[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils) Storm Combo

[Sloshthedark]

would you keep this hand against ant on the draw?
i did and lost because ant gives a shit on 2 thoughtseize and a random elf :D

I won't, maybe if it was DRS, you simply have to try do your thing => NO->Ruric or Glipse Chain, hope to hit some hate in the process and not die in the meantime I believe, these hands are dead ends... you're a storm and elf player you should know better... btw. why don't you play Cabal Therapy instead of duress? It's the card I fear most out of elves elves personaly...

Hello fellow Stormers,

Can you guys give your input on the Sneak and Show MU? I have a friend that makes it seems like it's like 90-10 in their favor or something pretty bad every time we talk about it when at worst, for me at least, it has been 55-45 in their favor. 50-50 when they have no leyline to bring in postboard. So I guess I want to know how good, bad, or even this matchup is and what sort of approach should be taken when playing ANT against Sneak and Show.

EDIT: My friend also thinks that Xantid Swarm is not good enough for the matchups we usually bring it in for, which is usually Griselbrand combo decks. He says that it is too slow and a lot has to go right for your for it to be effective. I am a bit skeptical as I feel like Xantid Swarm makes Griselbrand not an auto-win. I also just don't know what other cards I would bring in against sneak and show and reanimator aside from flusterstorm, karakas, graveyard hate, etc. I would appreciate your guys' input on this as well.

- Removed Flames - I agree with Robert... you could simplify it to - they show you Emrakul = you win, Griselbrand = they win .. sometimes one or the other breaks this rule, but active disruption is better then passive protection they have... I'd add 3 observations - S+T players tend to be worse players in general, Swansong is a joke vs. Cabal Therapy, Leyline of Sanctity is not as good as it looks, they have to keep/mulligan just becase of Leyline or draw them later... if they have Leyline and T2 Show the loss is perfectly acceptable... Xantid Swarm is very good, Pithing Needle is also decent... I personaly enjoy this matchup thou I've lost my last one in Prague Eternal - G1 he starts, Probes and Shows me Emrakul T1, I still can kill him my turn 2 on 1 life but he obv BS into a SP... G2 I draw just lands few turns, eventualy I still can ~50% kill him through Griselbrand if I draw a CT (due to Swansong token) obv. it waits on the top of my deck the turn I don't get after I take 22...


@Robert - as the Prague Eternal vids are up, I don't understand this situation in the Merfolk match (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylTa_06gxFM around 24 min)...the turn you get Cliqued, why do you go for it? and why do you show your hand to your opponent? If I haven't missed anything you cannot win this turn (leading with DR you pay for 2x dazefish leaves you with XS in hand, with your line Opp lets the CoV resolve and sacs both Cursecatcher countering your DR, if he rips a land you're practicaly dead with CotV on 2, still with LED and Swarm in play it might be worth the risk), Opp fucked up by fighting over the CoV and then you can win but decide not to (DR in response - pay 1-2 Cursecatcher, you have 8 cards in GY and he cannot pop Relic)... I don't get it... the next turn you can still lose was Opp playing it right, I know Jonas as a good player, but he should have clearly fought over the CR by tapping relic - you need to respond with another CR or with 3rd CR to 2nd CR due to Relic pop, get bottlenecked on mana and ToA just for 18...



@2 PIF - Once again... 2 PIF is incredible, I'm playing it for ~2 years and haven't looked back, I also used to have Ad Nauseam main, when TES started to prefer EtW I did the same and did not play Ad Nauseam at all, now I have 1 SB because of DRS+Hymn decks and Elves

[CabalTherapy]

@Robert - as the Prague Eternal vids are up, I don't understand this situation in the Merfolk match (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ylTa_06gxFM around 24 min)...the turn you get Cliqued, why do you go for it? and why do you show your hand to your opponent? If I haven't missed anything you cannot win this turn (leading with DR you pay for 2x dazefish leaves you with XS in hand, with your line Opp lets the CoV resolve and sacs both Cursecatcher countering your DR, if he rips a land you're practicaly dead with CotV on 2, still with LED and Swarm in play it might be worth the risk), Opp fucked up by fighting over the CoV and then you can win but decide not to (DR in response - pay 1-2 Cursecatcher, you have 8 cards in GY and he cannot pop Relic)... I don't get it... the next turn you can still lose was Opp playing it right, I know Jonas as a good player, but he should have clearly fought over the CR by tapping relic - you need to respond with another CR or with 3rd CR to 2nd CR due to Relic pop, get bottlenecked on mana and ToA just for 18...

