[Deck] Goblins

[GoboLord]

What are the odds that this deck is simply too archaic to perform well consistently in scg opens. Why so few top8s? Are the newer decks simply more powerful more consistently? It seems that this thread has gotten kinda stale, talking in circles with very little innovation. Are people really considering goblin settler in their 60? Maybe im totally off and maybe someone can prove otherwise about the downward spiral this deck has seem to been taking for a while now.

The "downward spiral" of goblins is build on the words of people that don't actually play the deck. Everyone I know who is playing the deck regulary is booking good results. Goblins is, like most legacy decks, about mastery and working out the details. You can't expect above average results if people keep copying and net-decking out-dated decklists.
This thread is appreas to be stale because, as jrw1985 pointed out, we didn't get anything interesting in the last few sets. And if we get new toys, people are so eagerly testing this stuff that conclusions can be drawn pretty quickly about wether or not something is playable.

GoboLord, if you are on mono red now, what do you do for the combo matchups? I find it hard to believe that Chalice alone is enough. Sorry if you've posted about this already.

Part of the reason why I switched to mono-red is that my local meta is all about Delver, Midrange and Control decks. We hardly see any combo decks around here. Chalice alone i not enough, of course, but I keep playing it regardless, since it is the most powerful and most flexible SB card we have. It can ocassionally take out Delver/Burn decks, Elves and such. I need to work on my SB before I attend the next tournament but I can see myself playing Thorn of Amethyst and Relic of Progenitus alongside with Chalice. Thorn is about the second-best anti-combo card we can run in monored and I usually don't need many SB slots against non-combo decks (partly because there are so few effective SB card outside the combo-MU, and partly because we just don't need additional SB cards against decks like Jund, BUG and Patriot).

Here is a rough sketch of what I would play in my local meta

4 Chalice
3 Thorns
2 Pithing Needle (not because I'm convinced, but because people keep telling me it is good)
2 Relic
2 Dismember
1 Boartusk Liege
1 Tuktuk Scrapper

//EDIT: Comment on the red part
On sunday I brought my ANT deck to a tournament and I lost one game because I couldn't get rid of Eidolon of the Great Revel. So, I have to admit that this card might actually be flat out better than Thorn of Amethyst, because of it's body ( the same reason Thalia is better than Thorn). I guess I have to test that.

[Olaf Forkbeard]

The thread has gotten stale because there just aren't enough Goblin cards to make things interesting. You can go ahead and playtest all the 4-drops you want; they still won't win you the game without the basic Lackey/Vial engine working. We need better 1 and 2-drops that allow us to win without Lackey/Vial, but there are no 1-or-2-drops being overlooked (except Goblin Skycutter). WotC is clearly not interested in printing interesting Goblins that cost less than 2R.

I strongly agree, though I do want to ask about Goblin Skycutter. The reason he has not been play-tested is simply because he is too narrow, are you implying the assumption is wrong? I don't mean to belittle your argument, I'm actually curious. It seems to me that it only bothers Delver of Secrets and Vendilion Clique. On the assumption it is for the former is your implication that we simply need to make the Delver match-up better? I mean, I could understand that, as Delver appears to be a large portion of the Top 8's. I just want to know your thinking. Or maybe I read too far..

[Zupponn]

//EDIT: Comment on the red part
On sunday I brought my ANT deck to a tournament and I lost one game because I couldn't get rid of Eidolon of the Great Revel. So, I have to admit that this card might actually be flat out better than Thorn of Amethyst, because of it's body ( the same reason Thalia is better than Thorn). I guess I have to test that.

I was testing Eidolon in Goblins for a bit a little while back. Here's the list I was using:

4x Eidolon of the Great Revel
4x Gempalm Incinerator
4x Goblin Lackey
4x Goblin Matron
4x Goblin Ringleader
4x Goblin Warchief
3x Goblin Piledriver
1x Goblin Sharpshooter
1x Krenko, Mob Boss
1x Siege-Gang Commander
1x Stingscourger

2x Tarfire

4x AEther Vial

4x Cavern of Souls
11x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

The idea behind the list was to just take a basic Goblin shell and replace Mogg War Marshall with the Eidolon. The biggest issue that I ran into was that the non-goblin RR cost of Eidolon was brutal on the manabase. Eidolon itself seemed very good almost all the time, but I abandoned the idea because of the mana issues.

