All B/R update speculation.

[kiblast]

Honestly 95% of the times I cast my ugly FNM Brainstorms I know what I'm looking for and I know what I don't need. But I see people misplaying Brainstorms all the time. Most of the Bs misplays are due to timing though. Understanding the timing is not easy at all, it takes lots of practice.

Do you need to cast Brainstorm? Yes, then that's the time. No, not the time. Skilful? No, not really.

Yep, in the end it all comes down to understanding this… but to me it is skillful. Well, at least for me it took a lot to be able to cast Bs with decent timing.

[Dzra]

Back on the Brainstorm BS again? (Round and round the garden, like a teddy bear...)

Meh. As long as people are willing to waste time attacking Brainstorm, I'll be around to rebuttal.

Brainstorm is not complicated to use. Seeing the right moment almost always is as simple as a board read or in response to a spell. Knowing what to put back can be hard, but you can just draw one of the cards and then shuffle away the other with a fetch.

This is not true. Brainstorm is pretty easy to use: just ship away the worst two cards in the best possible moment. I really can't understand what's so special about that.

Like I've been saying. You guys may not think Brainstorm is that complicated a card, but then what actually is complicated in this game? Cabal Therapy? Just name a card in your opponent's deck that you're afraid of. Green Sun's Zenith? Just find the best duder for the boardstate. Ad Nauseam? Draw as many cards as you can and not die. See? It's not that hard to reduce some of the game's most complicated cards to "not that skillful."

What makes Magic difficult is that there are a very large number of minute decisions that add up over the course of a game. The fact is that casting Brainstorms (or GSZs or Therapy, etc) involve much, much larger decisions than the average decision in Magic. In a format where the order in which you play your three lands can easily lose you the game, deciding when to cast Brainstorm, which cards you need, which cards you will need, what to put back, the order in which you put them back, and whether or not to shuffle them away before your next draw is comparatively makes Brainstorm a very complicated card. Most likely, if you think that casting Brainstorm is easy then you are probably just not doing it very well.

[HSCK]

Definitely time to break out the banhammer on TNN everyone, 4 copies in the top 16! 4!

[Dzra]

So from the last SCG, we have:

Blue (10):
4 UWr Miracles
2 Sneak and Show
1 American Delver
1 ANT
1 BUG Delver
1 Esper Deathblade

NonBlue (6):
2 Jund
1 Death and Taxes
1 Deadguy Ale
1 Elves
1 Goblins

Midranged (6):
2 Jund (Deathrite)
1 Death and Taxes (SFM +Vial)
1 Deadguy Ale (SFM)
1 Esper Deathblade (Deathrite + SFM)
1 Goblins (Vial)

Control (4):
3 UWr Miracles
1 Miracleblade (SFM)

Combo (4):
2 Sneak and Show
1 ANT
1 Elves

Tempo (2):
BUG Delver (Deathrite)
American Delver (SFM)

Midranged still represents most of the field, with a slight increase in Control and a slight drop in Combo and Tempo.

We see that Blue is much less present in this top 16 than normal, with only 6 TNN and 8 Delvers present.
Stoneforge Mystic, however, is everywhere with 19 copies present.
Numbers of good anti-TNN cards are also on the rise and could account for the lack of TNN, with 16 Lilianas and 14 Terminus present.

[Dice_Box]

Maybe people just got sick of playing it. I mean no matter what side of the table your on, TNN is not fun to see.

[Esper3k]

Definitely time to break out the banhammer on TNN everyone, 4 copies in the top 16! 4!

It's warping the meta so much that even it can't compete!

Sure looks like to me people are starting to put on their big boy shoes and start to deal with it. Glad to see D&T and Jund doing well at the Open too.

[HSCK]

Maybe people just got sick of playing it. I mean no matter what side of the table your on, TNN is not fun to see.

Or maybe it's just not the Legacy ending card a lot of people scream it is. It's almost as if the metagame has adjusted to it, is that even possible!?

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

No it isn't possible, take your vile wicked notions and leave, venture back into that hole of inequity you came from

[Zilla]

Or maybe it's just not the Legacy ending card a lot of people scream it is. It's almost as if the metagame has adjusted to it, is that even possible!?

It bears repeating that most people want the card banned because it creates games that are consistently unfun to play and watch, not because the metagame is unable to adjust to it. I could adjust to wearing socks made of broken shards of glass, but I wouldn't want to.

[Megadeus]

It bears repeating that most people want the card banned because it creates games that are consistently unfun to play and watch, not because the metagame is unable to adjust to it. I could adjust to wearing socks made of broken shards of glass, but I wouldn't want to.