You are absolutely right. As soon as I played Chain on the Chalice I realized that this was a mistake, since Chalice on 2 (or even on 1) would have been devestating. Eventually, I failed to see the line with the Ritual as I was looking at my cards. I guess it would have been too easy to just make that move, since I was focused on that Chalice-CoV move. After the match I talked to Carsten about the play which was some kind of unnecessary as we both noticed.

In the second game I was surprised that he let my Cabal Rituals resove with threshold. I was aware of the fact that I had to react with my other Rituals in hand to generate as much mana as possible but he let them resolve one after the other.

[Patrunkenphat7]

@Sloth:
It sounds like we are playing similar lists. This is my current list +1 Past in Flames, -1 Preordain. Empty main is so much better than Ad Nauseam against Delver Tempo strategies:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65497

[Sloshthedark]

G2

Ok, I see, happens.. I find the G2 really interesting decisionwise, also Jonas's brew was pretty strange

@Sloth:
It sounds like we are playing similar lists. This is my current list +1 Past in Flames, -1 Preordain. Empty main is so much better than Ad Nauseam against Delver Tempo strategies:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=65497

yeah I know I've posted mine, a bit more experimental list earlier few times (http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post792983, MD still the same), I actually wanted to congratulate you and comment on you list, but haven't had much time lately to spend on discussions... I don't like only 3 Therapies (because synergy with EtW/XS is awesome) and 2 islands (I'd prefer a Trop/Badlands or Bayou here... you have the opportunity to play "perfect" 10 fetches I'd love to play, but I'm to deep into red and grindy plan to do so) in your list ... also are you happy with 4 Duress MD? I switched to Thoughtseize because more hatebears are present and the deck's partial indepence on lifepoints G1, and you have those in SB anyway... but I do not have much experience with 8+ discard plans

[Patrunkenphat7]

Sloth:
Thanks!

Therapy obviously has a huge upside with Empty and just in general, but I was finding I wanted to maximize consistency. I almost always wanted to cast Therapy after a Probe, Duress, or Tseize, and double Therapy without any of those cards is annoying. I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to play all 4, and I think it generally depends on how you view your matchups. I generally feel like I can beat most popular matchups without the raw power of Cabal Therapy, so I want a little more consistency of seeing their hand. As for Tseize vs Duress main, I give the edge to Duress because of Delver decks. It's a pretty big difference in those matchups. If you have a specific metagame of something like 20% Death and Taxes, definitely play some Tseize main. I think Death and Taxes is an easy matchup in 3 games though; they can always steal 1 here and there with hatebears, but it's hard to lose 2 of 3.

I really like my manabase with the basics because of Tempo decks where you never want to see a dual land. You can easily swap in the SB Trop in matchups where you need it. The basic lands are one of my favorite things about this particular version of Storm, and I think it single-handledly makes this deck better than TES against a lot of strategies.

[Sloshthedark]

Sloth:
Thanks!

Therapy obviously has a huge upside with Empty and just in general, but I was finding I wanted to maximize consistency. I almost always wanted to cast Therapy after a Probe, Duress, or Tseize, and double Therapy without any of those cards is annoying. I wouldn't blame anyone for wanting to play all 4, and I think it generally depends on how you view your matchups. I generally feel like I can beat most popular matchups without the raw power of Cabal Therapy, so I want a little more consistency of seeing their hand. As for Tseize vs Duress main, I give the edge to Duress because of Delver decks. It's a pretty big difference in those matchups. If you have a specific metagame of something like 20% Death and Taxes, definitely play some Tseize main. I think Death and Taxes is an easy matchup in 3 games though; they can always steal 1 here and there with hatebears, but it's hard to lose 2 of 3.

I really like my manabase with the basics because of Tempo decks where you never want to see a dual land. You can easily swap in the SB Trop in matchups where you need it. The basic lands are one of my favorite things about this particular version of Storm, and I think it single-handledly makes this deck better than TES against a lot of strategies.

