All B/R update speculation.

[apple713]

<bunch of nonsense>

Teveshszat post makes sense. The cards that are banned are the most powerful at what they do. While his example is rather weak his concept is correct.

Fow is not more powerful than mana drain . Fows powerlevel is actually not very high. Its a 2-1 against you. Mana drain allows for things you would not normally or should not normally be able to do in early turns. Its easily the best counterspell for its cost.

Snip - Removed Flames.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I know it is more powerful, but more than one person is willing to concede that with a fetch, Brainstorm is as close to Recall as you can get without actually playing the card. Hell, even SCG streams they sometimes make that distinction. Granted that's far from the best place to get your legacy knowledge, but it shows how prevalent the view is.

It's still a silly view. Even in the scenario where you have two absolutely unwanted cards and a shuffle effect- a minority position- you're still increasing your chances of drawing crap + vulnerability to discard.

Really the only time it's better to have Brainstorm is hiding a key card on top against T-seize or something but that's not nearly enough to make them comparable. Ancestral Recall is arguably the most powerful banned card, only Black Lotus compares as far as I can tell. Maybe Mana Crypt.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Teveshszat post makes sense. The cards that are banned are the most powerful at what they do.

This isn't a very meaningful statement. Nor, depending on interpretation, true. It's basically actually just begging the question.

While his example is rather weak his concept is correct.

What does this mean?

Fow is not more powerful than mana drain . Fows powerlevel is actually not very high.

Is it a premise of this conversation that we ignore actual tournament results?

Its a 2-1 against you.

So are Black Lotus and Bazaar.

Mana drain allows for things you would not normally or should not normally be able to do in early turns.

So does Goblin Lackey.

Its easily the best counterspell for its cost.

So is Decree of Silence.

[Dice_Box]

I would argue that Contract from Below is the most powerful banned card, but at this point it's all just semantics.

Regardless of how you view Brainstorm, there is not much on the list that compares to it. If you want to argue that it should be banned or not, you have many other options to take. I do not think there is a card on the list that you can put beside Brainstorm and say "Here, why is this one legal and this one not". Like SnT, Brainstorm will live and die on its own merits. No need to make an list of some of the most broken mistakes ever made to try and prove a point about it.

Sometimes though, I wish they would take those risks again and make more mistakes. Good God I miss good old powerful sets.

[apple713]

This isn't a very meaningful statement. Nor, depending on interpretation, true. It's basically actually just begging the question.



What does this mean?



Is it a premise of this conversation that we ignore actual tournament results?



So are Black Lotus and Bazaar.



So does Goblin Lackey.



So is Decree of Silence.

It means i can understand how you may not follow his example but the point he is trying to make is correct

Tournament results don't represent powerlevel. While fow is in many top decks, so are blue duals and fetchlands. Should we ban those?

Those are not 2-4-1's . Bazaars downside is actually why its so powerful. Ic you had to sacrifice a land when it came into play i kight be able to agree with you. Pitching a card to force never has a benefit inless you are trying to het out of black vise range.

Goblin lackey is very limited compared to mana drain. If the mana could only be spent on creatures or only on instants, it may not be banned.

You totally misunderstood "for its cost".

Its simply the best counterspell. It counters any spell, and has huge added benefit for only 2 mana.

[Bed Decks Palyer]

Bazaar is so much more powerful than anything right now in Legacy, that I seriously don't understand what we're discussing here. The old Type 1.5 missed the whole Dredge archetype with the additional insanity in Grisly, Looting and DReturn that makes the deck explode on turn1 in very ugly fashion.
If the premise to discuss Brainstorm, SnT (and somehow Delver*) is to agree that Bazaar or Oath is on par with nowadays most powerful cards of Legacy, then sorry, there's nothing to discuss. These cards are in their own category. Maybe SnT and BS belongs there too, IDK.

*) I find Delver really oppressive, but maybe it's just necessary evil for tempo decks to exist.

Also, Shahrazad? O_o
It's nice card. For casuals, of course. But I doubt it would bring any good to tournament play.

[Teveshszat]

Hello again,

ok I try it again.

So does Goblin Lackey.