Mostly this. I mean sure we SHOULD have to adapt to not simply being able to play StP or Pfire and calling it a day as far as removal goes. I'm fine with running different types of removal to deal with different threats. My issue really being that to deal with it you kind of have to warp your deck around dealing with it or you simply can't beat it. It's not like Nimble mongoose who has shroud, but is not evasive and can't infinitely chump block. I think the protection really put it over the top. If it had been hexproof, unlockable, it wouldn't be that big a deal. The protection from like pyroclasm and being able to infinitely chump dudes is the part that makes it so miserable

I just hate when suddenly a game that I have worked to a decent board state becomes, oh he dropped a TNN and now if I don't win in two turns I'm just dead

[Megadeus]

Sorry for the double post, but I feel like this just adds onto the Blue being the best color. Not necessarily because TNN is blue, but because with all of the varying threats that legacy must deal with it is hard to have answers to every single one of them, and counterspells are the best generic answer that can answer most of the big must deal with threats in legacy.

[Dzra]

I mean, the meta sure seems reasonably healthy at the moment. It's true that True-Name Nemesis didn't implode the world. Decks like Jund seem to be popping back up. Like Zilla said, it still doesn't make TNN an enjoyable card to play against. I'd still think that an errata is the best option (the lack of a trigger seems like a big design oversight), but a ban seems premature or even unnecessary.

[Lemnear]

I mean, the meta sure seems reasonably healthy at the moment. It's true that True-Name Nemesis didn't implode the world. Decks like Jund seem to be popping back up. Like Zilla said, it still doesn't make TNN an enjoyable card to play against. I'd still think that an errata is the best option (the lack of a trigger seems like a big design oversight), but a ban seems premature or even unnecessary.

I disagree. We never had less top performers since the mid 2000's which were Goblins, RUG and Landstill. According to Patricks recent DtB analysis you have to play Miracles, SFM and/or DRS if you want to compete. As mentioned before in this thread, TNN is annoying die to it's lack of interactivity, but the card that is stifling the development of the Legacy metagame is SFM which is in every control and Aggro deck atm (even in Miracles). Pretty much like Tarmogoyf a few years back, but it was clear that people here rather rant about blue cards instead of realizing that there is an issue with hyperefficient, easy splashable threats

[Dzra]

I'll agree that there are a whole lot of SFMs around these days... It's basically a better (but slower) Tarmogoyf that's in White. I'm not sure how much of a problem that is exactly, especially since it makes Death and Taxes a deck.

I would say that more than anything, the increase in SFMs is due to the increase in TNN hate (Terminus, Liliana, Show and Tell, etc). Sure SFM works well with TNN, however, if you happen to be trying to beat the decks that beat TNN then SFM is highly resilient to both sweepers as well as Liliana. Like Tarmogoyf its a solid clock against the combo decks that try to go over TNN... but unlike Tarmogoyf, a Batterskull won't fold to a sweeper.

Problem...? I wouldn't say so yet, but possibly something to watch.

[Echelon]

I'll agree that there are a whole lot of SFMs around these days... It's basically a better (but slower) Tarmogoyf that's in White. I'm not sure how much of a problem that is exactly, especially since it makes Death and Taxes a deck.

D&T just got booted out of the DtB-section, so there goes that point.

I say ban Brainstorm, Daze & FoW. It leaves blue-based combo decks nice and open to all kinds of silly hate and also forces everything running TNN/SFM (yes, yes, except for D&T and perhaps Maverick) to get creative. I'd honestly be curious as to what that would do to our metagame. I can't imagine banning the 3 most played blue cards to not have a massive impact.

[Dice_Box]

Ban Force? Have you lost your mind?

[Echelon]

Shock and awe!

[Dice_Box]

Um, no. It's foolish. Beltcher and Oops become royal pains that are almost impossible to stop, half the leading decks in the format implode and we really gain nothing for it. Daze also, no reason to ban it.

Brainstorm is the one card you have mentioned that the format can move along without. I do not want it gone, but it would not be the death of Legacy if it was.

But Force, I am a Red player, and if Force was banned, I would pack up and sell that weekend.

[Echelon]

The meta'll find a solution against every dominant strategy. If it doesn't, more bans can ensue.

Combodecks with consistent turn 1 kills run amok? Just ban some more cards key to those decks. Problem solved!

Don't forget that the banning of any card doesn't mean no other card will ever get banned again.

[Dice_Box]

But that's unnecessary. Force is a fine card that polices the format well enough on its own. Also it allows for decks like Beltcher to exist. There is no reason to take out Force and then go "Well shit, now we have to cut out Beltcher, Opps, TES, Kobolds...."

Force of Will is a service to the format. It's more than a card. I am head and shoulders against shooting the policeman and then asking for Lynch Law to take its place.