[Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm

[NoizeMe]

As we run the same core of cards there is the desire to look at each other to find inspiration to tackle new problems and changing metagames, which is absolutely fair. Starting a discussion with a borderline insult to everyone, just because of possibly knowing 1-2 very special, local guys with a strange POV in regards to deckbuilding is not, as it is no way near an "open-minded" discussion to nearly ignore metagame challenges like RIP, Hatebears and discard, but act as if Spell Pierce and RUG Delver are the defining factors and not Thoughtseize/Hymn/Counterbalance+FoW in a field cleary dominated by Team America (which also runs DRS!) and Miracles (yeah I know how to outplay CB+Top with cantrips and Cabal Ritual, in case this pops up)

We are exactly on the same page on this.
The point I tried to make was that the discussion if ANT or TES is harder/better/faster/stronger is just senseless.
I could see discussing specific cards or choices from ANT and there applications in TES (e.g. Cabal Ritual, like Bryant already did a couple pages ago), but comparing the decks in general makes no sense, at least in my opinion, as they are very different in play-style.

To me it is like comparing Miracles to UWR Delver.
Yes, the run similar colors. Both play FoW and Brainstorm. But still to very different decks.
That was what I tried to say.

Proof that you have to mark every joke with a smiley

This. Not to mention, I even wrote that the Cabal Therapy ended up being a better choice for the event because of the way things played out.

Personally I do think this was a joke, but since Patrunkenphat7 brought that one up and Bryant seemed to not know what he was referring to, I posted the link.
I did not intend to make any kind of statement with this.

[sawatarix]

My comment on the new canonist:

Fortunately it costs 3.
Unfortunately it is massacre-proof

However with the printing of the white dudes It's time to increase the massacre count in te sb, i played 1 in the side during BoM in november and it was great so far.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[Megadeus]

I think that the new True Believer may see some play simply because it isn't double white whick helps out things like Maverick, Deadguy, and whatever else that may want this effect. 3 mana Canonist is not only slower, but costs more. Card is bad. But yeah if I were to play TES I'd probably be on at least 1 Massacre in the board atm.

[Lemnear]

I think that the new True Believer may see some play simply because it isn't double white whick helps out things like Maverick, Deadguy, and whatever else that may want this effect. 3 mana Canonist is not only slower, but costs more. Card is bad. But yeah if I were to play TES I'd probably be on at least 1 Massacre in the board atm.

Now with more fetches I can see this being desired at some point in the future

[Megadeus]

Now with more fetches I can see this being desired at some point in the future

Right. I mean I guess not having access to basic swamp kinda sucks, but you have more access to USeas fwiw. I think it is a strong enough card in a meta full of thalia, meddling mage, canonists and other shit. Unfortunately Teeg is still kind of an issue. I mean it doesnt slow you down, but it's still annoying.

[Patrunkenphat7]

We are exactly on the same page on this.
The point I tried to make was that the discussion if ANT or TES is harder/better/faster/stronger is just senseless.
I could see discussing specific cards or choices from ANT and there applications in TES (e.g. Cabal Ritual, like Bryant already did a couple pages ago), but comparing the decks in general makes no sense, at least in my opinion, as they are very different in play-style.

To me it is like comparing Miracles to UWR Delver.
Yes, the run similar colors. Both play FoW and Brainstorm. But still to very different decks.
That was what I tried to say.



Personally I do think this was a joke, but since Patrunkenphat7 brought that one up and Bryant seemed to not know what he was referring to, I posted the link.
I did not intend to make any kind of statement with this.

Bryant thinks ANT and TES are very similar. Here is a quote from the article you just linked:

"This doesn't seem too different from Ad Nauseam Tendrils (ANT), am I right?

Truth be hold, it's really not.

Both decks are pretty similar."

I think it is worthwhile to discuss the differences in the Storm decks, because I want to play the best deck in the metagame. I don't care which deck that is. People can feel free to disagree with my analysis of the decks, but why is this subject taboo? People flip out when this comes up. In my opinion, it is one of the most useful discussions we can have in a Legacy Storm forum.

[paeng4983]

I think it is worthwhile to discuss the differences in the Storm decks ... the best deck in the metagame ...

