I've just been playing against a bunch of delver variants and now its much tougher to beat the heavy removal draws. I found it was too much to fight through because my mana was stressed (including shaman activations), so it was very hard to be able to develop my board while also making controlling the graveyard a priority. It is true that DRS + untappers and ooze are good solutions, but in those fair matchups they are the creatures with the biggest target on their heads and when we also rely on DRS for mana and board development, sometimes we have to run him out there without ways to immediately protect it.Originally Posted by Lemnear
I also played against some miracles lists with it incorporated and it managed to get my opponents out of holes they normally aren't able to wiggle out from just because of the amount of cards. I am just wondering what the experiences of others are, as in my games against it, cruise has done a lot of work.
Full agree with Lemnear (oh my god - i did it) More Graveyard-Hate (and it means no Grafdigger's Cage^^) shoud be good for Elves because it also fights some of our worst matchups like Reanimator. Miracle with Maindeck Pyro/Red Blast means also 1-2 dead cards against us.
If you fear a delved TC you can also play a more GY-Hate add Side.
A common choice would be a 2nd Ooze (i already prefered 1 Maindeck since i played Elves). Ooze generally works good against Delver Decks because he is cheap, shrinks Gofy etc and will profit from all the dead Elves against removal heavy opponents. Against UR he can also "dodge" Forked Bolt and easily grow out of the common "3 Damage" Bolt Range.
More odd choices would be Dryad Militant (fast but fragile), the old Crop Rotation + Bojuka Bog (and Karakas) tech, or Loaming Shaman.
I feel that a Maindeck with 4 Deathrite Shaman (+8 Untapers) + 1 Ooze is well prepared for a fight against additional Graveyard Ressources.
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Is this going to be a new running gag on the forum? :PFull agree with Lemnear (oh my god - i did it
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I think Progenitus will become a lot better. Delver decks are cutting cards like Liliana, the more CA-tastic Delver decks will prey on Miracles better. So less Lili, less Judgment, trump cards are a good way to neutralize CA gains.
I have my doubts that Miracle gives a shit about TC if all the cards Delver-decks draw off it still fall prey to counterTop. Liliana is still a solid card as you can keep +1 her into hellbent and get going with topdecked TCs.
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True that less cage and less reanimator may be a nice outcome.Full agree with Lemnear (oh my god - i did it
I feel that a Maindeck with 4 Deathrite Shaman (+8 Untapers) + 1 Ooze is well prepared for a fight against additional Graveyard Ressources.
I agree with the one ooze MD (always played it and was always happy with it), and I do not think we need a second one in the SB.
So, I managed to scratch my way into the top 4 (3rd overall) of a 28-man Legacy GPT last night. Through five rounds of Swiss, finished 4-1 and the 1st overall seed going into the Top 8. Opponents ranged from high to low skill, as is expected in events of this kind. I had a decent run, but was disappointed to fall in game 3 of the semis, coming up just a hair short of the finals. The top 4 was rounded out by Miracles, UWR Delver, and Painter's Stone--a very nasty field for Elves in general, but it could have been won but for a couple of key mistakes that I hope to learn from.
The deck list is a very typical 75, based on the Riley Curran build that has seen so much play at larger events (for good reason). I'm really comfortable with it and was very pleased with the sideboard in particular, which ended up being tuned pretty perfectly for the meta on that day:
Creatures:
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
2 Birchlore Rangers
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Scavenging Ooze
Sorcery:
4 Natural Order
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
Lands:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Forest
2 Bayou
1 Taiga
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sideboard:
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Progenitus
3 Cabal Therapy
3 Thoughtseize
1 Ruric Thar, the Unbowed
1 Krosan Grip
1 Pithing Needle
1 Meekstone
1 Choke
1 Null Rod
A couple of preliminary notes:
- K-Grip is still my favorite card for all-purpose "anti-hate," as well as the one card I most want to see against Sneak Attack. I added it in lieu of a 3rd Abrupt Decay, because I seldom actually like to see multiple Abrupt Decays in a game, and they hit so many of the same targets, with each having its own advantages in certain situations. It performed very well for me in exactly the moment I had anticipated, so I am glad to have made the tweak. It's marginal, but the margin counted a lot in the quarterfinals.
