combo, but other than a few times where I had to dig for it a little, but others, especially with the odd Hexmage, it was like oops 20/20 creature on turn 3-4. The pox stuff disrupts and contols the board till you get it together, rather than trying to lock the game up. I'm poxer enough that I still like 4 Lilly and 4 Smallpox. Though with a couple months of testing on your part and a few games for me I'll take your word for it. Swords seems to be the biggest enemy, and opposing Lilly sac, and while you side in 3 Thoughtseize for that and combo, I wonder if in this build they may be more maindeckable than Hymn. Maybe another Entomb or Ravens crime if room, though I see how you don't want to rely on yard anymore than you do. Orzov does work, bit if a spot were found for a Night of Souls Betrayal, it wouldnt hurt you any with no Spirits or Factories. A 19/19 guy is fine cause they probably lost a point or two from fetchland anyway. Overall, it is a very thoughtful deck.
I only side in thoughtseize vs combo. Swords is "meh thanks for 20 life" --> loam back my combo (which is frequent vs miracles since they have terminus as well). Gaining 20 life basically means: I have all the time in the world to wastelock you and return my combo too. Swords just gets discarded to raven's crime/hymn most of the time. I'm not in a hurry to win. Swords gives me even more time to durdle. Interesting story: Vs miracles which for some reason played 4 snapcaster....my life total was 99 at one point in the game. This was an older version of the deck though I've vastly improved it since then.
Siding in a couple vampires really catches people off guard. It's also funny that people ASSUME YOU HAVE 4 CROP ROTATION. Every turn your vampire (or one of the combo lands) is in play they panic that you can crop EOT. I'm not an all in super fast combo deck so 4 crop rotation is pretty useless early game. I even disliked 3.
Opposing Lily doesnt matter, you always combo EOT. Same with Jace (unless they chump it with a flying thing like Clique then remove your token next turn).
I didn't like the thoughtseize life loss but it's worthy to test. I like how Hymn is FoWbait. It's so brutal and I'm loving it! I feel like it somehow clears the way for a liliana to resolve.
Important to note --> I win over 50% of my games vs tempo with wastelock lol. Especially when you have cabal pit or a Lily.
I also have a question for you guys:
With my build, would you side out smallpox vs miracles? I find it terrific vs ANT/other combo cuz it kills the basic the fetch early on to ponder/whatever.
And thank you for your help/input! I'll test some of the suggestions you put forward.
I would not. Smallpox sets a top decker back very badly. Miracle? Sure, if you can cast it with the mana on the field. Lovin' Sinkhole Wasteland and wouldn't trade either except against say, Dredge or other 1 cmc combo decks.
Smallpox is anti-brainstorm. Some argue they 'hide cards' from it but I ask you this. The Tempo player is losing a creature, the card he BS'd, and a land. Does he not have to BS or Ponder 3x to get all that he lost back?
Indeed i have; got mine yesterday. Todays tourney was too weird to report but i got to test them at least.
They work well with my dredge cards as was expected, but the mana requirement suggest using dark rituals. Alternatively a slower play when the rat is on the table.
Big tourney report. List was posted earlier.
First opponent, Keith, nice player, relatively new to Legacy. He didn't recognize Liliana. At that point, I realized he was a dead man.
Turn 1: I'm on the play. Urborg, Dark Ritual, Liliana. PW +1, I discard Urborg, he chucks an Island. I smirk in the back of my head.
He's on the draw, he drops Island + Lotus Petal. I'm confused for a second.
Turn 2: I Sinkhole his Island. Liliana + 1 discarding Sinkhole. He discards Misty Rainforest.
He plays Volcanic Island
Turn 3: I top deck and Wasteland his Volcanic Island. Liliana +1. He discards Sneak Attack. At 4 cmc, I confirm in my head, he's a dead man lol.
He plays City of Traitors
Turn 4: I top deck a dark rit which I throw to Liliana +1. He discards Emrakul and reshuffles.
He plays a mountain.
Turn 5: I ultimate with Liliana and in response, he casts Intuition revealing 3 Gitaxian Probes
His probe gets him a Scalding Tarn.
Turn 6: I sinkhole his only mountain. Liliana +1 and he discards Emmy again...
The vast majority of the game involves me discarding his Emmy's repeatedly and by turn 15, I stick a Cursed Scroll which eventually kills him on turn 21.
Round 1 Game 2: He's somewhat nervous as what to sideboard. I fake board in my 15 and take out the same 15.
Turn 1: He's on the play with a Scalding Tarn and Lotus Petal.
I'm on the draw with Urborg ->Dark Ritual, and he hits it with a Swan Song by fetching a Volc. Island. He forgot I used wastelands and regrets his decision. I'm happy with a 2/2 flying bird.
Turn 2: He plays a Scalding Tarn
I punch him with the bird, lay down a Mishra's, and use both my land to cast Hymn. It discards Ancient Tomb + City of Traitors...
Turn 3: He plays and Ancient Tomb.
I hit him with the bird and hit another Hymn off the top. He discards Misty Rainforest and Scalding Tarn. I'm laughing hysterically inside.
Turn 4: He draws and pass.
My sinkhole is met with a Spell Pierce and I bird him.
Turn 5: Brainstorms end of previous turn, draw pass.
I Stick Liliana, I discard Urborg, he chucks Emmy [not again :)] and for the rest of the game, it's Bird doing the lifting with Liliana pleasuring me incessantly. He dies to bird and a 3/3 mishra.
2nd foe is Jason. A good sport. Nic Fit.
