All B/R update speculation.

[Adryan]

Wouldn't Delver list just play Serum Visions or Preordain instead? Setting up a Delver with Brainstorm is okay, but rather the exception than the norm. The deck would lose power without Brainstorm, but I doubt would suddenly vanish from the meta.

Miracles only being able to put back drawn Terminus copies with Jacestorm seems like a huge blow to it since part of Terminus' power comes from being able to ignore clear Magic design rules due to being outlandishly cheap for its effect. And unlike Brainstorm, both Jace and SDT can be blocked by Revoker/Needle. But I can only speak from the perspective of a D&T player, but I'm certain Miracles would lose ground in this match-up due to this.

From a mathematic standpoint it's more likely that the Miracle player draws Terminus naturally from the Top of his library or finds it with SDT or Ponder etc. than having both Terminus and Brainstorm in his hand.

Anyways D&T is even with Brainstorm in Legacy already favored against Miracles, but of course Miracles has the advantage that it's more consistent than D&T. But consistency is not the king of Magic, otherwise no one would be playing Death and Taxes over Maverick which is more consistent than D&T.

My point is that banning anything from the current format that has existed for quite some time brings nothing good to the format. No new decks will spawn, no old decks will be played again, because the problems of Zoo, Maverick etc. are still there, even with Brainstorm being banned. It would only rearange the % of the DTBs. Is that really worth it?

And why take something good like consistency away from the format? Not overpowered consistency is fun, so why take consistency away when you can add consistency to those who lack it?

The reason why blue and Brainstorm is so much played is not because of consistency, it's because you have the best chance of beating any archetype. The problem is that blue has the best tools to fight combo decks by far.

[HSCK]

If Wizards is looking at attendance and the number of different decks performing worldwide I don't think that any bans will be coming in the near future.

[iamajellydonut]

So, getting off of this boring Brainstorm topic (bets on when it spawns again). It's been well generally established that Black Vice, Earthcraft, Hermit Druid and Mind Twist are probably the best picks for unbanning, but I had a more risque question...

What does everyone think about Balance seeing the light of day again?

[nedleeds]

WTF. Isn't a one mana super wrath enough? you want a 2 mana wrath a geddon twist? you've never played 4 x balance if you are mentioning unbanning balance.

[iamajellydonut]

WTF. Isn't a one mana super wrath enough? you want a 2 mana wrath a geddon twist? you've never played 4 x balance if you are mentioning unbanning balance.

I have and I did. Mostly I'm just tired of the Brainstorm trend and wanted to see thoughts on literally anything else. Miracles would obviously be the prime candidate for Balance (landed Jace? shit yeah), but do you think any other deck could abuse it enough to make Miracles' abuse look like child's play? Following a Liliana with Balance might have the potential to be even grosser.

[Megadeus]

Balance being unbanned is laughable. There is no way that was a serious suggestion right?

[Dice_Box]

I will say this, regardless of how I feel about the card, I think Wizards is starting to really take notice of it. If you look at the amount of hate bears printed of late you can see that they are starting to try and take action. A ban might very well be in the works, I don't know. But I will say, shots have been fired.

[Barook]

So, getting off of this boring Brainstorm topic (bets on when it spawns again).

Las Vegas has probably a "normal" metagame with only 4-5 BS decks in the Top 8 where people are going to claim that everything is fine, just to have Portland the week after punch them in the face again with a Top 8 having 6-8 BS decks. So I would give it two weeks.

I will say this, regardless of how I feel about the card, I think Wizards is starting to really take notice of it. If you look at the amount of hate bears printed of late you can see that they are starting to try and take action. A ban might very well be in the works, I don't know. But I will say, shots have been fired.

People love white weenies, that's why Wizards keeps printing them. Spirit of the Labyrinth is an obvious shot at Brainstorm, but if they had been really serious about hosing it, it would have had other stats, but Flash instead. A white "Counterspell" for cantrips with a body attached? Hell yeah, that's something that would have seriously hosed the powerlevel of cantrips in the format, but we aren't allowed to have nice things (like having stack interactions that are actually 100% in-color pie).

