All B/R update speculation.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Wheel was funny in the old RG Beats. Once you ran out of creatures and burn, you made a new hand and kicked the opponent out of game before he untapped. It was also pretty sick with Storm Seeker, although one needed Sol Ring or Tinder Wall to make things happen fast enough.
Alas, the time of my high school are long gone. I don't expect to see the Wheel anytime soon.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

All in belcher-style storm (though vulnerable to counters) is absurd with the addition of Wheel of Fortune. Things get a bit more involved when you start looking at aggro/combo/control approaches.

There's already several very consistent turn 1/2 combo decks that are only kept in check by the existence of Force of Will, "though vulnerable to counters" is a pretty big hand-waive.

[Amon Amarth]

There's already several very consistent turn 1/2 combo decks that are only kept in check by the existence of Force of Will, "though vulnerable to counters" is a pretty big hand-waive.

What do you mean by "hand-waive"?

I do think that Wheel would be the best Draw-7 if all of them were unbanned because of stocking your graveyard with cards is good as well as red rituals being a thing. I think its more than a little amusing that it's probably much better than any blue variants.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I mean saying a deck would win consistently turn 1/2 but be vulnerable to counters is pretty irrelevant since that already describes a bunch of legal decks.

[Dice_Box]

Think about Burn with Wheel, think about a deck like Beltcher being able to just instantly reload and have a second go after the first attempt meets resistance. Think about being able to force a mull against Combo and control and totally ruining their hand. Think about filling your grave while refilling your hand with a deck like Reanimator or Young Frankenstein. There is much more than just Beltcher getting a boost here to think about, much much more.

[Ace/Homebrew]

Think about Burn with Wheel, think about a deck like Beltcher being able to just instantly reload and have a second go after the first attempt meets resistance.

So... Belcher pilot shot their load but you had FoW or whatever to keep from dying. Let's say Belcher already used their Land Grant to find the singleton Taiga. They top-deck Wheel of Fortune. How exactly do they play it?

Banned card should stay banned, but not because of Belcher.

[Zilla]

No, I understand. You are claiming that there are cards that equal or do more harm than the ones listed. I am saying that, if this was the case, if there are really cards that equal or exceed the power level of the listed cards, than they must be capable of being unbanned. So if your point is, the format already deals with worse (a false statement) then these you are by extension claiming that the format can handle these cards too.

That's not his point at all, which he made pretty clear in the last sentence in the post to which you're responding.

His point isn't that those cards are less powerful than legal ones so they should be unbanned. His point is that those cards are less powerful than legal ones so those legal ones should probably also be banned.

[Dice_Box]

But I disagree with the premise, what legal card is more powerful than wheel, Bazaar or oath?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Ad Nauseam, Brainstorm, Show and Tell.

Bazaar is probably more "powerful" than those actually, but Bazaar decks are fragile and it's basically impossible for them to dominate a metagame over time. Graveyard hate is too cheap/good.

[Dice_Box]

Bazaar can make it quite easy to fire off a deck faster than RIP can hit the table. You need to have 0 cost hate, or be faster. I do not agree that the hate out there for the Grave is honestly fast enough without other solid disruption. Bazaar would kill decks that don't have that completely. There is no way it is safe. It is also not comparable to something like Brainstorm, because it can be used as Engine to just do busted things as well as dig you out of punishing situations. Brainstorm is also not repeatable, is easier to interact with and can punish you badly for playing it wrong. There is not often times where you get punished for playing Bazaar wrong. It's kind of hard to fuck it up.

Oath is not at all comparable with Ad Nauseam. The building restrictions are very different, oath let's you do more broken things than any other deck I have ever played against. I honestly think this is the best deck on Vintage. Not playing with a large amount of creatures is hardly a draw back and having a fist full of control to back yourself up alongside things like E tutor is crazy.

SnT, well, we agree on something, that card is busted as shit. You will get no argument from me here.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

I see it like dicebox Brainstorm is a really strong card but it is the only exception of a playable card which is
stronger then the cards on the banned list excluding power twister and Libary and all other thing that generate more
Mana then you need to play them.

But for all other cards i hav to ask which exsisting card boosts dregde more then Bazzar?
Which counterspell iks strictly better then Mana dRain which enables an huge Entreat or other stupid ramrant stuff.
How can Ad Nauseum be better then Bargain or Will because here you pay only 1 life but not 1-4.
Is there any better stalling card as Sherazad?
Any better Brainstorm and Sword Counter then MM which only costs 2 life and is playable in all decks?
Is there any better Combo piece then Mind desire?