First the Manadrain issue. When you play Manadrain and you counter a spell with it which has a CMC of 2 you get these 2 Mana in the next mainphase.
What is the benefit here. Assuming you played a land each turn you are now 2 turn ahead were in terms of the Manarescource. This leads to a huge
advantage because the generated Mana is colorless you can support all kind of things.
This card is easly one of the most flexible and powerfull cards because it grant you an significant recource advantage in a limited recource game and
were this is leading should be obivous for all.

While Goblin Lackey is very powerfull in Goblins he can´t do all the things Manadrain could do including dealing with hate cards.

Is it a premise of this conversation that we ignore actual tournament results?

No we are not ignoring them but compare two cards powerlevel. Try to see it this way Force is better in Tempo decks
were you focus is to finish the game before the opponent can establish any defences. Manadrain is better in decks
were you want a recource advantage to establish you game plan like Oath in Vintage or other
Control Decks.

So are Black Lotus and Bazaar.

So Blacklotus and Bazzar are 2-1 cards aigainst you? Do you know how what a Lotus is doing ?

A Black Lotus is a card which costs 0 Mana and produces 3 of any Color. Following this and that we a limited Mana recources for the
game it is a 3-0 for you in terms of Mana and depending which card you play with the Mana it will get even better because it generates
such a high recource advantage for zero Mana that it is reidculus. Just to make it clear you trade 1 Hand card against 3 Mana ( each addtional Mana is worth 1 turn in terms
of the Mana recource) and you don´t need to pay Mana. So in the end it is a 3-1 for you if you don´t include the card played next with the Lotus Mana.

Bazzar on the other Hand is a disatvantage against you on the first look but then enable the Dregde deck to cut most of his other lands
and subpotimal cards to stabilize and enable his core strategy with serum powder that the degree of the reduction of variance can even concidered greater
then the degree which brainstorm would provide for this deck.

So both a not cards which are drawbacks for you in any siuation since they are giving you such an large advantage in return were Force of Will
is just a Counter which trades 1-1 and more often 2-1 against you because you have to remove a blue card and is therefore also more conditional
when to use.

I hope it is a little clearer this time if not and you wnat to understand it ask and I try to explain it again in a PM.

Edit:

Bed Decks Player
Also, Shahrazad? O_o
It's nice card. For casuals, of course. But I doubt it would bring any good to tournament play.

No it would not bring any good to the tournment which is actually the reason why I would leave it on the banned list despite how much
I love the Idea of a card which says give me an the option to prevent my enemy from winning on a constant basis.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

I would argue that Contract from Below is the most powerful banned card, but at this point it's all just semantics.

I mean the new Conspiracy cards would probably win this contest if they were logistically viable, I'm only including cards in this frame of reference that work in the rules. Contract doesn't do anything in Legacy except get removed from your deck beforehand.

Regardless of how you view Brainstorm, there is not much on the list that compares to it. If you want to argue that it should be banned or not, you have many other options to take. I do not think there is a card on the list that you can put beside Brainstorm and say "Here, why is this one legal and this one not". Like SnT, Brainstorm will live and die on its own merits. No need to make an list of some of the most broken mistakes ever made to try and prove a point about it.

Cards aren't banned in a vacuum, if we don't know the baseline it's pretty difficult to figure out... especially when most of the pro-Brainstorm arguments aren't predicated anymore in an idea that Brainstorm is good for the format, but basically just calling people whiners or telling them to man up etc..

It means i can understand how you may not follow his example but the point he is trying to make is correct

Which is what? Cards that are most powerful at what they do are banned, which is why Lightning Bolt and Counterbalance aren't legal?

Tournament results don't represent powerlevel.

This is basically incorrect.

While fow is in many top decks, so are blue duals and fetchlands. Should we ban those?

Is one card like eight cards?

Those are not 2-4-1's . Bazaars downside is actually why its so powerful. Ic you had to sacrifice a land when it came into play i kight be able to agree with you. Pitching a card to force never has a benefit inless you are trying to het out of black vise range.

Goblin lackey is very limited compared to mana drain. If the mana could only be spent on creatures or only on instants, it may not be banned.

Mana Drain is also reactive. Could use Aether Vial if you prefer though.

You totally misunderstood "for its cost".

Its simply the best counterspell. It counters any spell, and has huge added benefit for only 2 mana.

It sounds like you actually just misspoke and didn't mean to add the modifier at all.

Anyway, no, Force of Will is objectively the best counter in the game as tournament results verify. You have an enormous burden of proof to overcome to establish otherwise.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Bazaar is so much more powerful than anything right now in Legacy, that I seriously don't understand what we're discussing here.

