18% on team america is pretty crazy tooOriginally Posted by twndomn
edit: seems like the stat actually clumps BUG delver and shardless bug
Last edited by princeofperasia; 05-02-2014 at 02:34 PM.
And one player worse than the other.
Its painful to watch.
True strength lies in action. Let the weak react to me! -Kamahl, Pit Fighter
Darn 3 spots from getting that trop
But in all seriousness, awesome performance! What was the meta like at the top tables? Any changes you'd make initially? I'm going to try out the list this weekend at a semi-large event, but I might change the counterspell in the board to a celestial purge or spell snare or something else depending on what the meta is shaping up to look like. I'm guessing the counterspell is there especially for the mirror, as it's a hard counter and a 2cmc for counterbalance.
Also, here are the 3 miracles lists that made top 8 at BoM:
Marcus Olsson (truckis123)
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
2 Entreat the Angels
4 Terminus
4 Counterbalance
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
(8 basics, 9 fetches, 4 duals, 1 Karakas)
5 Island
2 Plains
1 Mountain
3 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Karakas
Sideboard
2 Wear // Tear
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Pithing Needle
Johannes Gutbrod
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
3 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
2 Ponder
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
(6 basics, 10 fetches, 5 duals, 1 Karakas)
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Karakas
Sideboard
1 Disenchant
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Rest in Peace
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Counterspell
1 Supreme Verdict
Tomasz Jablonski
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Brainstorm
4 Swords to Plowshares
2 Spell Pierce
1 Spell Snare
2 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
1 Ponder
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Terminus
1 Supreme Verdict
3 Counterbalance
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Sensei's Divining Top
(6 basics, 9 fetches, 5 duals, 1 Gate 1 Karakas)
4 Island
2 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Flooded Strand
1 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
1 Mystic Gate
1 Karakas
Sideboard
2 Disenchant
1 Flusterstorm
3 Pyroblast
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Rest in Peace
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Moat
Spell Snare surprisingly popular and each list ran SFM/BSkull in the SB as well.
wow. imagine the amount of grindy mirrors that went down that day...
The increase in popularity is partly why I started playing Punishing Fires. Very nice in the mirror (and against most things I find--I couldn't tell you how many games I keep winning because of fire/groves that I feel like I have no business winning otherwise).
I like the idea of crushing mirrors, but doubt the tradeoff is worth it in a meta that's still saturated with Wastelands. I don't fancy decreasing blue mana sources in a deck aiming at having UU available by turn 3 latest. Also: there is no real application for the green you add, while worsening the mana base.
That being said imma online test it anyway now
It's actually not that much of an issue. I can sandbag groves to get value out of it even through a wasteland, and generally once people see your on fire/groves, it actually tends to protect your other mana sources since groves is generally just so much more valuable. I was a bit skeptical about my manabase at first, but I've found it to be fine. Yes, it is inherently a bit less stable, but it's not really "game losing" unstable. The extra power fire/groves gives has been incredible in my experience and completely worth any trade-off with the manabase. It has applications in so many places, from killing walkers to repeated removal to stopping batterskull to just being an extra wincondition. Frankly, it wins me way more games than the counterbalance softlock ever does. For reference, this is the following manabase I've been running:
//23 land
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Flooded strand
3 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
3 Island
1 Plains
2 Tundra
3 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
Not sure how PFires is good in the mirror, when it gets locked out by CounterTop and Rest in Peace?
CB + Top owns the mirror too, but if your opponent brings in 2-3 RiPs and thus leaves out other value spells - that's not necessarily a bad thing.
PS, Here's the rather random list I'm spinning atm:
4 Top
4 BS
4 Ponder
3 Jace
3 StP
3 P. Fire
2 Terminus
2 EtA
2 CB
4 FoW
1 CS
1 Snare
1 REB
2 Pierce
2 EE
4 Flooded Strand
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Arid Mesa
2 Volcanic Island
3 Tundra
3 Island
1 Plains
3 Grove
SB:
1 EtA
1 StP
2 Terminus
2 Pyroblast
2 Wear/tear
2 Fluster Storm
1 CB
3 GY haterz (undecided)
1 open slot
After 12ish games, P. Fire hasn't shone yet, though the manabase was OK even against Wasteland.dec. MD EEs and REBs (+ SB Pyros) definitely benefit from Groves, SB Wear/Tear is much more feasible over Disenchant too, though this isn't a huge upgrade overall. Having WW available for EtA is definately less reliable and having to cut "UU" spells (CB/CS/Clique) also feels kinda meh.
I'll give it 10 more and see how it flows.
Last edited by klaus; 05-04-2014 at 08:17 AM.