As I see it, regardless of countless hair splitting the differences between them, it all boils down to the pilot's decision in handling certain situation.

cheers ^_^

[Bryant Cook]

Bryant thinks ANT and TES are very similar. Here is a quote from the article you just linked:

"This doesn't seem too different from Ad Nauseam Tendrils (ANT), am I right?

Truth be hold, it's really not.

Both decks are pretty similar."

I think it is worthwhile to discuss the differences in the Storm decks, because I want to play the best deck in the metagame. I don't care which deck that is. People can feel free to disagree with my analysis of the decks, but why is this subject taboo? People flip out when this comes up. In my opinion, it is one of the most useful discussions we can have in a Legacy Storm forum.

Yes, they're similar in the same that BUG Delver and RUG Delver are related. They share the same fundamental game plan and strategy as they're both tempo decks, hold on. I'm going to check those threads to see if they're also acting like children - I'll be right back.

EDIT: Nope.

EDIT 2: The reason people have an issue is the way you went about it. If you wanted to address the question it should've been done in the Format & Article Discussion section - not the TES thread. We had a discussion going that you halted because of your opinions.

[Patrunkenphat7]

Yes, they're similar in the same that BUG Delver and RUG Delver are related. They share the same fundamental game plan and strategy as they're both tempo decks, hold on. I'm going to check those threads to see if they're also acting like children - I'll be right back.

EDIT: Nope.

EDIT 2: The reason people have an issue is the way you went about it. If you wanted to address the question it should've been done in the Format & Article Discussion section - not the TES thread. We had a discussion going that you halted because of your opinions.

There's actually been some solid back and forth discussion on this from quite a few people besides me over the last few days. I know that I rub you the wrong way for some reason, and I am not sure why you are being so abrasive, but it would be great if you could keep the sarcastic remarks to a minimum. The personal message attacks were enough. Let's get on track with the Magic discussion.

[Lemnear]

We are exactly on the same page on this.
The point I tried to make was that the discussion if ANT or TES is harder/better/faster/stronger is just senseless.
I could see discussing specific cards or choices from ANT and there applications in TES (e.g. Cabal Ritual, like Bryant already did a couple pages ago), but comparing the decks in general makes no sense, at least in my opinion, as they are very different in play-style.

To me it is like comparing Miracles to UWR Delver.
Yes, the run similar colors. Both play FoW and Brainstorm. But still to very different decks.
That was what I tried to say.

I just added my post to yours as we were chopping in the same notch, not to disagree or correct you :)

The range of 3-4 different playsets within a single mainboard creates quite a gap in Legacy like you can call Team America, RUG and Patriot all twins of the tempo archetype as they are just differing by Hymn vs. Stifle, the creatures and the land-colors. The discussion here reminds me of the one being held in regards to RUG and Team America as RUG players just ignored TNN as a problem to justify still running Tarmogoyfs

[sawatarix]

Well,because everyone here is discussing the difference between Ant and TEs and their strengths:

Las week i joined a legacy tournament with 80 participants and piloted a unusual Ant build to a 51

Deck: "the machine gun"by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Spells:46
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam

Lands:14
1 Bayou
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre


The Decklist is my own brew for this tournament which is Ant with more speed (2 Ad Nauseam,2 Chrome Mox)
And the Deck was insane.
So building hybrids between Tes and Ant could be also a way if you are seeking the best deck for your playstyle.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

[trollking21]

Well,because everyone here is discussing the difference between Ant and TEs and their strengths:

Las week i joined a legacy tournament with 80 participants and piloted a unusual Ant build to a 51

Deck: "the machine gun"by Kai Thiele

Counts : 60 main / 15 sideboard

Spells:46
2 Chrome Mox
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Brainstorm
2 Cabal Therapy
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder
1 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Thoughtseize
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
2 Ad Nauseam

Lands:14
1 Bayou
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Polluted Delta
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Volcanic Island

Sideboard:15
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Flusterstorm
2 Xantid Swarm
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Young Pyromancer
1 Empty the Warrens
2 Massacre


The Decklist is my own brew for this tournament which is Ant with more speed (2 Ad Nauseam,2 Chrome Mox)
And the Deck was insane.
So building hybrids between Tes and Ant could be also a way if you are seeking the best deck for your playstyle.


- Team RUG-STAR Berlin -

You seem to have made ad nasuem really really bad in this deck. Once you start flipping you have will still have a 5 (ad nas) and 2 4's (past in flames and tendrils) you also lose empty the warrens which I don't know if I like. I don't know much about A.N.T. But are their as nas that bad?

