Miracle Control

[Malakai]

It's not like we need the thread. The deck is almost identical to how it looked in 2012.

[Malakai]

I recently started playing Miracles (Ein's list -Verdict, -Disenchant, +Moat, +Wear//Tear) and I'm having a blast so far, but my local meta is riddled with BUG decks (Shardless and Delver). Which build would you more experienced pilots recommend in a meta like this, and do you have any general tips in the matchup? I particularly struggle with a resolved Lily. My initial thoughts are to trade some number of FOWs for Misdirections to deal with Hymn and Decay, and to make room for Pithing Needles in the board...

I have played the card Redirect in these metas. It seems like it should be terrible, because it's freakin' Redirect. However, the card ends up being insane. Redirecting an Abrupt Decay or a Hymn generally wins the game. Against Shardless you even get to Redirect Ancestral Visions.

[twndomn]

I recently started playing Miracles (Ein's list -Verdict, -Disenchant, +Moat, +Wear//Tear) and I'm having a blast so far, but my local meta is riddled with BUG decks (Shardless and Delver). Which build would you more experienced pilots recommend in a meta like this, and do you have any general tips in the matchup? I particularly struggle with a resolved Lily. My initial thoughts are to trade some number of FOWs for Misdirections to deal with Hymn and Decay, and to make room for Pithing Needles in the board...

Sure, Miracle is fine against BUG decks. However, BUG Delver is different from Shardless BUG. Against BUG Delver, since you're on Ein's list, just listen to what he says about BUG Delver. As to Shardless BUG, you should be slightly favored, as long as Shardless doesn't blind cascade into Vision (he could set it up using Brainstorm/Jace). I have lost to Shardless BUG after my Misdirected hymn resolved on him, making him empty handed; all because he blindly cascaded into Vision, in which I could not counter.

Watch more Oarsman's stream, see how he fought off Liliana. Simply put, Liliana's ultimate is your only concern. If BUG's reducing both players' hand size, the card quality control via Top will allow you to position yourself better than the BUG player. I don't think Needle is your solution against Liliana, I would rather have more Clique, or try a Runed Halo if you like to experiment.

[Malakai]

For my taste, Einherjer's miracles version is not sufficient prepared to win the "mirror" match. I absolutely don't like the idea of main deck Red Blasts, though. Any other ideas?

I have seen 2 Karakas, 2 Venser, some number of Cliques used to great effect.

[Parcher]

As a miracles player against dredge, post-board literally all we care about is resolving Rest in Peace. Top is scarcely part of the engine in that matchup. We can find some way of killing you.

Put another way, I am not concerned with Dredge being a better control deck.

You refer to miracles with MD RiP, but I considered Dredge to be one of Miracles' best matchups before RiP had even been printed, and we were just using Relics out of the board.

I guess I'm rambling. To answer you question directly, the longer the game goes, the less concerned I am. "Therapy on Rest in Peace, try to combo" seems like a stronger plan than "Pithing Needle on SDT."

I can quickly see that most agree about not being concerned about Dredge disrupting their gameplan, only about Dredge going off before they can effectively implement their own. Since you got to what I was concerned with most directly, my concern about Top is not the long game, but more directly with Miracles finding RiP, Terminus, or Entreat(on any combination of same) after I had already emptied their hand and flooded the board. Which has happened multiple times with my running the Quadlazer list. So instead of fighting this, it seems the consensus is to streamline the Dredge deck to go off as quickly as possible, and then include what must be some Dread Return target to insure either the immediate kill, or something to cripple Miracles ability to crawl back into the game. Against the majority of the format, the standard combination of beats and Therapies is enough. But Miracles needing just Top and a land to sweep all my work has been the biggest hurdle to winning. As you said, regardless of RiP.

So now I know what to work toward. Thank you all for your help.

[martyrX]

Just re-entered the legacy world, UW miracles is my first stop. I mostly intend to play local paper tournaments.