I played at a local Duel for 40 Duals event yesterday. There was 140 players and I went 6-2 with miracles for 13th place and plateau. I used this list:
2 Arid Mesa
4 Flooded Strand
4 Island
1 Karakas
2 Plains
4 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
4 Brainstorm
2 Ponder
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
3 Counterbalance
1 Counterspell
2 Spell Pierce
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
2 Entreat the Angels
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Snapcaster Mage
Sideboard:
2 Engineered Explosives
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pithing Needle
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Counterspell
1 Disenchant
2 Rest in Peace
1 Entreat the Angels
1 Supreme Verdict
My Matchups:
0-2 BUG Delver
Game 1 he had triple hymn and I was on a mull to 5. Game 2 we traded back and forth for a long time but eventually he seemed to be drawing nothing, but so was I. I drew 5 lands in a row. Eventually I got a top and cliqued him to see his hand was literally 4 decays, 2 charms and a goyf he just drew. A turn or so latter he dropped null rod and my following draws were relic, EE, 2nd top, 3rd top. My mistake was not boarding in disenchant. But the, "board out all the targets for decay/charm" plan worked pretty well.
2-0 High Tide
G1 I stick a counterbalance and float a 3 drop to counter his out (wipe away). G2/3 my deck is literally just lands, counterspells and clique/jace. After about turn 4 I had 5-7 castable counterspells in my hand our on top of my library. My EoT clique on turn 3 closed the game out.
2-0 UR Omnishow with red for Burning wish
G1 he goes all in, sacing 2 lotus petals for show and I counter it. G2 he resolved a show and tell after a long counter war on turn 2 with just 1 card left in hand. He puts in emrakul and I am extremely relieved. I show in my 3rd land. Untap, 4th land, jace -1. Thanks for the turn 3 Jace, GG.
2-1 Manaless dredge (Hollywood)
Hollywood is easily one of, if not the, best dredge player(s) so even with miracles, beating him is never easy. I quickly learn he is playing FoW and disrupting Shoal, to deal with GY hate.
G1 He gets me. G2 I stall him out with a relic for quiet a while. He starts to get ahead of the relic eventually so I crack as soon as I can't answer what he is doing with StpS. After a lot of digging I find a EE and RIP just after he gets a couple of zombies out and tears apart my hand. G3: My opening has REB, flusterstorm, RIP and the right lands. I don't go for turn 2 RIP because he has 8 free counterspells in his deck postboard. He dredges a bunch with street wraiths and gets dude+therapy online. I brainstorm RIP on top of my deck. And turn 3 cast it for the lock.
2-1 High Tide
Swan song was really good G1, but otherwise: "G2/3 my deck is literally just lands, counterspells and clique/jace. After about turn 4 I had 5-7 castable counterspells in my hand our on top of my library. My EoT clique on turn 3 closed the game out."
1-0-1 Death and Taxes
We have a 40minute G1 which involved me karakas/cliquing myself 3 times in a row to put tops #2 and #3 on bottom of my library and me jace bounching my snapcaster twice to StpS Serra Avengers with 2 equipments on them. For most of the game, I have a karakas out which nullifies the 2 thalia he has in hand for the entire rest of the game. I make 3 angels early and he answers them, but the 4 I make later are good enough for him to scoop when hes at 40 life still. G2 We did not finish, but I was stabilized and in a decent position when we timed out.
0-2 TES (Royce)
Royce is one of the best TES pilots and I have played against him and Cook quiet a few times so I know how the matchup goes.
G1 He baits out 1 FoW and goes for an early rit>rit>AdN. I Have a 2nd force. Unfortunatly, I brick on lands for 4-5 turns and just draw garbage. Eventually I get third land and make my first mistake, end of draw step cliquing him and taking a ponder. He assembles a natural storm 9 tendrils. I had a spell pierce, I should have just held up mana and waited to clique him EoT or if he started chaining rituals. G2 He turn 1 duresses my counterspell. I make another mistakes I think: I have pierce, FoW, blue card, REB and I let him wish for therapy on turn 2. Turn 3 I think I cast a ponder or something on my turn, so I only have plains, volc untapped. He casts ponder, and I think he is not going off this turn so I REB it. Now he casts therapy. I feel I have to FoW it now or he knows he can just go for it (and my other blue card was jace). I should have just pierced the wish when I the chance. He assumes the coast is clear, and using the storm from my FoW and REP, he has enough to tendrils me for lethal.