- I don't have a monster like Worldspine Wurm for S&T, and I feel as though I should, but honestly, it's never won me a game, so I just would rather rely on my discard and hope to dodge that deck (I know, I know...).
- Null Rod has always underperformed a bit, and I had gone to 2x Pithing Needle instead, but called an audible at the last minute because the meta was going to be so heavy with Blade decks, where Null Rod is a very solid choice. There was also a rogue Chief Engineer build and a Painter's deck running around, and I just hate losing to those kinds of things, so I made the call and it was fine.
- The full set of NO in the main has been a decision I've never regretted. I was in a state where I was boarding it in so much it was getting to be an annoyance, and I board it out so seldom that I wonder how it ever became standard operating procedure to just run three. It's my "win button," period. Glimpse single-handedly won me exactly one game yesterday, and NO won nearly all the others.
- Choke is a beating and a half in those matchups where it's relevant, and if all it does is draw a must-counter and clear a path for Hoof, I'm fine with that.
Now, I am not a guy who has a great memory for the details of a game unless something really sticks out, so most of this is high-level and uninteresting, but here it is:
Round 1: Elves (2-1, 1-0)
Game 1 - I lost the die roll, mulled to 6, and was pretty sure I was on my way to losing. It's a hateful matchup that is absurdly draw-dependent, but you do what you have to do. Anyway, I broke serve in the opener because my opponent's draw was a Wirewood-Visionary type of hand. I got there by focusing on accelerating my mana with a T1 Llanowar, and I was the first man to Natural Order for the Hoof.
Game 2 - My sideboard strategy for this matchup is to board in my Cabal Therapies and leave the Thoughtseize at home. Why? Well, because a T1 Thoughtseize always has worked out to be something of a timewalk, and it has usually left me vulnerable to the redundancy that exists in the Elves deck. Also, an opponent who makes that play almost always falls behind me on board, and I'm fairly sure I've never lost to a Thoughtseize in the matchup, so I just quit bringing it in. I also don't like diluting my combo when I'm trying to outrace an opponent. It worked out that I never saw a lot of action and he was able to Hoof me and effectively wrath my board and put me to 1 life. After that all he had to do was untap and swing, which he did.
Game 3 - In this game my opponent was forced to mulligan down, and I had another slower hand. He started developing his board with Visionary tricks and on about turn 6 he started counting his creatures and setting up for what I figured had to be a NO turn coming right up. I had some dorks but no finisher in hand, so I had to pray a bit, and sure enough, there was Cabal Therapy right on top. I name Natural Order, he just shakes his head and shows me a two-card hand that's just double-NO. A couple turns later I hardcast my Hoof and it's curtains on a very lucky match win.
Round 2: UWR Delver (2-0, 2-0)
Game 1 - My opponent had a lot of early removal and countermagic, but I had a good 7-card hand. It was clear he hadn't played the matchup all that much, as he both blew a Swords on an Elf with a Wirewood in play, and attempted to Wasteland a Dryad Arbor with a Ranger on board. These mistakes cost him, naturally, as I was able to build to a 4-dork board and cast NO for the win.
Game 2 - This was a very weird grind. As in the previous game, my opponent had a ton of early action, but drew pretty badly in the midgame, enabling me to abuse Wirewood-Visionary and put about six guys into play. I played badly, but was pleased with my SB choices--I brought in the house, with Choke, Needle, Null Rod, K-Grip, Meekstone, and Progenitus all joining the party (I had to shave a little bit of everything, but the only game you're going to win against UWR is a slow one anyway). Eventually I had Heritage, two Birchlores, a Sentinel, two Wirewoods, and two Visionaries all participating, but Deathrite only showed up late and I was sure he had a FoW in hand, so I just tried bleeding him out. A late Glimpse chain enabled me to put Choke, Meekstone, and Null Rod into play, and a couple of Shaman activations finished the job.
Round 3: UWR Delver (2-0, 3-0)
Games 1 and 2: This again? Sigh. I consider UWR Delver a pretty terrible matchup, but it's going to be extremely popular with Treasure Cruise making its debut so there's nothing for it but to just find the angles. Somehow or other, I pulled this one out as well, in part because my opponent took an early trade I offered with an unflipped Delver, depriving him of a real clock. Honestly, I barely remember the match, because it went by fairly quickly and I was getting hungry and cranky. Game 1 was very much a tic-tac-toe touchdown sort of game, with Hoof making an earlier-than-expected arrival. Since my SB plan seemed to work well in Round 2 I kept with it, and this time Progenitus managed to earn his keep. (Quasi-Interesting trivia: I boarded Proggy in a total of five times on the day and never naturally drew him once. Is the curse broken? I'm not betting on it.) I do recall that TNN came down a little too late to race me, but other than that, this one is a blur.