[Chatto]

I was testing Eidolon in Goblins for a bit a little while back. Here's the list I was using:

(...)
4x Cavern of Souls
11x Mountain
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland

The idea behind the list was to just take a basic Goblin shell and replace Mogg War Marshall with the Eidolon. The biggest issue that I ran into was that the non-goblin RR cost of Eidolon was brutal on the manabase. Eidolon itself seemed very good almost all the time, but I abandoned the idea because of the mana issues.

Seems to me Eidolon could have a home in WInstogator-build. Your build would indeed have problems with RR. A WInstigator-build would/ should not have that problem, because of dropping Ports in favor of Chrome Mox and/ or extra red-mana sources. I'm not sure if maindecking is the way to go, although I can definately see it's impact against many decks. I can see me testing it as an SB-slot, though.

[Lt. Quattro]

Has this bad boy been given any serious thought?



It has the same draw backs as other goblins (needs haste, is a lightning rod) but there are many upsides.

Its a drop
Only one in its casting cost
Generates card advantage by eating other creatures
From onslaught block

[potatodavid]

The deck has so few top 8s because it has become extremely inconsistent. It is susceptible to Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. Those cards have done a fine job of negating Lackey and Aether Vial. Without Lackey and Vial consistently cheating Gobbos into play the deck actually needs to hardcast cards. This makes the deck more susceptible to Wasteland than just about any deck in the format because of our extremely high curve and reliance upon non-basics. Having the highest curve used to not matter because we could cheat everything into play, and that allowed us to have janky-ass manabases and rock Waste+Port+Cavern. Well, we can't cheat stuff into play consistently anymore, so the manabase and high curve are liabilities. Also, when our opponents' Wastelands become better our Wastelands become much, much worse.

The thread has gotten stale because there just aren't enough Goblin cards to make things interesting. You can go ahead and playtest all the 4-drops you want; they still won't win you the game without the basic Lackey/Vial engine working. We need better 1 and 2-drops that allow us to win without Lackey/Vial, but there are no 1-or-2-drops being overlooked (except Goblin Skycutter). WotC is clearly not interested in printing interesting Goblins that cost less than 2R.

I could go on, and I probably will later, but I'd better get back to work now.

WOTC in general is not interested in helping the legacy format at all.

[Mystical_Jackass]

Hypothetically, what kind of 1-3 drop could WoTC print that would turn the tide for goblins? A Fire Imp Goblin? Shroud? Just a 4/4 fatty? More evasion? A better "Mogg War Marshal" card to generate tokens?

[Lejay]

Hypothetically, what kind of 1-3 drop could WoTC print that would turn the tide for goblins? A Fire Imp Goblin? Shroud? Just a 4/4 fatty? More evasion? A better "Mogg War Marshal" card to generate tokens?

In my opinion a good pro green goblin (possibly piledriver like but not necessarily). A guy that blocks / bypasses fatties and is immune to decay is all I need to play the deck again.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Hypothetically, what kind of 1-3 drop could WoTC print that would turn the tide for goblins?

A 2/2 Goblin for or that gives other goblins +1/+1 would go a long way.
It lets us attack profitably through a turn 1 DRS (on the play) or SFM.

We just need a way to reliably connect with Lackey... F**king Squires!

[cooljets]

^ ^ It's called Tarfire y'all.

Personally, I think the deck is very potent as is, and I almost prefer that they don't print any new powerful goblins right now as I like how our deck is running under the radar and most people at big tournaments don't expect to see us.

I really can't stress it enough, try the mox/winstigator/chieftain/tarfire/kiki-jiki list if you haven't, it really is the best build at this point.

[GoboLord]

^ ^ It's called Tarfire y'all.