The question on this answer is clear no. All cards are the most powerfull in the resprected fields they would cover
if unbanned and tend to be broken in this fields and the reason why they were banned is because they would
create oppressive decks or siuations like Sherazad stalling the whole second game preventing you opponenent from
even having the chance to win (I personaly like this card but I see why it is better to leave it on the banned list).

So Brainstorm is a more powerfull card then most of them but is not creating such an oppresive siuation or deck like
Vintage Dregde that you have to ban it for this. Yes it makes decks strictly better which play it but since it costs
only 1 blue you can splash it or play Sensei´s to compensate it to a certain degreee.

The conclusion is that the power of the card is not avaluated from her own design but how it works togetehr with
other cards and which drawbacks and advantages it creates whilce concider recources like, life, handcards, mana etc.
If you do this you cn come to the conclusion that most of the cards a more powerfull then cards which are legal
excluded examples like jitte, top, or Skullclamp.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Bazaar can make it quite easy to fire off a deck faster than RIP can hit the table. You need to have 0 cost hate, or be faster. I do not agree that the hate out there for the Grave is honestly fast enough without other solid disruption. Bazaar would kill decks that don't have that completely. There is no way it is safe. It is also not comparable to something like Brainstorm, because it can be used as Engine to just do busted things as well as dig you out of punishing situations. Brainstorm is also not repeatable, is easier to interact with and can punish you badly for playing it wrong. There is not often times where you get punished for playing Bazaar wrong. It's kind of hard to fuck it up.

RIP isn't really the big issue with Dredge, it's not common enough. Dredge already tends to overwhelmingly win g1. Even through Deathrite.

The problem is the existence of these nuclear bombs that are free and wipe it out. Crypt, Leyline, Extraction, Ravenous Trap.

In this sense Bazaar Dredge is roughly comparable to something like Oops All Spells, or for that matter Elves, which are dreadfully consistent and fast, but not really strong at resisting silver bullets.

Trust me when I say that having played 1.5 when Bazaar was legal, I am not at all dismissing its power as an engine.

Oath is not at all comparable with Ad Nauseam. The building restrictions are very different, oath let's you do more broken things than any other deck I have ever played against. I honestly think this is the best deck on Vintage. Not playing with a large amount of creatures is hardly a draw back and having a fist full of control to back yourself up alongside things like E tutor is crazy.

SnT, well, we agree on something, that card is busted as shit. You will get no argument from me here.

Oath is more comparable to Show and Tell. But I think it tends to lose that comparison.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hello,

I see it like dicebox Brainstorm is a really strong card but it is the only exception of a playable card which is
stronger then the cards on the banned list excluding power twister and Libary and all other thing that generate more
Mana then you need to play them.

But for all other cards i hav to ask which exsisting card boosts dregde more then Bazzar?
Which counterspell iks strictly better then Mana dRain which enables an huge Entreat or other stupid ramrant stuff.
How can Ad Nauseum be better then Bargain or Will because here you pay only 1 life but not 1-4.
Is there any better stalling card as Sherazad?
Any better Brainstorm and Sword Counter then MM which only costs 2 life and is playable in all decks?
Is there any better Combo piece then Mind desire?

The question on this answer is clear no. All cards are the most powerfull in the resprected fields they would cover
if unbanned and tend to be broken in this fields and the reason why they were banned is because they would
create oppressive decks or siuations like Sherazad stalling the whole second game preventing you opponenent from
even having the chance to win (I personaly like this card but I see why it is better to leave it on the banned list).

So Brainstorm is a more powerfull card then most of them but is not creating such an oppresive siuation or deck like
Vintage Dregde that you have to ban it for this. Yes it makes decks strictly better which play it but since it costs
only 1 blue you can splash it or play Sensei´s to compensate it to a certain degreee.

The conclusion is that the power of the card is not avaluated from her own design but how it works togetehr with
other cards and which drawbacks and advantages it creates whilce concider recources like, life, handcards, mana etc.
If you do this you cn come to the conclusion that most of the cards a more powerfull then cards which are legal
excluded examples like jitte, top, or Skullclamp.

Best Regards Teveshszat

I don't want to be a dick here, and I know English is your second language, but your posts here are pretty close to unreadable. I'm not trying to nitpick syntax or grammar or whatever, it's just actually really difficult to figure out what you are trying to say. If you could get a friend to proof read this stuff it'd make things easier, especially longer posts like this.