Round 4: Painter's Stone (1-2, 3-1)
Game 1: Having gotten paired down to this deck, piloted by someone I knew to be an outstanding player, was a tilt-inducing piece of bad fortune. I've never liked fighting this deck and I'm not very good at it. Anyway, in this game my opponent had a slow hand except for the T1 Servant, which enabled him to Red Blast both an early GSZ that would have fetched a Reclamation Sage, and a late NO that would have won outright. Having set me back he eventually found his combo and just did his thing. He played a mediocre hand masterfully, so hats off to him.
Game 2: I was really, really fast in this game. I brought in all my spot removal and left the discard where it was--is this correct? I just don't know, because as I said, I hate slowing down in these kinds of games, especially against a deck that can shift to a prison strategy on a dime after board. Anyway, it seemed to repay me because I hit my combo on T3 and it was the kind of game where it's hard to learn much from it.
Game 3: Again, he hit the T1 Servant, countered an early setup piece, and jammed his combo before I even had the mana to respond with K-Grip on the Servant. It was bad, and I'm just not sure there's much I could have done. After griping to everybody who would listen, I tried to swallow it and move on to the deciding match for top 8.
Round 5: LED Dredge (2-0, 4-1, 1st seed)
Game 1: Dredge and Elves are functionally similar. Both are trying to abuse intricate interactions to flood the board, and both have unfair "instawin" cards that enable a quick monster to close it out--often by just pumping their dudes and turning sideways. For this reason I almost find that it feels like playing a mirror match. Anyway, my opponent kept 6 to my 7 in game 1, and I had one of those rare, fortuitous T2 Glimpse chains that get completely out of hand. This is oen reason I'm on the 2-Birchlore plan, just because he can sometimes make this kind of thing possible. When I dropped Reclamation Sage to blow up his LED, he just scooped and said, "Yeah, I think we've seen enough."
Game 2: My opponent mulled to 5 here, which isn't always a disaster for Dredge, but he made one very curious play by Firestorming my T1 Deathrite straight out of the gate. This looked like an awful value play for a guy who was already going to be struggling to keep up against a 7-card Elves hand, but it's not a deck I know well so I suppose I should consider that it was his best option. Anyway, a relatively quick NO got me the Hoofmeister, so it was just an unfortunate game for him all-around. It put me in the top 8, though, so I wasn't complaining any.
Quarterfinals: UWR Delver (2-0, 5-1)
Game 1: This was my same opponent from Round 2, and really, it felt like much the same game. Game 1 dragged on a bit and my opponent was a quick study so it was quite a bit tougher this time around. In the end, I just killed him with Hoof, overwhelming him with too many must-counter spells and just playing a bit tighter.
Game 2: My sideboard plan hadn't failed me yet, so naturally I stuck with it. This was one where he pretty much had me dead to rights. He landed a T1 Grafdigger's Cage, and my intuition was that he kept the hand on the strength of that card plus a Stoneforge Mystic. He Wasted my T1 Dryad Arbor so I fell behind pretty fast, and before long he had a Mystic in play with a Jitte in hand. Next he sunk a Meddling Mage naming Glimpse, in order to shut off the Glimpse + Dork hand that he saw from a Probe. Nest he got down a surprise Sword of Feast and Famine and attached it to the Mage to keep any Abrupt Decay draws offline. However, I drew into my K-Grip and a NO, and I tried to get myself to 7 mana while letting him get in a couple of hits and discarding my Glimpse and a Hoof in hand, which was a serious gamble in a tight situation. It was a very near-run contest, and managing my life total was the toughest thing as he quickly dropped me to dangerous territory with his unblockable Mage. When I saw my opening I finally played my NO, prompting him to confirm with a judge that the Cage would shut it down. Still, he was suspicious something was up, especially when I advised him I was holding priority before he could respond. I deployed K-Grip to keep the NO free from any countermagic, and killed the Cage, enabling NO to resolve by putting Progenitus on the field. He still had a clock, and hit me with an EOT Lightning Bolt after Progenitus' first attack, dropping me to 6. His attack brought me to 2, and he Brainstormed looking for the finishing Bolt, but it didn't come. It was by far the most interesting game of the night for me, and a very close one.