The funny part is that, according to the offical statement, Mental Misstep was banned because it made blue too good forced the format too much into being blue. Years later, and Brainstorm has done a job MM could only dream of.

[ahg113]

Why take consistency away? Why not add consistency to other colors? I think Green Suns Zenith is one of the best designed cards in the last 5 years.

While the intent is noble, the suggestion is short sighted. In no way is GSZ equal to brainstorm. While one is a tutor, sure, it can only grab green creatures, and works at sorcery speed. BS, is the ability to look at three new cards, or with a fetch, draw three new cards. GSZ also only works further in the game, as the spell scales with gameplay. BS is awesome from turn 1.

It's not taking consistency away, it's reducing. There are a slew of other cantrips, some at instant, others at sorcery. Unless we're gonna print incorrect off color cards such as BS in G, R, and W, this is faulty thinking. Faulty because the lament is take consistency away, when it's reduce it.

[btm10]

Las Vegas has probably a "normal" metagame with only 4-5 BS decks in the Top 8 where people are going to claim that everything is fine, just to have Portland the week after punch them in the face again with a Top 8 having 6-8 BS decks. So I would give it two weeks.


People love white weenies, that's why Wizards keeps printing them. Spirit of the Labyrinth is an obvious shot at Brainstorm, but if they had been really serious about hosing it, it would have had other stats, but Flash instead. A white "Counterspell" for cantrips with a body attached? Hell yeah, that's something that would have seriously hosed the powerlevel of cantrips in the format, but we aren't allowed to have nice things (like having stack interactions that are actually 100% in-color pie).

The funny part is that, according to the offical statement, Mental Misstep was banned because it made blue too good forced the format too much into being blue. Years later, and Brainstorm has done a job MM could only dream of.

I have two issues with this. First is that the notion of a "Brainstorm deck" isn't helpful because so many decks run it. It's the quintessential goodstuff card and facilitates a wide variety of strategies.

The second issue is that while the stated reason for banning Misstep was not merely ubiquity but also the fact that even otherwise monocolor decks were running it and it badly contorted deck building both by reducing the utility of CMC 1 spells and by taking up slots. Brainstorm isn't guilty of any of these offenses, because any deck that plays it makes a substantial commitment to Blue, because why wouldn't you? A deck with Brainstorm makes no pretense of being something else.

Finally, and unrelated, I'd be interested to see Wizards' actual market research data on how much people like hatebear/White weenie strategies vs. how much they like library manipulation. The kitchen table crowd probably agrees with you, but I'm not sure that competitive players as a group do.

[Barook]

I have two issues with this. First is that the notion of a "Brainstorm deck" isn't helpful because so many decks run it. It's the quintessential goodstuff card and facilitates a wide variety of strategies.

The second issue is that while the stated reason for banning Misstep was not merely ubiquity but also the fact that even otherwise monocolor decks were running it and it badly contorted deck building both by reducing the utility of CMC 1 spells and by taking up slots. Brainstorm isn't guilty of any of these offenses, because any deck that plays it makes a substantial commitment to Blue, because why wouldn't you? A deck with Brainstorm makes no pretense of being something else.

Finally, and unrelated, I'd be interested to see Wizards' actual market research data on how much people like hatebear/White weenie strategies vs. how much they like library manipulation. The kitchen table crowd probably agrees with you, but I'm not sure that competitive players as a group do.

FoW requires a substantial commitment to Blue, but for Brainstorm, it goes like this:

1) Does it run a bunch of shuffle effects, most prominently fetches?
2) Can it produce blue mana without being clunky, e.g. relying on DRS activations?
3) If "Yes" to both, include Brainstorm.

It's a no-brainer and always the first card to include if you even consider a blue splash. 70% of the meta is already alot of decks to run BS and it's impossible to go near 100%, simply because not all people have the cards to run blue, the wrong shell (e.g. Merfolk) or are simply not willing to play a BS deck. It's pretty near to auto-include status.

About the market research thing: What's the point? Wizards prints way more quality hate bears than quality library manipulation. You seem to imply that WW/casual and library manipulation/spike, but if that was the case, D&T wouldn't be a popular deck choice.