Round 2 Game 1:
Turn 1: I'm on the draw. He lays Scrubland. I'm not impressed lol
I inquisition his Abrupt Decay. At first, he had my curiosity, now he has my attention. I see other Abrupt decays and I know Lili is in danger.
Turn 2: Bayou into Gitaxian Probe.
I dark ritual a Liliana. I discard Innocent Blood and he chucks a forest. I play Mishra's factory
Turn 3: He gives Liliana an Abrupt tooth Decay after playing his swamp.
I play cursed scroll off a swamp and deck him with my factory.
Turn 4: He Cabal Therapys me naming Pox. He wiffs :)
I cast small pox, it hits, I discard small pox, he chucks Morning Star [dragon Yosei I think.]
Turn 5: he plays Vet. Explorer and I cringe.
I sinkhole his Bayou.
Turn 6: He attacks me with his explorer unblocked.
I punch him with Mishra.
Turn 7: He Draws and Pass
I Dark Ritual -> Innocent Blood + Cursed Scroll, then activate Mishra and deck him with it. We get our lands off his Vet. Explorer.
Turn 8: He sticks SDT. I'm screwed.
I wasteland his Scrubland and Mishra hits him.
Ultimately, he gets another Vet. Explorer and ramps the mana he needs to cast Baneslayer. I dead...
Round 2 Game 2.
No details needed, he sticks a Leyline before the game begins and I in all my wisdom didn't board out ALL my targeting discards and my cursed scrolls. He sticks and SDT on turn 2 vs. my Cursed Scroll off turn 1. I eventually die to a hard casted Sigarda with no way to stop her. I'm raped by a beautiful hexproof anti-Pox angel...
Round 3. Foe is Craig, another good sport. My meta has nice people. But this game was a throw away. Stoneforge Esper style I think.
Each turn in BOTH games I mulligan my opening to 6 and can't seem to cast or play anything significant. Both times I'm punched by Batterskull or True Name nemesis. I managed to kill his first TNN game one with an Innocent Blood but my top decking gets me flushed out.
I win nothing. But, I am vengeful and shall return!
@omnistrata
those are difficult matches and none of your losses seem because of misplays or a bad decklist..
-nic fit
this deck is basically just classic rock style and will try to out-control you with control elements, big threats and removal..its strongest against fair decks and weak against combo like SnT and omni variants..nic fit is a difficult match since they have more control elements than us but i don't think its unwinnable..i'm not an expert in this match up because in all honesty i've only faced it once but i got lucky enough to beat it, and i stress the word lucky
-TNN(esper)
esper, i believe is the strongest shell you can put TNN in(though i've seen TNN in bant as well)..its intrinsic weakness is its unstable mana base(usually only 3 while some don't run any at all )..engineered plague on wizard also helps coz a lot of em' run vendilion clique, snapcaster mage, dark confidant and trinket mage to a lesser extent..
overall, i'm not really convinced about these losses, those matches are tough but are all winnable..give it another go!
Hmm, an idea I haven't tested in MonoB Pox was SDT. Problem is the re-shuffling necessary after you've set your deck for 3 turns or so. Your draws become garbage. No fetchlands, Black Sun Zenith maybe? I also agree, the losses were winnable, but stopping Nic Fit's ability to generate card/land advantage is nuts. Ankh of Mishra for laughs? Don't know lol.@omnistrata
those are difficult matches and none of your losses seem because of misplays or a bad decklist..
-nic fit
this deck is basically just classic rock style and will try to out-control you with control elements, big threats and removal..its strongest against fair decks and weak against combo like SnT and omni variants..nic fit is a difficult match since they have more control elements than us but i don't think its unwinnable..i'm not an expert in this match up because in all honesty i've only faced it once but i got lucky enough to beat it, and i stress the word lucky
-TNN(esper)
esper, i believe is the strongest shell you can put TNN in(though i've seen TNN in bant as well)..its intrinsic weakness is its unstable mana base(usually only 3 while some don't run any at all )..engineered plague on wizard also helps coz a lot of em' run vendilion clique, snapcaster mage, dark confidant and trinket mage to a lesser extent..
overall, i'm not really convinced about these losses, those matches are tough but are all winnable..give it another go!
Sweet baby Jesus, this build is naaaasty. I played it a few times more, adjusting a bit for what I expect to see most, my playstyle, and cards I have and have found it to be very strong.
I finagled in 3 Sinkholes cause I was having a hard time with Rishadan Ports and opposing Wastelands lying in wait for combo lands. I replaced the Hymns with Thoughtsieze just to make sure and hate out the haters.
Also I added a single Tombstalker as a wish target for added pressure on combo and decks I know cant handle a Tomby. And lastly I added two Drop of Honey to the board for similar situations one would play Ensnaring Bridge.
Basically I took out the white splash as I am not sure I want to get those cards yet.
many mono black pox players shun the fetches as a shuffle enabler for the top because they deem the life loss adds up especially with daddy pox in the line up or if you're also running thoughtseizes..but with black sun's zenith as a pseudo shuffle enabler? hmmm, at first glance it seems a bit mana intensive even if you're only going to cast it forand top is quite mana intensive already in a deck that is designed to run on very few resources..i haven't tested it; but to be honest, i like the sound of it..
supposing we try it? which card's slot do you think BSZ and SDT will replace in the main?
One Night of Souls' Betrayal and one uh, hmm, I'm stuck lol...many mono black pox players shun the fetches as a shuffle enabler for the top because they deem the life loss adds up especially with daddy pox in the line up or if you're also running thoughtseizes..but with black sun's zenith as a pseudo shuffle enabler? hmmm, at first glance it seems a bit mana intensive even if you're only going to cast it for
supposing we try it? which card's slot do you think BSZ and SDT will replace in the main?
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