Semifinals: UWR Delver (1-2, 5-2)
Game 1: This was getting ridiculous. Four times in one day, and eventually the awfulness of the MU was bound to catch up with me, but in truth it was a pair of play mistakes in this game that cost me my trip to the finals. He had removal and an early Spell Pierce that set me back in terms of development, but his draw was slow and he saw few white cards of note. As the game ground on, I was able to start getting in a couple points of damage at a time, bounding my Arbors and Elves as needed to keep my power on board through his one real blocker, a Stoneforge Mystic. I still need to prevent him from crawling back into it, and I had a GSZ in hand, but with 3 cards in his grip I puckered a little bit and neglected to cast it and search up the Ooze. Had I done so, not only would the spell have resolved (as I confirmed with him after the game), I would have had a live Cradle to devour his graveyard to keep him off of Cruise. So what did he do? Flipped his Delver with a Cruise, naturally, and proceeded to reload. A also ran a Dryad Arbor into him when I had already used my Ranger for the turn, depriving me of one extra power on what would turn out to be my final attack. He survived the game with 1 life and a Jitte on board. That one really, really hurt.
Game 2: This game was...unpleasant. My opponent insisted I had missed a Glimpse trigger which I manifestly had not missed. I've run into this before, at the GP in Dulles last year, so fellow players, be aware of this: There is a certain kind of person who believes, incorrectly, that if you do not verbally announce a trigger as it goes on the stack, that you cannot later resolve it after having passed priority. This is simply untrue. I cast a Visionary after a Glimpse, asked for his response, to which he said, "Visionary resolves." Now, it should go without saying that he does not get to decide, actually, that Visionary "resolves" before my Glimpse trigger does. All he can do is pass priority back and allow me to resolve my trigger(s) in order. But the judge didn't see the entire sequence, so he was able to convince the judge that I missed my trigger. When I then cast a second Visionary, he did the same thing, except now the judge was actually watching. To the judge's credit he immediately recognized what was happening and rectified the situation, allowing me to draw my cards.
So I've had an opponent try to tell me I had missed my Hoof trigger because I moved to combat without announcing it, and now I've seen this nonsense, so apparently the word is out among some people to try to beat Elves players by calling them on triggers whether they've actually missed them or not, based on either a faulty interpretation of the rules, or just old-fashioned angle-shooting. Given the confusion over the new trigger rules, it's understandable that a lot of Elves players will assume they actually have missed the trigger, but rest assured, unless you make some kind of action or statement that indicates you actually missed the trigger (e.g., "Draw for Visionary," before announcing your draw for Glimpse, or saying "Craterhoof attacks for 5" the turn he comes into play), you can resolve it before moving to the next game state. Incidentally, the head judge at the DC GP told me that Nettle Sentinel was the single most missed trigger he has seen in his years of judging, so my suggestion is to be very careful about your mechanics and how you "resolve" a green spell that is supposed to untap him. Beyond that, just know the rules, which I admittedly often don't.
OK, rant over. Progenitus for the win.
Game 3: This was a game I wanted to win for a lot of reasons, but it wasn't meant to be. It was just one of those Delver-versus-Elves draws where he has everything--a T2 flipped Delver, Daze, removal, FoW, and Mystic. Null Rod closed down Jitte but not before the pesky equipment had gunned down my dudes, and it showed up way too late to save me from the Delver beats, and that was that. My opponent was a strong player who had a good draw, and that's Magic.
All in all, it was a fine run, I suppose. 7-2 in games versus UWR Delver is good, but it wasn't enough. I'm considering shifting to a different deck for GPNJ because frankly, playing a deck that is so overmatched against Sneak and Show as well as the UR/UWR Delver decks seems like a poor meta call. Anyway, it was an edifying GPT and hopefully I can cobble together an alternative before November.
Your thoughts/criticisms/etc. are most welcome.