[Quasim0ff]

FoW requires a substantial commitment to Blue, but for Brainstorm, it goes like this:

1) Does it run a bunch of shuffle effects, most prominently fetches?
2) Can it produce blue mana without being clunky, e.g. relying on DRS activations?
3) If "Yes" to both, include Brainstorm.

It's a no-brainer and always the first card to include if you even consider a blue splash. 70% of the meta is already alot of decks to run BS and it's impossible to go near 100%, simply because not all people have the cards to run blue, the wrong shell (e.g. Merfolk) or are simply not willing to play a BS deck. It's pretty near to auto-include status.

About the market research thing: What's the point? Wizards prints way more quality hate bears than quality library manipulation. You seem to imply that WW/casual and library manipulation/spike, but if that was the case, D&T wouldn't be a popular deck choice.

That's not true. The UB Tezz list is mainly blue but would have NO interest in running Brainstorm.

[Barook]

That's not true. The UB Tezz list is mainly blue but would have NO interest in running Brainstorm.

See my point "wrong shell" - they run CotV AND not enough shuffle effects to support BS properly. They run a Polluted Delta, Transmute Artifact and maybe a few copies of the blue Tezzeret. That's hardly enough to support BS. Merfolk is also mainly blue and doesn't run it.

[btm10]

FoW requires a substantial commitment to Blue, but for Brainstorm, it goes like this:

1) Does it run a bunch of shuffle effects, most prominently fetches?
2) Can it produce blue mana without being clunky, e.g. relying on DRS activations?
3) If "Yes" to both, include Brainstorm.

It's a no-brainer and always the first card to include if you even consider a blue splash. 70% of the meta is already alot of decks to run BS and it's impossible to go near 100%, simply because not all people have the cards to run blue, the wrong shell (e.g. Merfolk) or are simply not willing to play a BS deck. It's pretty near to auto-include status.

About the market research thing: What's the point? Wizards prints way more quality hate bears than quality library manipulation. You seem to imply that WW/casual and library manipulation/spike, but if that was the case, D&T wouldn't be a popular deck choice.

I can't think of a single deck in Legacy that starts with 4 Brainstorm, or where the possibility of running Brainstorm pushed (or will push) it into running Blue no matter how well it would fit into the shell. The closest thing I can think of is 4-color Cascade, but that deck worse than June and runs blue first and foremost to support Shardless Agent. Delver strategies start with 4 Delver or the whole tempo package (which admittedly includes Brainstorm, but would probably not be substantially worse if it were forced to run Preordain), Miracles starts with Top, Shardless starts with Shardless and cortorts its deckbuilding around it. Sneak and Show starts with its namesakes, and Storm starts with fast mana, though if cantrips are actually more important I'll admit that I'm wrong on that one. This leaves Deathblade as the only deck I can think of that probably does start with 4 Brainstorm because it needs to hold its terrible manabase together with both hands. Am I denying that Brainstorm is extremely powerful? No. But I think you're dramatically overstating the case for banning it, which will hurt format diversity in the end and reduce Legacy to Modern with older cards.

[Barook]

I can't think of a single deck in Legacy that starts with 4 Brainstorm, or where the possibility of running Brainstorm pushed (or will push) it into running Blue no matter how well it would fit into the shell. The closest thing I can think of is 4-color Cascade, but that deck worse than June and runs blue first and foremost to support Shardless Agent. Delver strategies start with 4 Delver or the whole tempo package (which admittedly includes Brainstorm, but would probably not be substantially worse if it were forced to run Preordain), Miracles starts with Top, Shardless starts with Shardless and cortorts its deckbuilding around it. Sneak and Show starts with its namesakes, and Storm starts with fast mana, though if cantrips are actually more important I'll admit that I'm wrong on that one. This leaves Deathblade as the only deck I can think of that probably does start with 4 Brainstorm because it needs to hold its terrible manabase together with both hands. Am I denying that Brainstorm is extremely powerful? No. But I think you're dramatically overstating the case for banning it, which will hurt format diversity in the end and reduce Legacy to Modern with older cards.

