[Deck] Team America (BUG Delver)

[btm10]

In my experience, the BUG matchup against RUG is quite favorable. However, I think the fact that the primer advocates cutting two Hymns indicates that my understanding of the matchup is quite different from that of the primer's author. RUG is an excellent aggressive deck, and so the BUG deck is cast into the control role. BUG is forced to establish its manabase, while using its removal spells to halt the initial rush of the RUG player.

BUG has 24 total mana sources, while RUG has only 18. That's a huge difference, meaning that the RUG player's one-for-one Wastelands aren't very exciting. At the same time, while RUG has no good means of removing Tarmogoyf maindeck, BUG has a set of Abrupt Decay as well as Lili. Lili is a crucial card in this matchup, and I play three. Likewise, while RUG has no means of generating card advantage beyond a well-placed Fire, BUG has Lili, Bob, and Hymn. Hymn is extremely important in this matchup. RUG has no extra land; a resolved Hymn against RUG is almost guaranteed to hit two relevant cards.

My list is here: http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65172

With that list, I cut 3 Force and 2 (Thoughtseize/Daze depending on play or draw) for 2 Disfigure, 2 Submerge, and 1 Clique.

Rich

Rich Shay (quoted above) runs Weirding as a 1-of in his board and finished 2nd at an IQ earlier this month.

[Sturtzilla]

+1 to K Grip. Weirding sounds cool (again, this is my inner Timmy speaking) but I wonder if anyone has had success with the card

Rich Shay won an SCG IQ with a BUG Delver deck with a 1-of Weirding in the sideboard. He posted it a few pages back. Grip, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and Weirding are all very good. Clique can also be pretty nice. I wouldn't say it is terrible but it can be a tough one. I am also a fan of Golgari Charm. It can be extra enchanment removal for RiP and Counterbalance while also Regening your guys through a Supreme Verdict.

[Barbed Blightning]

Rich Shay won an SCG IQ with a BUG Delver deck with a 1-of Weirding in the sideboard. He posted it a few pages back. Grip, Pithing Needle, Null Rod, and Weirding are all very good. Clique can also be pretty nice. I wouldn't say it is terrible but it can be a tough one. I am also a fan of Golgari Charm. It can be extra enchanment removal for RiP and Counterbalance while also Regening your guys through a Supreme Verdict.

Same, I'll probably be doing a SB along the lines of:

2 charm
2 disfigure
1 deluge
1 cage
3 pierce
1 force
1 grip
1 needle
1 Clique/flex
1 weirding/flex
2 thoughtseize/flex (if I do 3 hymn, 2 thoughtseize main, which I am trying to figure out now)

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[Barbed Blightning]

Same, I'll probably be doing a SB along the lines of:

2 charm
2 disfigure
1 deluge
1 cage
3 pierce
1 force
1 grip
1 needle
1 Clique/flex
1 weirding/flex
2 thoughtseize/flex (if I do 3 hymn, 2 thoughtseize main, which I am trying to figure out now)

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

Nice double post, phone.

[zenzog]

Should we dedicate sideboard space (over 5 cards) to fight miracles or should we just punt the matchup and focus on beating the more 50/50 matchups?

I've been using 1 null rod, 2 cliques, 1 creeping tarpit, 3 spell pierces, 1 pithing needle and I am still having a hard time fighting miracles. Do you think its time to just give up on it?

I have to play at least one miracles list every week, occasionally two, and I've only been winning games recently because I switched from tombstalkers to dark confidants and putting a sylvan library in the mainboard. My SB plan is roughly as follows:

-2 abrupt decay
-1 wasteland
-4 daze
-1 force of will

+2 golgari charm
+1 krosan grip
+2 vendilion clique
+1 liliana of the veil
+1 hymn to tourach
+1 envelop

Sometimes I'll board the dazes in on the play, but I find that they almost always keep 1 mana open for top anyway it's only decent in a counter war, but they have flusterstorms and rebs too. Spell pierce is less than ideal for the same reason... my opponents can/will freely play around daze and pierce.

I'm also very careful to not commit too many creatures to the board. Zur's weirding and winter orb are two other options I've considered, but I don't know what I'd take out.