Against painter I usually like some number of hand disruption since we are often too slow for decay or sage to be our main line of combo interaction. If they play early servant or stone, we can just strip the other half of the combo out of hand, even if we are on the draw. It can be a combo race early so we need cheap interaction to survive.
I also disagree with the boarding for the mirror. Your argument against thoughtseize in the mirror is pretty weak, no one says you have to cast it on turn 1. I would bring in all 6 discard spells because the decks just combo race and a lot of your grindy cards are irrelevant (I usually cut sage, ooze, 2 symbiote, 1 visionary if I also have ruric main so he gets the cut or 2 visionary if without ruric). If you are on the draw the onus is on you to not immediately die on their turn 3, since turn 2 kills are uncommon they get an extra turn of development from your incapacity to kill them but the deck easily goldfishes on turn 3.
My usual play for the mirror OTD (since this is our worst case scenario I'll use it as an example):
T1: develop w/ mana dork
T2: cast hand disruption, reevaluate whether to disrupt more or continue development
T3: attempt to kill or go for assembling BFF combo or packmaster based on how badly we have disrupted each other
There is something I don't understand in your sequence.
Do you claim that with your grip you can protect your NO from countermagic?
Because to my understanding it doesn't work:
You cast NO, hold priority, cast grip.
Grip resolves, cage hit the graveyard.
Now you have NO on the stack, and the priority.
If you don't do anything, you pass priority to your opponent whom can cast countermagic on your NO.
Or did I misunderstood something?
So, instead of trying to get to 7 mana, you can grip your opponent's cage at his EoT, then cast NO at yours and hope it doesn't get countered.
Also, I don't understand at all the reasonning behind not siding in discard against combo decks. You cast generally them on turn 2 (except vs TES, belcher, and others that I forget), which does not slow you down that much. But it slows your opponents, and multiple are synergetic, your first discard tells you when to play the second and what to name on cabal.
I want to know how you kept priority. From my understanding, casting NO means you have to wait till the opponent says alright and does not respond before you can cast Krosan's Grip.
When you're the active player you have to pass priority to your opponent, so all you have to do is say "retain priority" after casting NO. The spells and abilities on the stack won't start to resolve until both players have passed in succession. So in the case described, the stack will be Grip, NO, you pass, your opponent passes unless he has triggers that go off due to casting Grip, then Grip resolves. Then you have to pass priority agian before NO resolves, and this is when your opponent can counter it.
If you play NO while there is a cage in play and ask "OK?" to your opponent, you will not be able to put the creature in play due to cage. But you will not be able to cast grip either, because you will already have pass priority.
You will just have lose NO, 4 mana and a creature.
You can do it.
It's just that the default shortcut for announcing a spell is "announce spell X, pass priority."116.3c If a player has priority when he or she casts a spell, activates an ability,
or takes a special action, that player receives priority afterward.
This is why you have to state "Infernal Tutor, hold priority, break Lion's Eye Diamond" when playing Storm for example.
These elves are not of christmas land
oh no
these monsters of little green men
They call nature their friend
for just a glimpse can send
these little critters right on till the end
To get through it
It starts with a druid
and movements made fluid
By the cradle from fable
being slammed on the table
which will always enable
Them to bash and smash
as fast as they dash
around any removal so rash
As to target these fellows
while the symbiote mellows
waiting for the Craterhoof’s bellows
And if somehow the waves
of tree-hugging raves
misbehaves and goes to the graves
Tis but a blemish
fixed by replenish
of a green sun’s zenith
Summoning the deathrite
whose strength and his might
can end up winning the fight
I disagree. Stopping Top is more important than worrying about Terminus.
Elves Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/2EVsdw2
Amen, brother!!! And it's not a close call.
I don't think I'm very good at this trolling thing.
Elves Discord Channel: https://discord.gg/2EVsdw2
Someone summoned me?
The seven cardinal sins of Legacy:
1. Discuss the unbanning ofLand TaxEarthcraft.
2. Argue that banning Force of Will would make the format healthier.
3. Play Brainstorm without Fetchlands.
4. Stifle Standstill.
5. Think that Gaea's Blessing will make you Solidarity-proof.
6. Pass priority after playing Infernal Tutor.
7. Fail to playtest against Nourishing Lich (coZ iT wIlL gEt U!).
there ya go pal =)
edit: people still use ICQ?? lol thats old school.
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