Well I haven't had much problem with blind CT, I think winning otherwise unwinnable situations payed off and I feel I really want one after EtW an my usual plan against Threshold involved -2TS -GT + 3 XSwarm

on TS lifeloss I can see 2 Grim Tutors might play different... You kind of inspired me into finaly getting second GT (it was long time on my wantlist but getting foil jap shit I dont play first sound logical, you know...) I love how I return basicaly to the same list I played around GP Amsterdam :) ... In my LGS I face mostly Delver decks a D+T or hatebear deck (Ghostquarter, Arbiter, SoL D+T) just time to time, I also find having option to strip Delver T1 relevant, with the 2 PIF+EtW configuration I find delver decks pretty good in overall, UWR is practically unlosable without T1 delver, Threshold is very positive, BURG even (dependes on build), UBG winable...

I'd disagree, I'd say you like to see more lands, I fetch basics only when necessary (autoloss to waste, having other basic already or I know they have Wasteland and I mind it), with the basics first policy you often lead yourself to awkward situations where you have to fetch just more of them, sometimes you need more of a specific color (and in fact you're virtually wastelanded) or need to play dual or nothing (losing the land anyway) or have a fetch that does not get a Swamp... too many problems alltogether imo, and when you have to lead with a dual land - ponder and see the Island as your only other land (that was the point my 2 island career ended forever)... of course is that works that's completely fine, just my reasoning why I dislike 2 islands... I'd say my reason not to play TES is better consistency due to more shuffle effects (therefore my desire to 10 fetches) and stronger lategame

[sawatarix]

Videos from Prague Eternal Top8 are up, check them out.
The links are in my tournament report:

http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...709#post821709

[nevilshute]

Sweet to see the video (only seen the semis so far). You're such an evil sturm player Kai He spell snares your tutor "okay, then you're dead" hehe.

On a serious note, I would call that quite the misplay for him to snare that tutor. He knows that you know about the counter magic in his hand. Aside from that, most opponents I face know that it's hardly ever correct to fire off a counter spell on a non-hellbent tutor. I also think he got way too aggressive on his second turn where he tapped his only coloured mana source (a volcanic) to cast his second delver with a hand of snare and pyroblast (and force). A single delver can get him there and he just basically sped you up by turn by allowing you to Brainstorm which would otherwise had been snap-pyroblasted.

PS: beautiful deck man!

[sawatarix]

that's another thing i love about this deck:
all your spells can possibly be discard spells.
just give your opponent a sign that this [for example non-hellbent tutor] is super relevant for future turns and he'll probably counter it.You have to confuse and mislead your opponent to get maximum value out of your cards and that's actually crucial if you want to master storm.

this strategy also works with ritual effects:
sometimes i cast a dark ritual or even led to bait a taxcounterspell such as spell pierce or flusterstorm and then simply pass the turn to combo off next turn.

man i really love this deck :D

[Zombie]

well done my friend ,i should stop playing decks without brainstorms i guess.

playing elves against ant feels so miserable and i don't have any clue how to beat the deck.
i boarded in 4 thoughtseize 3 duress 2 flusterstorm and 1 null rod (10 cards) and i still lost.
in g3 my last opening hand was interesting:

2 thoughtseize
1 nettle sentinel
4 lands

Your hand wasn't interesting, it was a piece of crap :P
Would you keep:
4 lands
1 Petal
2 Duress

As ANT against anyone ever? Probably not. Same deal with that Elves hand. You need action, especially in fast matchups like the combo mirror.

that's another thing i love about this deck:
all your spells can possibly be discard spells.
just give your opponent a sign that this [for example non-hellbent tutor] is super relevant for future turns and he'll probably counter it.You have to confuse and mislead your opponent to get maximum value out of your cards and that's actually crucial if you want to master storm.

this strategy also works with ritual effects:
sometimes i cast a dark ritual or even led to bait a taxcounterspell such as spell pierce or flusterstorm and then simply pass the turn to combo off next turn.

man i really love this deck :D

Glimpse is the best Hymn in the game :P
The threat value of spells in combo is delicious for baiting counters. It's a really sweet feeling to pull that kind of stunt off. Once in German Highlander I had a line like Demonic? Got countered? Good, I would've just gotten discard anyway. Fun stuff. Which reminds me that I need to sleeve up ANT for a con this weekend.