Show and Tell into Griselbrand is obviously a much more powerful and resilient combo than hoping your opponent doesn't have any sideboard that affects you.

The old Type 1.5 missed the whole Dredge archetype with the additional insanity in Grisly, Looting and DReturn that makes the deck explode on turn1 in very ugly fashion.

It also had Dragon, which had the ability to run as combo-control that Dredge doesn't have. Given the choice I'm pretty sure I'd still prefer the former, although it's a pretty moot point since neither is super healthy.

For frame of reference Dragon was probably the best deck in the history of 1.5/Legacy other than Hulk-Flash, which was basically just a slightly better Dragon. A blistering fast combo deck that can run all the counters/disruption is pretty much the worst case scenario. Which, hey, speaking of Show and Tell.

If the premise to discuss Brainstorm, SnT (and somehow Delver*) is to agree that Bazaar or Oath is on par with nowadays most powerful cards of Legacy, then sorry, there's nothing to discuss. These cards are in their own category. Maybe SnT and BS belongs there too, IDK.

Given that SnT and Brainstorm are both legal and some people think should continue to be so, it sounds like there is in fact something to discuss!

Hello again,

ok I try it again.

I am honestly not sure because again I find your posts difficult to parse, is the condescension intentional or not?

First the Manadrain issue. When you play Manadrain and you counter a spell with it which has a CMC of 2 you get these 2 Mana in the next mainphase.
What is the benefit here. Assuming you played a land each turn you are now 2 turn ahead were in terms of the Manarescource. This leads to a huge
advantage because the generated Mana is colorless you can support all kind of things.
This card is easly one of the most flexible and powerfull cards because it grant you an significant recource advantage in a limited recource game and
were this is leading should be obivous for all.

When you cast Aether Vial you cast a spell which has a cmc of 1 and for this 1 each upkeep you add 1 and then blah blah blah

Why the fuck are you wasting my time telling me what cards do, I know what the cards fucking do. If this is an attempt at condescension, again, let me know so I can respond more appropriately, but otherwise this is just some kind of bizarre ego blindness where you think because I don't agree with your knee-jerk defense of the banned list that I must not know what cards do.

Mana Drain is a reasonable upgrade to Counterspell, a complete innocuous card that sees Legacy play but not a ton of it. If you build your deck around the assumption that your opponent will give you juicy Mana Drain targets and you'll always have that opportunity, your deck will suck and be constantly clogged with overcosted shit.

Lots of cards give you a resource advantage and aren't banned so where you're going is the exact opposite of obvious.

While Goblin Lackey is very powerfull in Goblins he can´t do all the things Manadrain could do including dealing with hate cards.

Congratulations, you have identified that Mana Drain and Goblin Lackey are different cards. You also noticed that one is reactive, generally a sign of less problems to come, although you somehow came around to interpret that as a strength, a measure by which I guess Teferi's Response is a strictly better Strip Mine.

No we are not ignoring them but compare two cards powerlevel. Try to see it this way Force is better in Tempo decks
were you focus is to finish the game before the opponent can establish any defences. Manadrain is better in decks
were you want a recource advantage to establish you game plan like Oath in Vintage or other
Control Decks.

I can try but it will continue to be wrong.

So Blacklotus and Bazzar are 2-1 cards aigainst you? Do you know how what a Lotus is doing ?

Like did someone make a gimmick account where the concept was "super condescending Polandball" or something?

Yes, I know what Black Lotus does.

A Black Lotus is a card which costs 0 Mana and produces 3 of any Color. Following this and that we a limited Mana recources for the
game it is a 3-0 for you in terms of Mana and depending which card you play with the Mana it will get even better because it generates
such a high recource advantage for zero Mana that it is reidculus. Just to make it clear you trade 1 Hand card against 3 Mana ( each addtional Mana is worth 1 turn in terms
of the Mana recource) and you don´t need to pay Mana. So in the end it is a 3-1 for you if you don´t include the card played next with the Lotus Mana.

Bazzar on the other Hand is a disatvantage against you on the first look but then enable the Dregde deck to cut most of his other lands
and subpotimal cards to stabilize and enable his core strategy with serum powder that the degree of the reduction of variance can even concidered greater
then the degree which brainstorm would provide for this deck.