2-1 Merfolk
G1 The fish get me. G2 I misideboard a bit, forgetting about cavern of souls I leave in a counterbalance. I have a really rough time stabilizing, but he overextends and I punish him for it, and then he holds back his mutavault attacking with just lords when I only have StpS so I stabilize eventually and Jace him. G3 Is a super close one. Near the end, I wasn't seeing any answers to his dudes with my top or jace but I have entreat and ponder on top of my deck. I do the math and then only way he could outrace my entreat is if he draws silvergill into silvergill into lord, so I go all in on an Entreat, shuffling away top, and we just race. He only gets me to 1 and I win. I talking to him later he it come up that he has zero outs, and instaloses to a resolved Moat.
I was thrilled to face combo all day. Especially 3 mono-blue combo decks. The BUG matchup was terrible luck and a small mistake. The storm matchup I think I could have won though if I played smarter.
The maindeck and SB felt really solid. I still really like the maindeck 1 karakas, 2 clique, 2 snap. Venser might change though. He was underwhelming for me today. He was really good at getting pitched to FoW and he had one awesome moment of bouncing a lord and blocking a mutavault, but that was about it. My SBing against BUG is a little awkward. I basically have 7 cards I want to take out and 6 cards I want to bring in. So the only other thing I am considering is dropping needle for something that is good against BUG, but also still good against Vial deck. A 2nd verdict perhaps. Also, I usually don't like spell snare, but It would have been amazing against all the decks I played except dredge.
Thanks for the right up. always much appreciated! your list looks very solid - no funky card choices (except for Venser). Revisiting your MUs, 1-2 MD Blasts would have been beneficial every single G1, barring DnT. Venser --> REB looks feasible, also slightly lowering your curve, which is nice considering your 22 land count.
I'm not sure why you think you need to cut the UU spells. Getting UU isn't really that hard in my experience. But you're running only 20 lands (!), 3 of which are groves, so that probably has something to do with it. But WW for Entreat is definitely a bit more painful, which is partly why I cut down to a single entreat. It's definitely one of the most powerful cards our deck has access too and I really miss the second copy, but I have extra win-cons to make up for it.
It'd be nice if you could elaborate on exactly what you mean by fire/groves hasn't "shone yet," as there's a couple interpretations I could see. Do you mean you've been assembling the combo but it just hasn't been worthwhile? Or do you mean that the combo has been too tough to put together because of draws/wastelands/etc.? I feel like unless you're against combo any game where you have fire/groves together is generally better than when you don't. Everybody (except combo) has walkers or creatures which you need to kill. I can only speak from my experience of course, but the recursion has let me win a lot of games I feel like I have no business winning in any other way.
For reference, here is the list which I've been playing for awhile now and I'm very happy with it. Still testing the SFM/Batterskull and honestly it wins me a lot of games, although I'm still not completely sold on it.
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Volcanic Island
2 Tundra
1 Plateau
1 Plains
3 Island
4 Flooded Strand
3 Arid Mesa
2 Scalding Tarn
4 Punishing Fire
1 Swords to Plowshares
4 Terminus
3 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Pierce
4 Brainstorm
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
SB: 1 Humility
SB: 2 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Rest in Peace
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Detention Sphere
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Swords to Plowshares
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Counterspell
SB: 1 Supreme Verdict
SB: 1 Counterbalance
I am really not a fan of the REB maindeck. But that did occur to me that REB would have been amazing all day. My issue with the REB, besides it being dead against 40-50% of the field on average, is that I need a mountain maindeck. My friend and I often swap fetchlands, so getting the tarns aren't an issue and I have played with the mountain MD before and it really did mess things up a few times. This deck really wants blue lands. Drawing a basic plains even cost me that G2 against TES. That said, I always forget how blue the Binghamton meta always is. I even remember during the players meeting one out-of-stater next to me asked a stranger, "whats the meta like here?" and the other guy just responded "blue". Next time I play in Binghamton I think I will do the MD REB.
Sometimes I still really like venser, but I think I might cut him for a snare, 2nd counterspell, MD verdict, 3rd snap or 3rd ponder.
EDIT: Also, that Punishing Fire list looks pretty sweet. I might have to try that at some point soon.
You certainly don't need a Mountain. #yolo
I played the P Fire version for almost a year after switching back to a more traditional list and I've found myself more concerned with time with this version, since once the games get to a certain point they just concede to PF lock.
With that being said, even with decent success with the list and a lot of aggro in my meta, I switched back to the legendary list.
"Attack with Order of the Ebon Hand."
"K, block with Jotun Grunt?"
"It has pro white."
"Swords?"
"It still has pro white."
Team OMRIAIGTWYFEWARTCAE Team RTD
Twitter: @shawnldewey
Cheers. Simply forgot 2 (got 38 spells). I guess adding a fetch and a plains would do.
PS: I do recommend the 2nd EtA.
My list from the coverage is actually wrong. I ran only 1 Wear/tear and 2 REB.
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