I am aware that cards are powerful based on how they interact with resources that's, really not even an insight. Being aware of this, no, I did not come to that conclusion. I'm not sure why you're lumping Jitte and Top, which are not banned, with Skullclamp, which is. The answer is not a "clear" no, not even only because I'm not entirely sure what your questions are. There's not a counterspell that's strictly better than Mana Drain, but the same could be said about Circular Logic or Cryptic Command, neither of which is in any danger of being banned as far as I know. Force of Will is clearly more powerful than Mana Drain though.

The fact that you're going out of your way to defend the power level of Shahrazad, which by Wizards' own admissions is strictly a logistical ban, suggests that you are operating mainly out of a prejudice towards the status quo I think.

[apple713]

Ad Nauseam, Brainstorm, Show and Tell.

Bazaar is probably more "powerful" than those actually, but Bazaar decks are fragile and it's basically impossible for them to dominate a metagame over time. Graveyard hate is too cheap/good.

Not sure why bazaar is in quotes. Its flat out one of the most powerful lands in the game. The speed at which bazaar allows you to function is faster than legacy decks really have time to combat it effectivly. Itsca land drop and cant be countered.

Oath is not at all comparable with Ad Nauseam. The building restrictions are very different, oath let's you do more broken things than any other deck I have ever played against. I honestly think this is the best deck on Vintage. Not

SnT, well, we agree on something, that card is busted as shit. You will get no argument from me here.

Oath is unhealthy because its creates little interaction and is mainly just 1 sided. Its also for the most part a 1 card combo.

Show and tell will probably never be banned because it allows for interaction with your opponent.

[HSCK]

Oath and its variants would break the format, and I love Oath. Oath Storm with 4 Brainstorm, 4 Lotus Petal, and 4 Ponder would be overly destructive.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Not sure why bazaar is in quotes. Its flat out one of the most powerful lands in the game. The speed at which bazaar allows you to function is faster than legacy decks really have time to combat it effectivly. Itsca land drop and cant be countered.

I assume you mean powerful. It was distinguishing quotes. Bazaar is powerful but not resilient.

Oath is unhealthy because its creates little interaction and is mainly just 1 sided. Its also for the most part a 1 card combo.

Show and tell will probably never be banned because it allows for interaction with your opponent.

I can't possibly put enough quote marks here but let me try.


"""""""""""""""""""""interaction"""""""""""""""""""""

[Dice_Box]

I guess. I just don't think that you can place something like Bazaar next to anything legal and state "Here is any kind of sane argument for anything really." The power of that card is head and shoulders above anything in Legacy today. Now if you wanted to place a card like Brainstorm next to a card like Recall, then we can have a discussion. While it takes some work to do, I am more than happy to draw parallels between the two and that is a more realistic point to make.

As for Oath being like SnT. I guess, to a point, but acting as a tutor and as a SnT is something else entirely. SnT is busted, Oath is busted, the two can be put near one another on a scale, but I still think that Oath is a poor argument when pointing at SnT. If you want to make an argument about SnT, just point at SnT. Nothing else required.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Although any extended convo about SNT vs Oath is going to basically be about how absurd Griselbrand's existence is.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I guess. I just don't think that you can place something like Bazaar next to anything legal and state "Here is any kind of sane argument for anything really." The power of that card is head and shoulders above anything in Legacy today. Now if you wanted to place a card like Brainstorm next to a card like Recall, then we can have a discussion. While it takes some work to do, I am more than happy to draw parallels between the two and that is a more realistic point to make.

As for Oath being like SnT. I guess, to a point, but acting as a tutor and as a SnT is something else entirely. SnT is busted, Oath is busted, the two can be put near one another on a scale, but I still think that Oath is a poor argument when pointing at SnT. If you want to make an argument about SnT, just point at SnT. Nothing else required.

Dude, Ancestral Recall is like way more powerful than Bazaar and Brainstorm put together. There's not really room for argument here, if AR was legal it would be a 4 of in every competitive deck.

I mean in the Bazaar deck vs the Recall deck, the former might get game 1, but game 2 is going to be like, "Extraction, Recall myself, untap cast Snapcaster targeting Extraction get fucked."

As for the latter point I think it's pretty relevant that a card that's banned that basically no one wants unbanned is comparable in all ways to a card that's legal that people are really struggling to defend not banning.

[Dice_Box]

I know it is more powerful, but more than one person is willing to concede that with a fetch, Brainstorm is as close to Recall as you can get without actually playing the card. Hell, even SCG streams they sometimes make that distinction. Granted that's far from the best place to get your legacy knowledge, but it shows how prevalent the view is.