So both a not cards which are drawbacks for you in any siuation since they are giving you such an large advantage in return were Force of Will
is just a Counter which trades 1-1 and more often 2-1 against you because you have to remove a blue card and is therefore also more conditional
when to use.

I love the people trying to present the second most successful card in Legacy by a mile as being underwhelming thing. It's really quaint.

I hope it is a little clearer this time if not and you wnat to understand it ask and I try to explain it again in a PM.

Next time formulate an actual argument and don't assume I don't know what fucking cards do. Also get someone to proofread this, seriously, you're borderline incomprehensible, this is 100% serious; it is difficult to read what you are trying to do except assuming for some fucking reason I don't know what Black Lotus does.

No it would not bring any good to the tournment which is actually the reason why I would leave it on the banned list despite how much
I love the Idea of a card which says give me an the option to prevent my enemy from winning on a constant basis.

Best Regards Teveshszat

You know that Shahrazad was one of the shittiest cards in the format and saw basically no play when it was legal, right?

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also as a general note:

If one wants to argue that Oath is better than Show and Tell, which I find dubious, but even if one is so inclined, it shouldn't be controversial to say that Show and Tell with Griselbrand is way better than Oath without Griselbrand, so we're back on the topic of things that are better than cards on the banned list being legal.

[rufus]

If one wants to argue that Oath is better than Show and Tell, which I find dubious, but even if one is so inclined, it shouldn't be controversial to say that Show and Tell with Griselbrand is way better than Oath without Griselbrand, so we're back on the topic of things that are better than cards on the banned list being legal.

Against decks that play creatures, Oath of Druids is going to be better. (One card, and one less mana means it's better even without Griselbrand.)

[sjmcc13]

Earned its ban, did it? I must have hibernated through the dominance of Legacy Oath lists.

It has never been legal in Legacy. It has been banned since the format was created for good reason.
It is a 1 card combo, that looks at creature decks and gives them the finger.
you drop a Oath, protect it for 1 turn and get your fatty the same turn you would have cast show and Tell, while your opponent has not been able to drop something for free to mess with your guy like he would have a chance with Show and Tell.
Oath lets you build a control deck with a combo finisher that takes up very little space in the deck, 4 oaths, 1-2 creatures and maybe 1-2 other cards to go with them and 4 multi color lands that take up land slots, Sneak and Show uses 16 cards for the same effect.

Any creature you pair with Show, you can pair with Oath and make a stronger, more reliable deck due to not needing to dedicate as much as much space to your kill, leaving more room for protection. Also while both have a symetrical effect, Oath's symmetry is allot harder for your opponent to turn against you.

Oath was strong when creatures were allot weaker then they are now, it is still one of the top Vintage archetypes.

If show was as strong or stronger then oath, Show would be seeing heavy Vintage play, or at lest more play then Oath does. Which it does not.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Against decks that play creatures, Oath of Druids is going to be better. (One card, and one less mana means it's better even without Griselbrand.)

Without an actual list this is impossible to say but

1) That's irrelevant if it's not better against the meta as a whole.

2) I think that pretty clearly doesn't apply to control decks, and against elves and burn I'm pretty sure passing the turn is awful for you. Also, y'know, the existence of Abrupt Decay.

It has never been legal in Legacy. It has been banned since the format was created

No shit, there I was.

for good reason.

Actually there was a pretty clear consensus the card was garbage until they started printing these stupid insta-win creatures like Emrakul, and certainly Griselbrand. Keep in mind that 1.5 had legal Oath and lots of creature decks and the card was barely on the radar.

It is a 1 card combo, that looks at creature decks and gives them the finger.

Noooooot really. Especially if those decks run Abrupt Decay which fuck wow does that card negate your strategy harder than all fucks.

you drop a Oath, protect it for 1 turn and get your fatty the same turn you would have cast show and Tell

Assuming you only ever want to cast it on turn 2 I guess. And never need to spend time like digging or anything.

Any creature you pair with Show, you can pair with Oath and make a stronger, more reliable deck due to not needing to dedicate as much as much space to your kill, leaving more room for protection. Also while both have a symetrical effect, Oath's symmetry is allot harder for your opponent to turn against you.

Oath was strong when creatures were allot weaker then they are now, it is still one of the top Vintage archetypes.

If show was as strong or stronger then oath, Show would be seeing heavy Vintage play, or at lest more play then Oath does. Which it does not.