One thing i am wondering is: why are there no black splashes? I am testing it myself, but certainly you guys have opinions on this. Thoughtseize seems pretty effective here...takes their best card and gets us that much closer to topdeck mode (which should give us the advantage since our topdeck should be superior). It also gives us knowledge which is often a huge advantage. Has anyone tried thoughtseize/duress?

As for the red splash, I can see the why people run it, but in a local, unpredictable meta I am not so sure. Blood moon might win a game, REB...is all or nothing.

Looking forward to perusing your thoughts,

martyrX

[Shawn]

The black splash is great against combo, but suffers against other Jace decks and Delver decks, which are a bigger concern. The red version is still pretty good against most forms of combo where you have REBs and Flusterstorms instead of discard after boarding.

[twndomn]

Just re-entered the legacy world, UW miracles is my first stop. I mostly intend to play local paper tournaments.

One thing i am wondering is: why are there no black splashes? I am testing it myself, but certainly you guys have opinions on this. Thoughtseize seems pretty effective here...takes their best card and gets us that much closer to topdeck mode (which should give us the advantage since our topdeck should be superior). It also gives us knowledge which is often a huge advantage. Has anyone tried thoughtseize/duress?

As for the red splash, I can see the why people run it, but in a local, unpredictable meta I am not so sure. Blood moon might win a game, REB...is all or nothing.
martyrX

The color splash has been debated. If you have the patience, you can dig deeper into older pages.

Black splash for Thoughtseize is bad, Engineered Plague is far better. If you want to run thoughtseize/duress, you're just lying to yourself as a miracle player when in fact you should be playing esper blade. Black discard is mediocre in this miracle context, even against combos.

REB is not all or nothing. Blasts are the most diverse card in the format. In fact, it's quicker to name decks that Blasts will do nothing than to name the countless decks that Blasts will cause issues for your opponent. Why do you think Lossett MD 2 Blasts with 2 more in the SB?

In short, Splash red Blasts (pyro+reb) provide the most diverse answer in a wide open meta, splash Black provide the best removal.

Of course, I haven't been taking Notion Thief seriously, if that's still a thing.

[Dzra]

Which build would you more experienced pilots recommend in a meta like this, and do you have any general tips in the matchup? I particularly struggle with a resolved Lily. My initial thoughts are to trade some number of FOWs for Misdirections to deal with Hymn and Decay, and to make room for Pithing Needles in the board...

Pithing Needle doesn't make the cut against BUG since it's fairly easy to remove. I don't much care for Misdirections. Personally, I think you should ignore Abrupt Decay for the most part and remove Counterbalance. Against either deck, lots Cliques and Vensers are your best way to keep Liliana in check. RIP is still fine since at worst it nukes the GY and burns one of their Abrupt Decays (that would otherwise be hitting your creatures attacking Liliana).

For BUG Delver, Flusterstorm/Spell Pierce have been decent enough at stopping early hand disruption. REB is alright here probably as a 2-of since a lot of their powerful spells are Black.

Against Shardless, I would probably cut the Pierces/Flusterstorms in favor of more REBs since I can expect the game to go much longer and to involve Jaces and Ancestrals.

So instead of fighting this, it seems the consensus is to streamline the Dredge deck to go off as quickly as possible, and then include what must be some Dread Return target to insure either the immediate kill, or something to cripple Miracles ability to crawl back into the game.

I also agree with the speed plan to some extent, but Unmask is actually very scary and stripping a key FoW or RIP can easily win the game on that turn.

[martyrX]

The color splash has been debated. If you have the patience, you can dig deeper into older pages.

Black splash for Thoughtseize is bad, Engineered Plague is far better. If you want to run thoughtseize/duress, you're just lying to yourself as a miracle player when in fact you should be playing esper blade. Black discard is mediocre in this miracle context, even against combos.