[Said-In-Contest]

I was wondering about siding more tendrils vs miracle. I'm intrigued by that idea.
Unfortunately I'm finding really challenging the "board out" part of that plan
I mean, we need 3 Decay for sure. A couple of Xantid Swarm usually get in (rally need to avoid counter on top of library + sensei because in my area everyone plays like that and there are billions of Flusterstorm). Then we need to put in like 2 tendrils
Those are 7 cards!!!!
I usually board like this

VS MIRACLE 5
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Preordain

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Xantid Swarm

How can I make room also for 2 more tendrils??
I play the same list as Kai, just in case you need a main deck reference.
Thank you everyone for the collaboration!

[CabalTherapy]

I was wondering about siding more tendrils vs miracle. I'm intrigued by that idea.
Unfortunately I'm finding really challenging the "board out" part of that plan
I mean, we need 3 Decay for sure. A couple of Xantid Swarm usually get in (rally need to avoid counter on top of library + sensei because in my area everyone plays like that and there are billions of Flusterstorm). Then we need to put in like 2 tendrils
Those are 7 cards!!!!
I usually board like this

VS MIRACLE 5
-2 Gitaxian Probe
-1 Cabal Therapy
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 Preordain

+3 Abrupt Decay
+2 Xantid Swarm

How can I make room also for 2 more tendrils??
I play the same list as Kai, just in case you need a main deck reference.
Thank you everyone for the collaboration!

Against decks which don't attack you manabase, you can board out the lone Swamp.
Further, Lotus Petal and LED are not the best cards against Miracles, since there is no need to deploy fast mana. And fast mana does not equal business spells.
I certainly like Cabal Ritual more, although it might get caught by RiP.

[Said-In-Contest]

Against decks which don't attack you manabase, you can board out the lone Swamp.
Further, Lotus Petal and LED are not the best cards against Miracles, since there is no need to deploy fast mana. And fast mana does not equal business spells.
I certainly like Cabal Ritual more, although it might get caught by RiP.

Rip is surely a card I need to respect post board IMHO.
So basically with your tips this is the sideboarding plan vs miracles

-2 gitaxian
-1 Preordain
-1 Therapy
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 swamp
-1 lotus petal / LED

+3 decay
+2 Xantid
+2 tendrils

Seems ok? I'm asking to those who have already tried this plan, and not only for the ins and outs, but also for some opinions...like if it works or not ah ah ah

Also, if I happen to have a second SDT in the side, would be worth cutting even the second preordain (so we get rid of the both of them) to add SDT number 2?
I mean, the match up gets grind 80% of the time, so maybe a late game card like top would be better than the lonely preordain....seems fair?

[nevilshute]

Rip is surely a card I need to respect post board IMHO.
So basically with your tips this is the sideboarding plan vs miracles

-2 gitaxian
-1 Preordain
-1 Therapy
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 swamp
-1 lotus petal / LED

+3 decay
+2 Xantid
+2 tendrils

Seems ok? I'm asking to those who have already tried this plan, and not only for the ins and outs, but also for some opinions...like if it works or not ah ah ah

Also, if I happen to have a second SDT in the side, would be worth cutting even the second preordain (so we get rid of the both of them) to add SDT number 2?
I mean, the match up gets grind 80% of the time, so maybe a late game card like top would be better than the lonely preordain....seems fair?

Empty the Warrens is also a card in this matchup. Yes they might have an EE and ruin your day, but you are putting them in a very tight spot to find it. After board I have two Tendrils and one Empty in my 60. Empty is especially handy when trying to combo off through a Flusterstorm. Flusterstorm my 7 copies of Empty? Oh, okay, I guess I'll crack these two LEDs that you allowed me to cast and pay for 6 of them. 12 gobbos, deal with it!

[sawatarix]

second senseis Devining Top is great,all in !
it's actually such a huge card in this particular matchup and acts sometimes like a duress-effect (gets hardcountered)


martin:
i wouldn't be so aggressive with empty the warrens as i refuse to loose to one engineered explosives or random terminus.

can imagine to cast it from hand for lets say just 4-8 goblins and see if if our opponent can deal those guys.meanwhile sculpt a hand for the real combo (pif,ad nauseam).
only all-in moves if you can win on the spot,otherwise grind.