[KobeBryan]

I have to play at least one miracles list every week, occasionally two, and I've only been winning games recently because I switched from tombstalkers to dark confidants and putting a sylvan library in the mainboard. My SB plan is roughly as follows:

-2 abrupt decay
-1 wasteland
-4 daze
-1 force of will

+2 golgari charm
+1 krosan grip
+2 vendilion clique
+1 liliana of the veil
+1 hymn to tourach
+1 envelop

Sometimes I'll board the dazes in on the play, but I find that they almost always keep 1 mana open for top anyway it's only decent in a counter war, but they have flusterstorms and rebs too. Spell pierce is less than ideal for the same reason... my opponents can/will freely play around daze and pierce.

I'm also very careful to not commit too many creatures to the board. Zur's weirding and winter orb are two other options I've considered, but I don't know what I'd take out.

Miracles is certainly beatable...dont' get me wrong, but to beat it consistently against someone like joe lossett, we need a better sideboard plan. So is it worth it?

[zenzog]

Miracles is certainly beatable...dont' get me wrong, but to beat it consistently against someone like joe lossett, we need a better sideboard plan. So is it worth it?

I don't think we'll ever be heavily favored against Miracles, if that's where you want to be.
I'm going based on your 4/19 decklist and I think Hymn is better than Thoughtseize against Miracles. Also, maybe your 3rd spell pierce could be an envelop.
I like 1 Null Rod / Pithing Needle + Krosan Grip over 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, too.

[KobeBryan]

I don't think we'll ever be heavily favored against Miracles, if that's where you want to be.
I'm going based on your 4/19 decklist and I think Hymn is better than Thoughtseize against Miracles. Also, maybe your 3rd spell pierce could be an envelop.
I like 1 Null Rod / Pithing Needle + Krosan Grip over 1 Null Rod, 1 Pithing Needle, too.

Discard is not good against miracles. Its the top deck that you need to control

[zenzog]

Discard is not good against miracles. Its the top deck that you need to control

Well, then by all means jam more null rods and pithing needles.

I'm just relaying what I feel has done well for me against Miracles and I find that Hymn is still a great card.

[Barbed Blightning]

Well, then by all means jam more null rods and pithing needles.

I'm just relaying what I feel has done well for me against Miracles and I find that Hymn is still a great card.

Especially when it hits two lands :)

Sent from my mobile phone; please ignore spelling errors or grammatical laziness.

[amalek0]

Miracles is certainly beatable...dont' get me wrong, but to beat it consistently against someone like joe lossett, we need a better sideboard plan. So is it worth it?

To be fair, to consistently beat someone like Joe Lossett, you also have to be good at legacy period. Mind games and planning matter at that level of play =)

[nitewolf9]

And supposedly...Joe was born in a mental institution. And he sleeps only one hour a night.

He's a great man.

[rlesko]

Hi guys...new to the deck, initially started with a 4 of everything list - 4 brainstorm / daze / abrupt decay / ponder / thoughtseize / FoW / DRS / Goyf / Delver / wasteland /// 2 bob / lilli /// 16 land

but I'm thinking of shaving a FoW, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, and Ponder for 2 Disfigure (yes, 2 main) and 2 Hymn (relegating the 4th fow, AD, and thoughtseize to the SB). Would the inclusion of disfigure be too crazy in the main board? I think I like the versatility of it for things like Bob, Mom, delver, SFM, bob, etc. the sideboard would be mostly dedicated to combo, miracles, and dredge. if anyone has any experience running a list like this please let me know!

[KobeBryan]

Hi guys...new to the deck, initially started with a 4 of everything list - 4 brainstorm / daze / abrupt decay / ponder / thoughtseize / FoW / DRS / Goyf / Delver / wasteland /// 2 bob / lilli /// 16 land

but I'm thinking of shaving a FoW, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, and Ponder for 2 Disfigure (yes, 2 main) and 2 Hymn (relegating the 4th fow, AD, and thoughtseize to the SB). Would the inclusion of disfigure be too crazy in the main board? I think I like the versatility of it for things like Bob, Mom, delver, SFM, bob, etc. the sideboard would be mostly dedicated to combo, miracles, and dredge. if anyone has any experience running a list like this please let me know!

Lots of people have...it ups the instant/sorc count for delver flips, helps with MD creature decks.