Personally, I think the deck is very potent as is, and I almost prefer that they don't print any new powerful goblins right now as I like how our deck is running under the radar and most people at big tournaments don't expect to see us.

I really can't stress it enough, try the mox/winstigator/chieftain/tarfire/kiki-jiki list if you haven't, it really is the best build at this point.

+1



I probably should add that these people

Everyone I know who is playing the deck regulary is booking good results.

are playing Winstigator builds....

[LeoCop 90]

In my opinion a good pro green goblin (possibly piledriver like but not necessarily). A guy that blocks / bypasses fatties and is immune to decay is all I need to play the deck again.

Yes, a true-name goblin would be good XD

[potatodavid]

Christmas Land Goblin

3/1 protection from green.

When it comes into play Destroy target artifact.



That would solve everything.

[M+1]

I am not sure what the point is, but if we are just throwing coins in the wishing well, I would like a fixed Ember Hauler that sacs for 0 mana, i.e. a super Fanatic.

[Zombiesquisher]

Christmas Land Goblin

3/1 protection from green.

When it comes into play Destroy target artifact.



That would solve everything.

Make it a 2/1 and two mana to fill our 2 drop spot and it would be better. Hell maybe push it and make it a 3/1 for 2?

[L10]

I honestly think that many of the part-time Goblin players has converted to D&T after it starting to win tournaments early last year. It helps that D&T is relatively cheap to build if you already have the full set of Wastelands and Rishadan Ports. Heck, even I have a D&T build that I can use if I feel like it.

If I had the power to create any one card for Goblins, it'd probably be this:

Name: Shock-shifter
Cost: R
Type: Creature - Shapeshifter
Pow/Tgh: (1/1)
Rules Text: Changeling. When Shock-shifter enters the battlefield, it may deal 2 damage to target creature or player.

This gives us a 1 CMC option with a body. It deals two damages to deal with DRS. It has changeling so it may still be used when Cavern is set to human (Thalia/Ethersworn Canonist) or elves (Reclamation Sage).

Regardless, I am happy with the current state of Goblins. I really do not want it to see win another SCG Open, mainly because I don't want the deck to be hated against. It is bad enough that the answers for D&T and TNN happens to affect us too. I am still having success and happy with the traditional build.

4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Mountain
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Bloodstained Mire
1 Wooded Foothills
1 Taiga
1 Plateau
1 Arid Mesa

4 Aether Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

4 Mogg War Marshal
4 Goblin Warchief
4 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Tin Street Hooligan
1 Tarfire
1 Stingscourger
1 Skirk Prospector
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Krenko, Mob Boss
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Piledriver
1 Goblin Chieftain

1 Ethersworn Canonist
3 Electrickery [Pyrokinesis]
3 Reclamation Sage
3 Relic of Progenitus
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 FLEX [Ashen Rider|Mindbreak Trap|Pithing Needle]

If I expect S&T, I'd side in the Ashen Rider. Else if I expect Storm, I'd side in Mindbreak Trap. Else, I'd side in Pithing Needle.
Electrickery is geat against Storm, Elves, D&T, and the like. So far, I am really liking Electrickery over Pyrokinesis in the current meta. Pyrokinesis is still very good.
I also REALLY like Reclamation Sage. Ever since the printing of Cavern of Souls, Krosan Grip has indirectly been nerfed. The fact that this guy can be played with Cavern or Vial to go through counter magic is big IMO.

[mrblueduck]

The deck has so few top 8s because it has become extremely inconsistent. It is susceptible to Abrupt Decay and Deathrite Shaman. Those cards have done a fine job of negating Lackey and Aether Vial. Without Lackey and Vial consistently cheating Gobbos into play the deck actually needs to hardcast cards. This makes the deck more susceptible to Wasteland than just about any deck in the format because of our extremely high curve and reliance upon non-basics. Having the highest curve used to not matter because we could cheat everything into play, and that allowed us to have janky-ass manabases and rock Waste+Port+Cavern. Well, we can't cheat stuff into play consistently anymore, so the manabase and high curve are liabilities. Also, when our opponents' Wastelands become better our Wastelands become much, much worse.