Even if we pretend they're not different formats, you're ignoring the part where Griselbrand + SNT is pretty clearly superior to Oath without Griselbrand.

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Also Revoker. There'd be a pretty compelling case for MD Pithing Needles in some decks if Survival were legal, actually.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

ah thank you IBA for each insult you throw at me I realize a bit more that you have no real argument left and thank makes me happy.
Btw is you insulting behavoir intentional or not?

Just to mention I am not condescensional. If I would you could read things like ok my little Pony Assasin now just let you give
you a letcture in the basics of resource Management and cost effiency combing with Statistics.

But lets see I try to tell you what the cards do because out of your argumentation you not seem to realize what effect they have behoynd
the card it self which is why I explained what the cards really do when played in the right decks and why is is the reason why they are banned. When
you get to this point then you will understand my argumentation and no longer think that it is none at all.

Yes there are a lot of recource generating cards which are not banned because they are not as cost efficient as it need to be to be ban worthy.
Normaly for man it has to cheaper then the Mana it produces to be ban worthy like Mana crypt, Vault, the five colored Moxes and Sol Ring.
Mox Diamond and all variants of it after are not on it despite beeing cheaper because they have other restrictions most of the time costing hand
cards. So what you want is an costeffiecnt Mana recource advantage.
Why is it not obious that alle the card which are not banned are simply not effiecient enough to generate a advantge which is as great as the
advantage of the banned cards?

For Manadrain just replace Counterspell in Miracles with Manadrain an see what happen. top will be better then ever the Snap Caster Mage would be
more powerfull and cheaper Clique becomes cheaper as well Kenaros for 3 instead of 5 Mana only 2 Mana to pay for Jace to me it seems that I don´t need
to build a deck with overcosted stuff but just put this thing in a control shell to generate a huge profit out of this by the way this is the reason why it is
the best fucking counter I know besides Mental Missstep.
And yes reactive is a strength for me when the card is part of a control deck which actually want to be reactive most of the time until you have no threats left.

No Teferis Response is worse then Strip Mine because of the Loam and Crucible Recursion of Mine and because it costs 1 Mana less if you count the missed
landdrop as 1 spent Mana.

For the Force topic I not say it is underwhleming it is one of the best counters we have it is just bad in comparrsion to thing like Bazzar, Lotus or Manadrain because
these cards can do much more then Force of Will.

IBA
Which is what? Cards that are most powerful at what they do are banned, which is why Lightning Bolt and Counterbalance aren't legal?

Lightning BNolt is a very cost efficient card but is not banned because it one of the signature cards of Red and actually not that damaging to the format.
Counterbalance is not banned because it is situational and there are countermessures aviable which deal with it in different siuations from 90 to 100%
just looking at Aprupt decay and Krosan Grip.

IBA
You know that Shahrazad was one of the shittiest cards in the format and saw basically no play when it was legal, right?

Never said it was played much. But it was redicusly good when played as Sideboard card in a control deck stalling the game as long as it needs
to prevent the second from finishing and the third from happning.
Which is the reason why it was banned.

IBA
responding to particular arguments and not getting in a snitty self-righteous huff.

soemthing you never do because you just declare all other argumentations which are not underlining your point as null and void
and never have to go into a real discussion but switching into the insulting mode.

Best Regards Teveshszat

[TheInfamousBearAssassin]

Hello,

ah thank you IBA for each insult you throw at me I realize a bit more that you have no real argument left and thank makes me happy.
Btw is you insulting behavoir intentional or not?

It is not an insult. It is a simple statement of fact. Your English is difficult to read. I think it would be inane to pretend that your posts are extremely clear when they're not.

There's no value judgment in that, it just makes communication difficult. It was a serious inquiry. What on Earth is your basis for assuming I need you to explain what Magic cards do?

But lets see I try to tell you what the cards do because out of your argumentation you not seem to realize what effect they have behoynd
the card it self which is why I explained what the cards really do when played in the right decks and why is is the reason why they are banned. When
you get to this point then you will understand my argumentation and no longer think that it is none at all.

"The cards are banned because they do what they do" is, in point of fact, no argument at all.