But you better pack some hate against combo with 6 destroy spells.

Give up on miracles. A moderately competent player can beat this deck.

dredge...you don't need too much. maybe a cage, and some surgicals...ask esper how he felt with only 1 surgical in his board.

[phazonmutant]

Hi guys...new to the deck, initially started with a 4 of everything list - 4 brainstorm / daze / abrupt decay / ponder / thoughtseize / FoW / DRS / Goyf / Delver / wasteland /// 2 bob / lilli /// 16 land

but I'm thinking of shaving a FoW, Abrupt Decay, Thoughtseize, and Ponder for 2 Disfigure (yes, 2 main) and 2 Hymn (relegating the 4th fow, AD, and thoughtseize to the SB). Would the inclusion of disfigure be too crazy in the main board? I think I like the versatility of it for things like Bob, Mom, delver, SFM, bob, etc. the sideboard would be mostly dedicated to combo, miracles, and dredge. if anyone has any experience running a list like this please let me know!

I literally won a SCG Open with 2 Disfigures in the main. It's on the internet, along with an article about why it's not terrible.

Give up on miracles. A moderately competent player can beat this deck.

dredge...you don't need too much. maybe a cage, and some surgicals...ask esper how he felt with only 1 surgical in his board.

That's some bullshit advice. When we ran 4x Sinkhole in the sideboard, Miracles was easily 60-65% in our favor. When we ran 2 Winter Orb in the board, Miracles was still favorable (I didn't play too much with that plan, not sure on percentages). Now that we have neither, Miracles has dropped to a mere even matchup. Learn to play against Miracles. It's easy to lose to them, but you can definitely beat them if you know how to.

I'm actually pretty afraid to play Dredge. I've lost to it several times with TA, although rarely with other Delver builds. Deathrite is a speedbump and Surgical is a timewalk at most. Our discard is fairly bad (Thoughtseize is decent though), and we don't have Swords or Stile to deal with their Narcs and Ichorids.

[KobeBryan]

I literally won a SCG Open with 2 Disfigures in the main. It's on the internet, along with an article about why it's not terrible.



That's some bullshit advice. When we ran 4x Sinkhole in the sideboard, Miracles was easily 60-65% in our favor. When we ran 2 Winter Orb in the board, Miracles was still favorable (I didn't play too much with that plan, not sure on percentages). Now that we have neither, Miracles has dropped to a mere even matchup. Learn to play against Miracles. It's easy to lose to them, but you can definitely beat them if you know how to.

I'm actually pretty afraid to play Dredge. I've lost to it several times with TA, although rarely with other Delver builds. Deathrite is a speedbump and Surgical is a timewalk at most. Our discard is fairly bad (Thoughtseize is decent though), and we don't have Swords or Stile to deal with their Narcs and Ichorids.

Dredge is definitely beatable. Focus the surgicals on the bridge. Your DRS and cage can take care of the recurring creatures. You have counters against them to stop the big draw cards.

Miracles is the much much harder matchup to win against. Discard sucks against them, your decays aren't that great, and you don't have that many creatures to keep up with their removals, unlike bant, which has a much easier match than TA because of more pressure.

I dont' think you are playing good miracle players. A decent miracles player will beat TA

[Valtrix]

Rich Shay (quoted above) runs Weirding as a 1-of in his board and finished 2nd at an IQ earlier this month.

Why would weirding ever be better than Diabolic Edict or even Chainer's Edict?

Also, if you want to start beating Miracles, try out Bitterblossom. That is by far one of the most frustrating cards for Miracles to deal with. Outside of a timely entreat Miracles will be hard pressed to answer this card once it's in play. I must also second the fact that a good Miracles player will beat this deck a good majority of the time, and I say this speaking as a Miracles player myself and from basically everybody's opinion from the Miracles thread.

[phazonmutant]

Dredge is definitely beatable.

So? I didn't say otherwise, just that I wouldn't say it's a matchup where "you don't need too much". If I expected to play against Dredge, I would add at least 2 non-Surgical grave hate spells. The current plan is dodge good dredge players and mise.