REB is not all or nothing. Blasts are the most diverse card in the format. In fact, it's quicker to name decks that Blasts will do nothing than to name the countless decks that Blasts will cause issues for your opponent. Why do you think Lossett MD 2 Blasts with 2 more in the SB?

In short, Splash red Blasts (pyro+reb) provide the most diverse answer in a wide open meta, splash Black provide the best removal.

Of course, I haven't been taking Notion Thief seriously, if that's still a thing.

I've gone through the thread, but there is no real explanation for why thoughtseize is not used, the closest i saw to a reason was, 'we are reactive, thoughtseize is proactive' or that it is weak lategame. To the former, sure, miracles is about as 'control' as you can get, but a few proactive cards can be great (like the stoneforge package on the side that i see in many lists) why not thoughtseize. As for lategame weakness, top, brainstorm, jace certainly helps in this regard. It's not that I don't believe you, I really am curious as to why no one runs it.

I'm sure losset's meta (the computer meta that i have no knowledge of and will never be involved in) is the reason for 2 main REBs...his meta is much more predictable than mine. That's not to say it wouldn't be useful in my sideboard, just not as often, which matters.

Another advantage of thoughtseize is its ability to grab uncounterable cards, like abrupt decay, or an aether-bounced thalia, or something that would be cast with cavern of souls, or a stoneforge-found batterskull.

[Malakai]

I've gone through the thread, but there is no real explanation for why thoughtseize is not used, the closest i saw to a reason was, 'we are reactive, thoughtseize is proactive' or that it is weak lategame. To the former, sure, miracles is about as 'control' as you can get, but a few proactive cards can be great (like the stoneforge package on the side that i see in many lists) why not thoughtseize. As for lategame weakness, top, brainstorm, jace certainly helps in this regard. It's not that I don't believe you, I really am curious as to why no one runs it.

I'm sure losset's meta (the computer meta that i have no knowledge of and will never be involved in) is the reason for 2 main REBs...his meta is much more predictable than mine. That's not to say it wouldn't be useful in my sideboard, just not as often, which matters.

Another advantage of thoughtseize is its ability to grab uncounterable cards, like abrupt decay, or an aether-bounced thalia, or something that would be cast with cavern of souls, or a stoneforge-found batterskull.

Just try it. It seems like it should be good, but it's not. Hell, I once played UB counterbalance a long time ago, and even then I still didn't want Thoughtseize. Don't waste your time trying to grill us for a satisfactory answer, just test it out against real opponents.

[Einherjer]

I've gone through the thread, but there is no real explanation for why thoughtseize is not used, the closest i saw to a reason was, 'we are reactive, thoughtseize is proactive' or that it is weak lategame. To the former, sure, miracles is about as 'control' as you can get, but a few proactive cards can be great (like the stoneforge package on the side that i see in many lists) why not thoughtseize. As for lategame weakness, top, brainstorm, jace certainly helps in this regard. It's not that I don't believe you, I really am curious as to why no one runs it.

I'm sure losset's meta (the computer meta that i have no knowledge of and will never be involved in) is the reason for 2 main REBs...his meta is much more predictable than mine. That's not to say it wouldn't be useful in my sideboard, just not as often, which matters.

Another advantage of thoughtseize is its ability to grab uncounterable cards, like abrupt decay, or an aether-bounced thalia, or something that would be cast with cavern of souls, or a stoneforge-found batterskull.

Can't be you didn't find anything. I alone got mad at least twice when people brought up the black splash again... and again...and again. There are plenty of explanations from many people... or you could just trust us: Black is just worse than Red, always. And no, I am not going to explain, not again.

Greetings

[alphastryk]

Can't be you didn't find anything. I alone got mad at least twice when people brought up the black splash again... and again...and again. There are plenty of explanations from many people... or you could just trust us: Black is just worse than Red, always. And no, I am not going to explain, not again.

Greetings

Yeah, it seems to come up every 5 pages or so. The black splash isn't worth it.