Yes there are a lot of recource generating cards which are not banned because they are not as cost efficient as it need to be to be ban worthy.
Normaly for man it has to cheaper then the Mana it produces to be ban worthy like Mana crypt, Vault, the five colored Moxes and Sol Ring.
Mox Diamond and all variants of it after are not on it despite beeing cheaper because they have other restrictions most of the time costing hand
cards. So what you want is an costeffiecnt Mana recource advantage.
Why is it not obious that alle the card which are not banned are simply not effiecient enough to generate a advantge which is as great as the
advantage of the banned cards?

Because other cards which are not banned produce a greater advantage than cards that are banned...?

I mean you do understand that when we say that cards that are banned are more powerful than cards that are banned, that's exactly what we mean, right? No one is saying, "Ancestral Recall is banned but Opportunity is even more powerful! Why isn't it banned!?!?!?" because everyone is not an idiot and understands how resource management works.

For Manadrain just replace Counterspell in Miracles with Manadrain an see what happen. top will be better then ever the Snap Caster Mage would be
more powerfull and cheaper Clique becomes cheaper as well Kenaros for 3 instead of 5 Mana only 2 Mana to pay for Jace to me it seems that I don´t need
to build a deck with overcosted stuff but just put this thing in a control shell to generate a huge profit out of this by the way this is the reason why it is
the best fucking counter I know besides Mental Missstep.
And yes reactive is a strength for me when the card is part of a control deck which actually want to be reactive most of the time until you have no threats left.

Generally cards from control decks don't end up being banned. Which is why Force is still legal despite being far more prevalent in Vintage, just like it was far more prevalent than Mana Drain in 1.5. It is simply not congruent with observed reality to claim that Mana Drain is better than Force, and no amount of arguing that it's better than Counterspell- which no one disputed- will change that.

If actual results aren't enough for you, and clearly they're not, there's always the reality that the tempo advantage gained by Mana Drain is limited and conditional and requires first committing to keeping mana open, whereas the tempo gained by a free counter is applicable at any time, including when an opponent tries to resolve key spells on turn 1 and 2.

No Teferis Response is worse then Strip Mine because of the Loam and Crucible Recursion of Mine and because it costs 1 Mana less if you count the missed
landdrop as 1 spent Mana.

Ah, so if it cost one mana Teferi's Response would be better than Strip Mine?

Lightning BNolt is a very cost efficient card but is not banned because it one of the signature cards of Red and actually not that damaging to the format.
Counterbalance is not banned because it is situational and there are countermessures aviable which deal with it in different siuations from 90 to 100%
just looking at Aprupt decay and Krosan Grip.

So what you're saying is that power level is measured in a broader context and not simply dependent upon a determination that it's the "best at what it does at the mana cost"? Weeeeeeeeird.

Never said it was played much. But it was redicusly good when played as Sideboard card in a control deck stalling the game as long as it needs
to prevent the second from finishing and the third from happning.
Which is the reason why it was banned.

Yeah, this straight up isn't true, no one ran it in their sideboard and it was never good. It was banned because it created logistical stalling problems. But these didn't help the Shahrazad player so much as they punished the opponent.

soemthing you never do because you just declare all other argumentations which are not underlining your point as null and void
and never have to go into a real discussion but switching into the insulting mode.

To say that your posts are borderline unreadable is describing a real and persistent problem in communicating with you. To say that an argument is bad for X or Y reasons is engaging in the argument. I actually don't rely on direct attacks and insults because I am not a child and I actually don't really care enough about most of the posters involved to bother with determining what their personal flaws are. Saying, "You never respond to arguments you just troll and flame people" is however an actual personal attack. It's one I'm bored fucking stiffless of but still a personal attack. So you're the one actually leaning on that whole ad hominem thing, not me.

[Meekrab]

Generally cards from control decks don't end up being banned.

I just want to point out that this is only true because control decks have historically barely hung on in most formats. It's the nature of magic that proactive strategies are better than reactive.

If it was otherwise, you can bet that Stasis would be banned.

[FieryBalrog]

There's a single non-Brainstorm deck left in the DTB and it's Elves. Come on guys we can do 100% Brainstorm decks if we try hard enough.

[AggroControl]

I just want to point out that this is only true because control decks have historically barely hung on in most formats. It's the nature of magic that proactive strategies are better than reactive.

If it was otherwise, you can bet that Stasis would be banned.

This is accurate. The problem with Legacy at the moment is that blue sits perfectly across the meta with strong aggro, aggro-control and control options all available.