Other then that it looks fine

[bennotsi]

You seem to have made ad nasuem really really bad in this deck. Once you start flipping you have will still have a 5 (ad nas) and 2 4's (past in flames and tendrils) you also lose empty the warrens which I don't know if I like. I don't know much about A.N.T. But are their as nas that bad?

Other then that it looks fine

Before Gitaxian Probe was printed everyone (both TES and ANT) was playing 2 Ad Nauseam main. Sure it's a pain when you flip the other one, but the increased odds of having the card in hand are actually quite nice. So in a list without Gitaxian Probes, it's fine. I wouldn't want to play with only 5 protection spells though.

Also, why are we discussing an ANT list in the TES thread?

[DarkJester]

Before Gitaxian Probe was printed everyone (both TES and ANT) was playing 2 Ad Nauseam main. Sure it's a pain when you flip the other one, but the increased odds of having the card in hand are actually quite nice. So in a list without Gitaxian Probes, it's fine. I wouldn't want to play with only 5 protection spells though.

Also, why are we discussing an ANT list in the TES thread?

4 (duress) +2 (cabal therapy) +1 (thoughtseize) =5 ?

[bennotsi]

4 (duress) +2 (cabal therapy) +1 (thoughtseize) =5 ?

Ah I miscounted. I guess I tried to answer the question of "how on earth has he found space for all that?" too quickly. First I thought he must not be playing Gitaxian Probe, then I thought it was because of fewer protection spells. Now I see that it's because of fewer cantrips. It's an interesting list that's for sure. I would be afraid of not being able to find business with that count of cantrips and business spells, but maybe I just need to tryout the list myself.

[Lemnear]

I don't see the appeal of Young Pyromancer in a deck that runs a shitload on artifacts and Rituals which you don't want to burn for 1/1 elementals. If i woild be in the mood for nicpicking, I would ask there the so-called "resiliency against discard" of ANT is hidden lol. Fact is that this list still has to get hands on 2 initial mana post Ad Nauseam (or IMS + DR) to turn on the Cabal Rituals and still needs to flip, IT, PIF or ToA to win on a reliable base. I don't like Ad Nauseam in ANT and increasing the number of +4cc flips without increasing the quantity of value-cards to reveal to AN isn't THAT hot. AN is a draw7 for attrition wars in here. My 0.02$

P.S.: Kai, this is still the TES thread.

[d0nkey]

I don't see the appeal of Young Pyromancer in a deck that runs a shitload on artifacts and Rituals which you don't want to burn for 1/1 elementals. If i woild be in the mood for nicpicking, I would ask there the so-called "resiliency against discard" of ANT is hidden lol. Fact is that this list still has to get hands on 2 initial mana post Ad Nauseam (or IMS + DR) to turn on the Cabal Rituals and still needs to flip, IT, PIF or ToA to win on a reliable base. I don't like Ad Nauseam in ANT and increasing the number of +4cc flips without increasing the quantity of value-cards to reveal to AN isn't THAT hot. AN is a draw7 for attrition wars in here. My 0.02$

P.S.: Kai, this is still the TES thread.

If we do away with AN in ANT, wouldn't it then become PiFT?

Also, isn't the only other major difference between ANT and TES the fact that TES has the ability to win with <10 storm?

[wonderPreaux]

If we do away with AN in ANT, wouldn't it then become PiFT?

Also, isn't the only other major difference between ANT and TES the fact that TES has the ability to win with <10 storm?

The major difference is that your fundamental turn is faster, part of the reason for that being that you can win with less than 10 storm, but also because you have "faster" ritual effects and more moxen

[Patrunkenphat7]

The major difference is that your fundamental turn is faster, part of the reason for that being that you can win with less than 10 storm, but also because you have "faster" ritual effects and more moxen

You can also win with less than 10 Storm in ANT if you play Empty like I've been playing for a while in that deck.

[Bryant Cook]

You can also win with less than 10 Storm in ANT if you play Empty like I've been playing for a while in that deck.

Part of the issue arguing ANT vs TES is that TES has an agreed consensus amongst most of the players on it's main deck where ANT does not. Your argument is much easier to make when the contents of what you're defending aren't available or exact.