***empty the warrens would have been great during Prague by the way.most of my delver opponents had no copy of any massremoval spell,just grim lavamancer who does nothing against green men***

[Sloshthedark]

Rip is surely a card I need to respect post board IMHO.
So basically with your tips this is the sideboarding plan vs miracles

-2 gitaxian
-1 Preordain
-1 Therapy
-1 Cabal Ritual
-1 swamp
-1 lotus petal / LED

+3 decay
+2 Xantid
+2 tendrils

Seems ok? I'm asking to those who have already tried this plan, and not only for the ins and outs, but also for some opinions...like if it works or not ah ah ah

Also, if I happen to have a second SDT in the side, would be worth cutting even the second preordain (so we get rid of the both of them) to add SDT number 2?
I mean, the match up gets grind 80% of the time, so maybe a late game card like top would be better than the lonely preordain....seems fair?

I'd modify the plan a bit
- discard other than therapy (because of XS, CT better in long game)
- DR ( 1CC is sure thing in CB, 2 is not, +extra mana for double ToA)
- Preordains
- petal
- island (depends on build but the more B you have in your combo turn the better, espec if you play Trop as you G land of choice)
- ponder/probe ( 2 probe is too much, free spell is good spell)
- something depends on the list might be IT, another discard, Another Ponder (if you have SDT), maybe Led, petal

+ your stuff ( i personaly think 3 stormspells is enough)
+ Empty if you have it ( there on play I'd change dr/cr, -decay, keep in mana artifacts, on play)

EtW won most fast games vs. miracles for me, on the other hand last I played PE finalist I had 12+ EtW T1 with discard backup both games and still lost to Terminus/EE... (Need to be sad I punted hard lategame thus losing)

[Said-In-Contest]

Disgusting afternoon...I've been testing vs miracles with my previous considerations...got owned 1-5...
3 games pre board...lose the first to top+balance...tried to cone back, but no chance. Game 2 I won on turn 3 after double discard...need to say that my opponent mulled to 6 and had a "not so great hand". Poor game 3.
Then the sideboard games.
Top was awesome! That was the only positive thing.
One game I just could't do anything...he had it all.
One game I bedew to play pox style, destroying his hand of 2 balance, Flusterstorm, double brainstorm lands.
Tried a natural tendrils in uber late game, but wasn't enough...he used a plow on snapcaster and survived...
Final game I had a good opener: sensei, therapy, gitaxian, decay, cabal ritual, 2 lands. Lost like an asshole without being able to find more rituals or storm engines...

I have been a little unlucky, that needs to be said. But still I find the match up very boring vs experienced miracle players...
Any suggestions for me? Maybe some tips on how to approach the matchup...stuff like that.
I've been playing the deck for some times, and this is my most frustrating matchup!
Thank you all!!

[Togores]

As told u, 2 sensei are really mvp main.

usualy vs miracles I side out the island and not the swamp cause during the game I can play with island but during combo turn I want 2 black IMS at least


I side in the random burning wish and the second tendrills vs miracles but still have the empty on my side board for making a random wish for it if necesary.


Also KAI

http://youtu.be/uKzIYS4tZI0?t=27m12s


On this video on the combo turn. after u crack 1st led u have 3 mana, then u infernal and have 1 mana and crack second led and add 4 mana instead of 3. I dont think is a cheet cause U had enought mana to pay for pierce all time. But would like to know if there is something I misscounted or U thought wrong when adding the mana.


MFG

[d0nkey]

As told u, 2 sensei are really mvp main.

Also KAI

http://youtu.be/uKzIYS4tZI0?t=27m12s


On this video on the combo turn. after u crack 1st led u have 3 mana, then u infernal and have 1 mana and crack second led and add 4 mana instead of 3. I dont think is a cheet cause U had enought mana to pay for pierce all time. But would like to know if there is something I misscounted or U thought wrong when adding the mana.


MFG

I had to watch that part again and I'm pretty sure he miscounted. But he also did it again in the top8

[sawatarix]

wow, indeed. thank you guys.
this mana miscoutning was not intended,i think i just forgot to remove the dice with 1 black mana i guess.
the best way to count mana and stormcount is to grab a god damn pen and a sheet of paper.

ps: still waiting for a power-led which provides 4 mana instead of 3 :D