RUG Delver is as aggro as you can get. It is in your face from the second turn on and often from the first with a Delver play. It achieves that same kind of consistency that traditional aggro decks have had by using blue card selection instead of the threat density that aggro normally has. This allows it to also play effective counters to forestall early disaster and to protect it's prized assets in play.

BUG Delver is fast aggro-control. It has discard and counters and the tools to find what it needs in a hurry. It also uses blue card selection to make up for a low threat density. It's not as fast as RUG in most cases (Delver being the obvious exception) but it makes up for the slightly slower kill plan by having more effective disruption in the discard elements.

Shardless BUG is flexible mid-range control. It can go a lot of different ways and is very adaptable to the list across the table from it. The blue card selection is key both in terms of finding it's solutions and also in setting the top of the library for Shardless Agent.

Miracles is a traditional control list. It looks to fend off the opponent until an inflection point arrives and then to win quickly from there when the match has turned positive for it. The Miracles player watches the game flow carefully and as soon as he detects a point at which the opponent is weak he strikes.

So blue lives in all the spaces in the meta except linear combo at this point and dominates all of them.

[Teveshszat]

Hello,

IBA
It is not an insult. It is a simple statement of fact. Your English is difficult to read. I think it would be inane to pretend that your posts are extremely clear when they're not.

I am not talking about the English critic but all the other insults which you written I would collect them but you are lucky because you posts
got deleted before I could do this so other than the fact that they are deleted there is no proof for you insults.

IBA
What on Earth is your basis for assuming I need you to explain what Magic cards do?

Because you come to very interesting Ideas about how the game and the cards are working and out of this
draw conclusions about their strength which are not really accurate.

Understanding what these cards are doing is important when you are doing comparisons to non-banned
Cards and evaluating the power level correctly is important to see why they are banned and lackey, vial and Brainstorm are not
And which reasons they have for not doing so.

IBA
No one is saying, "Ancestral Recall is banned but Opportunity is even more powerful! Why isn't it banned!?!?!?

No but you tried to say that some cards (excluding Brainstorm because he is very powerful) which are not banned are better than most of the cards on the banned list and therefore some of them maybe should be unbanned because their power level is lower than that of actual cards.
But if this argumentation I am tempted to try to explain the mechanics of these cards again because you seem to not understanding them
Correctly- But maybe it would be better to test it and prox the cards and then play with them to show how powerful these cards are.

IBA
Ah, so if it cost one mana Teferi's Response would be better than Strip Mine?

Yes a 1 Mana Response as instant which destroys any land and not only a wasteland or stripmine or any other land destroyer
and draws you 2 cards would be better then strip mine.
If it only destroys things like Wasteland, no it would not be better because Stripmine is destroying all kind of lands
and is therefore more flexible.

IBA
So what you're saying is that power level is measured in a broader context and not simply dependent upon a determination that it's the "best at what it does at the mana cost"? Weeeeeeeeird.

What is weird at including the actual game when evaluating power levels. A card can be as powerful as it wants in theory but in the game you maybe come to the conclusion this card is not powerful enough to deserve to play it because you can´t use it to the full potential while you can use other cards which are weaker in theory better in this situations. For Counterbalance this would be the case when people switching back to permanents and spell above CMC 3 or if most of the decks include 4 abrupt decays and or 3 krosan Grips. I saw this with grips in Europe as CB decreased in popularity because most of
the decks side boarded grip and they felt not confident enough to counter it with the trigger of CB.
Even now Miracle players are boarding out CB in certain matchups like DNT just because they evaluate correctly that CB is a bad card
against the combination of vial and cavern of souls.

IBA
Yeah, this straight up isn't true, no one ran it in their sideboard and it was never good. It was banned because it created logistical stalling problems. But these didn't help the Shahrazad player so much as they punished the opponent.

You mean no one you know ran it in his sideboard. I actually saw decks in Europe ran this card and which it did to the opponent.
So here you just have a little knowledge deficit. I mean stalling the opponent is exactly what you want to do when you last game
took 40 minutes and you just want to hold until they announce overtime. This is what it helps me to win the round in the
tournament.

IBA
To say that your posts are borderline unreadable is describing a real and persistent problem in communicating with you.

What is surprising me is that my International Management professors and
my native English speaking boss never had the same opinion as you because if they had I would lost
my job by now or failed my studies.

Best regards Teveshszat