[Dzra]

The third RIP or the first Grafdigger's Cage? ... Or just YOLO with only two GY hates?

Also, anyone have much experience against that new mono Green 12-Post deck? Seems like it should be more favorable than the UG version, but likely still unpleasant.

[ivanpei]

I would run the Grafdiggers. It spreads out the casting costs Abit and is fantastic against elves. Also the gist of why black and discard is not good is:

1. Discard is bad late game. Even though we have a ton of late game cards, each card matters, we don't want bad late game cards. Discard does nothing against topdecked threats.

2. Discard is tempo lost compared to removal/counters. A control deck always wants removal and counters rather than discard because it's tempo parity or tempo gain. For example if you strip a T2 sfm, he can drop baleful strix or hymn instead, but you already spent mana on Thoughtseize. On the other hand if you REB a Counterbalance, Jace or True name, it's tempo gain.

[twndomn]

The third RIP or the first Grafdigger's Cage? ... Or just YOLO with only two GY hates?

Also, anyone have much experience against that new mono Green 12-Post deck? Seems like it should be more favorable than the UG version, but likely still unpleasant.

1. graveyard hate
If you are playing Ein's list, surgical extraction is another option. It's free, you get to deploy this emergency safety net against explosive combo draws from griselbrand storm, or the first dredger. If you still can't find RiP by turn 2, but you found Snapcaster, guess what, keep extracting to buy yourself more turns. The card can be surprisingly versatile if you're playing the war of attrition long game, i.e. mirror match.

2. mono-green 12 Post
I might be mistaken, isn't that guy also a friend of Joe? Ironically, if that 12 Post ever gets popular, perhaps it would be time to dish out BBD's take on Miracle, tutor for Blood Moon might actually be a thing.

[Cipher]

The third RIP or the first Grafdigger's Cage? ... Or just YOLO with only two GY hates?

Also, anyone have much experience against that new mono Green 12-Post deck? Seems like it should be more favorable than the UG version, but likely still unpleasant.

Is this before, or after the first copy of Enlightened Tutor?

[oarsman]

Also, anyone have much experience against that new mono Green 12-Post deck? Seems like it should be more favorable than the UG version, but likely still unpleasant.

I think that is accurate. Jon's deck seems much easier than other 12 post decks. But still miserable.

[Rush80]

Can't be you didn't find anything. I alone got mad at least twice when people brought up the black splash again... and again...and again. There are plenty of explanations from many people... or you could just trust us: Black is just worse than Red, always. And no, I am not going to explain, not again.

Greetings

Mmm ... The use of always seems an overstatement.

Red is used solely for Reb which is an all around card, a truly must have. if that was banned and pyroblast too, people would go 2 colors control.
Red started to show up much more freq as a splash over the last 4-5 years legacywise.

Black for removal and not discard has been for the prior 20 years the third color of choice for classic control decks.

[YamiJoey]

I played UW at GPParis, and I still think I had one of the best decks in the room. I skewed my main towards decks I didn't need to, and I'm generally crap at Magic, hence my lack of a result, but UW is incredible. It allowed me to play 3/7 Plains/Island for Basics, and just gave me a lot of flexibility throughout the day against Wasteland decks, and meant I didn't need to worry about my mana at all. It was only a slight increase, as I currently play 22 Lands in 3 colours and it's fine, but it was just slightly better. You lose very little from it, the only major deal was no REBs for TNN's getting cast which is definitely the thing I hate having to deal with the most. 3 is by far our weakest CMC, and once it lands it reduces your outs quite extensively. I played an Enlightened Tutor build, and the card selection was incredible. Having "W: Counter target Spell. Shuffle your Library." was very effective. It was also Tops 5 and 6.

Generally, I'm a big advocate of UW, but I am currently playing Engineered Explosives, 3 REBs, and a Mountain in the board, and can definitely see why it's good.