Jrw1985 articulates the problems with goblins extremely well and can be summed up by these two major points.
1) Our early plays can get nullified too easily by DRS, SFM, and Goyf.
2) Our land base of Port/Waste can be a liability instead of an asset in a DRS world.

The thread has gotten stale because there just aren't enough Goblin cards to make things interesting. You can go ahead and playtest all the 4-drops you want; they still won't win you the game without the basic Lackey/Vial engine working. We need better 1 and 2-drops that allow us to win without Lackey/Vial, but there are no 1-or-2-drops being overlooked (except Goblin Skycutter). WotC is clearly not interested in printing interesting Goblins that cost less than 2R.

However this is where I strongly disagree, the thread has gotten stale because people are not play testing at all or simply don't have a clear grasp of whats going on. The more experienced players like JRW seem to know exactly what the decks strengths/weaknesses are, however no one on here is seriously trying to address these issues. I get on here and every week or so and see the same bullshit I always see. Some lame deck list that went 3-1 at there local FNM. Extremely low amounts of innovation.

I have had the chance to play a few hundred Legacy matches on MTGO these last few weeks and while my list is far from perfect, I am trying hard to address the weakness that Goblins have. I was able to 4-0 several dailies, and several more not listed: http://www.mtgtop8.com/search?player=fantasy13. I have been working on this list for over four years now, and when it got posted on here, I believe it was referred to as 'someone on drugs' slapped it together. Really? I mean I ran this list up to nearly a 1900 rating on MTGO, and had an older version finishing 18th in SCG LA this year, and another top 4 in 2012. So when people ask why this thread has gotten stale, its because of one or two reasons 1) Too many players don't know whats going on, and keep rehashing there 2006 goblin versions with slight modifications cluttering any progressions, or 2) Too many people just don't care enough to ask questions and really look why certain lists are performing well.

[Vandalize]

+1



I probably should add that these people are playing Winstigator builds....

What's your current WInstigator list?

[Ace/Homebrew]

I get on here and every week or so and see the same bullshit I always see. Some lame deck list that went 3-1 at there local FNM. Extremely low amounts of innovation.

I took cooljet's list to my local weekly and went 3-1!

28 players
R1: Merfolk, 2-1
R2: Depths/Stage Punishing Maverick, 0-2
R3: D+T, 2-1
R4: Stoneblade, 2-0

Top 8
R5: Miracles 1-2

I beat D+T because I know the matchup and he didn't. He made some errors I capitalized on.
The combo land Maverick seemed impossible... He mulled to 5 game 2 and I was on the play and I was never really in it.

Miracles landed a turn 4 Moat in game 3.

I believe it was referred to as 'someone on drugs' slapped it together. Really?

I'll give your list a try. I only have one Settler and no Spirit of the Labyrinth. The Spirit is easy enough to get, but I'm not keen on getting another Settler at this time... Can you recommend a replacement?

[cooljets]

I took cooljet's list to my local weekly and went 3-1!

Nice work! How'd you like the list?

What's your current WInstigator list?

Here is mine, I 4-0'd my last LGS Legacy event with it. I believe GoboLord is on a very similar one, although he is mono red because there isn't much combo in his meta right now so the lands and sideboard are a bit different.

//MANA [22]:
4 Wasteland
4 Cavern Of Souls
4 Badlands
4 Bloodstained Mire
3 Mountain
3 Chrome Mox

//CORE [28]:
4 AEther Vial
4 Goblin Lackey
4 Warren Instigator
4 Goblin Piledriver
4 Goblin Chieftain
4 Goblin Matron
4 Goblin Ringleader

//OTHER [10]:
2 Tuktuk Scrapper
1 Stingscourger
1 Siege-Gang Commander
1 Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker
3 Tarfire
1 Gempalm Incinerator
1 Warren Weirding

//SIDEBOARD [15]:
4 Chalice Of The Void
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Earwig Squad
1 Wort, Boggart Auntie
1 Goblin Sharpshooter
1 Goblin Settler
1 Stingscourger