Miracles is the much much harder matchup to win against. Discard sucks against them

Except for Hymn, which I seem to recall you've cut from your list. They still need to play lands and spells, things Hymn is good against.

your decays aren't that great

...What?

you don't have that many creatures to keep up with their removals

13-15 creatures + 2 Liliana + Sylvan + whatever random lock pieces is actually quite a lot of threats. Sure they can answer various ones with different removal or hate cards, but you force them to have the answer before they die. That doesn't always happen.

unlike bant, which has a much easier match than TA

Bant what? Hey look, a red herring.

Edit: reply to Valtrix

Why would weirding ever be better than Diabolic Edict or even Chainer's Edict?

Also, if you want to start beating Miracles, try out Bitterblossom. That is by far one of the most frustrating cards for Miracles to deal with. Outside of a timely entreat Miracles will be hard pressed to answer this card once it's in play. I must also second the fact that a good Miracles player will beat this deck a good majority of the time, and I say this speaking as a Miracles player myself and from basically everybody's opinion from the Miracles thread.

I think he's talking about Zur's Weirding. It's cute, but I don't see why it would be better than Jace.

Bitterblossom is a sweet one! Good suggestion. I realize that it's the opinion of many people on the Miracles thread (especially the Germans, it seems), but my experience has just never been like that. Sure, I've definitely lost matches to them, and I wouldn't say that it's a matchup I'd prefer to face, but "good majority of the time"? That seems excessive. There seem to be too many Miracles draws that are nonbasic-heavy or just plain awkward that TA can easily interact with to say that it's grossly unfavored.

[sdematt]

Why would weirding ever be better than Diabolic Edict or even Chainer's Edict?

Also, if you want to start beating Miracles, try out Bitterblossom. That is by far one of the most frustrating cards for Miracles to deal with. Outside of a timely entreat Miracles will be hard pressed to answer this card once it's in play. I must also second the fact that a good Miracles player will beat this deck a good majority of the time, and I say this speaking as a Miracles player myself and from basically everybody's opinion from the Miracles thread.

Because if I understand Wierding correctly, it literally says: "Target Miracle player reveals Entreat the Angels. Would you like to pay 2 life to have them not draw that card now?"

-Matt

[KobeBryan]

So? I didn't say otherwise, just that I wouldn't say it's a matchup where "you don't need too much". If I expected to play against Dredge, I would add at least 2 non-Surgical grave hate spells. The current plan is dodge good dredge players and mise.



Except for Hymn, which I seem to recall you've cut from your list. They still need to play lands and spells, things Hymn is good against.


...What?



13-15 creatures + 2 Liliana + Sylvan + whatever random lock pieces is actually quite a lot of threats. Sure they can answer various ones with different removal or hate cards, but you force them to have the answer before they die. That doesn't always happen.



Bant what? Hey look, a red herring.

Edit: reply to Valtrix


I think he's talking about Zur's Weirding. It's cute, but I don't see why it would be better than Jace.

Bitterblossom is a sweet one! Good suggestion. I realize that it's the opinion of many people on the Miracles thread (especially the Germans, it seems), but my experience has just never been like that. Sure, I've definitely lost matches to them, and I wouldn't say that it's a matchup I'd prefer to face, but "good majority of the time"? That seems excessive. There seem to be too many Miracles draws that are nonbasic-heavy or just plain awkward that TA can easily interact with to say that it's grossly unfavored.

This deck runs 14 creatures, 2 of which you take out game 2, leaving it to 12. Miracles runs 4 terminus, 4 plows, counters, supreme verdict. If you watched espers match against joe losset, you can tell he didn't have enough things to do the final damage. Hence goblins is a much better matchup against miracles. Esper will say the same about the lack of pressure.

Abrupt decays are not that useful. What cards does miracle bring to the board? 1 creature at most, sensei, which you can't really decay, and counter balance. People side out counter balance against TA...in fact, we side out abrupt decays against miracles as it is one of the more useless cards. The card we use is golgari charm to kill the rest in peace, counter balance, and to save our creatures from a supreme verdict.

Whether you are playing thoughtseize or hymn, discard in general isn't a good card for a long grinder. Miracles operates on the topdeck, not things in their hands...watch espers match against joe.

Red herring...no. Its an example how a deck with more pressure would be a better matchup against miracles. A proactive deck compared to a reactive deck. Explains why you had more success running 4 sinkholes before