Way to misread my post which was about the commitment to blue when you run Brainstorm. I didn't say that people start with Brainstorm when building their whole deck, but it's the first card that they'll include if they splash blue if they can fulfill the rather easy requirements. That's why the meta penetration is already so high.

About the bolded part: Are you really saying that Legacy = "Brainstorm, the Format" and Legacy without it would be an equivalent to Modern, completely ignoring all the other cards Legacy has to offer? That's ludicrous.

[Zombie]

Way to misread my post which was about the commitment to blue when you run Brainstorm. I didn't say that people start with Brainstorm when building their whole deck, but it's the first card that they'll include if they splash blue if they can fulfill the rather easy requirements. That's why the meta penetration is already so high.

About the bolded part: Are you really saying that Legacy = "Brainstorm, the Format" and Legacy without it would be an equivalent to Modern, completely ignoring all the other cards Legacy has to offer? That's ludicrous.

Well if you read some posts this and last page, you ban Brainstorm and all archetypes spontaneously combust and cease to exist, so it'll be Modern with, uh, Jund and Elves and White Hatebears Inc. that are really good instead of kinda crummy?

[Lemnear]

Well if you read some posts this and last page, you ban Brainstorm and all archetypes spontaneously combust and cease to exist, so it'll be Modern with, uh, Jund and Elves and White Hatebears Inc. that are really good instead of kinda crummy?

Imo it would be Belcher vs. UWR Delver/SFM vs. Jund. D&T/Elves would be obsolete if losing it's prey and getting slapped left and right from Belcher and Punishing Fire.

[Dice_Box]

Way to misread my post which was about the commitment to blue when you run Brainstorm. I didn't say that people start with Brainstorm when building their whole deck, but it's the first card that they'll include if they splash blue if they can fulfill the rather easy requirements. That's why the meta penetration is already so high.

About the bolded part: Are you really saying that Legacy = "Brainstorm, the Format" and Legacy without it would be an equivalent to Modern, completely ignoring all the other cards Legacy has to offer? That's ludicrous.

Elves splashed Blue, added Swan Song...

[HammerAndSickled]

Bringing up the point of why Elves doesn't play Brainstorm, if the arguments above about its ubiquity are true...

[btm10]

Way to misread my post which was about the commitment to blue when you run Brainstorm. I didn't say that people start with Brainstorm when building their whole deck, but it's the first card that they'll include if they splash blue if they can fulfill the rather easy requirements. That's why the meta penetration is already so high.

About the bolded part: Are you really saying that Legacy = "Brainstorm, the Format" and Legacy without it would be an equivalent to Modern, completely ignoring all the other cards Legacy has to offer? That's ludicrous.

Even with misreading your post, my point still stands - no one is splashing blue for Brainstorm in top decks unless there's something happening in the D&T or Elves builds that I haven't noticed. The top decks are almost exclusively blue-based already, making a splash moot - and Brainstorm has far less to do with that than do Delver, cantrips, and countermagic, so even weakening the cantrip package available to blue decks wouldn't change blue's dominance unless it was accompanied by either banning an additional blue card or unbanning a powerful nonblue card that doesn't play well with countermagic, Delver, or cantrips. Banning Brainstorm probably wouldn't demolish Delver completely, but it would probably solidify BUG as the best variant by simultaneously making discard better and making the all-in tempo plan worse. As Lemnear has pointed out, a BS ban would hurt Storm and probably aid Belcher, which likely weakens non-Elves combo overall. The resultant slower format would be substantially more creature-centric, and hence a lot more like Modern in feel.

I've stated this before, but I got into Legacy because it was Vintage-light and I could find more places to play and more people to play with than I could in Vintage. I've thoroughly enjoyed the format and so I've continued playing, but a Brainstorm ban would confirm a lot of people's worries that Legacy is drifting more towards Modern-heavy rather than Vintage-light, and that takes a lot of the fun out of the format. Right now we have an objectively diverse format with a ton of truly viable decks. Why constrict the tactical pool because a lot of people have latched onto a a powerful spell that doesn't make the games less fun, less interactive, or less skill-intensive?