All B/R update speculation.

[Dark Ritual]

Fetchlands grant way more consistency than not running fetchlands. Fetchlands are the best colorfixing lands in magic hands down as a single fetchland in a properly designed deck can get any color of mana. Can't say the same for naturally drawn ABUR dual lands. Imagine the 3 color deck and you open with 2 underground sea's and 1 island but no red/white/green mana. Must feel really good. Now replace those with fetchlands. Perfect you get any colors you need. Even without brainstorm, top, cruise, or anything that is busted with fetches in the picture fetchlands would still be format staples no matter what happens short of a ban.

People keep trying to demonize brainstorm. It's here to stay. Don't like it? Tough fucking luck for you then as WotC has shown that brainstorm isn't getting banned by years and years of inaction in regards to it in legacy and they openly stated or at least Forsythe did that they are aware of what brainstorm is in legacy but that they weren't going to ban it. Reason being if you ban brainstorm you're going down a steep slope one that leads to legacy looking more and more like modern each banned list update with a few old frame cards. Legacy is known as the brainstorm format. One does not simply axe the face of the format. Ban brainstorm and then what is legacy known for. Dual lands? I'm open. On top of that there will always be a best card in the format as it is mathematically impossible for there to not be a best card in a given format in terms of power level.

[Madsk]

Instead of banning cards, they should unbann a few.

[Zombie]

This thread is getting too serious. Time for a joke.

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...nj14/top5cards

That's just sad. Depressingly so. Head oh so firmly in the sand.

Let's take Street Fighter IV for example. You have one the best fighting game engines that rewards players with match-up knowledge and the time they put into character specialization. Sound familiar? Legacy/Modern operates basically the same way. Match up knowledge and knowing what tools to use to punish linear play, as well as putting time to know your deck's strengths and weaknesses. But that's where the similarities end as a competitive game.

I agree with what you write, but please. SF4's engine/character data is a sloppy, bug-ridden mess it's unreal. The ugliness mostly stayed under wraps in AE, but Ultra has just made things worse on so many fronts. I'm astounded people don't just boot the POS out. It's absurd and sad that such a bad product is the flagship of the genre. :P

[Darkenslight]

Instead of banning cards, they should unbann a few.

I think a test-ban of BS combined with an unbanning of Black Vise and Earthcraft should be a place to start in the next ban rotation. Survival is a strong possible, as well. But the Blue Shell has been shown, time and again, to improve consistency. And at the very heart of that is the interaction between Brainstorm and fetchlands. For example, there was an 87.5% Top 8 penetration of fetchlands, but the reason most of us aren't calling for a ban on Fetchlands is because the fetches are almost color-agnostic - Brainstorm is not, and neither is Force.

[Zombie]

I still don't understand why the hell people clamor for harder-to-remove Delvers into the format when basically everyone seems to hate the little blue shit.

[Lemnear]

I think a test-ban of BS combined with an unbanning of Black Vise and Earthcraft should be a place to start in the next ban rotation. Survival is a strong possible, as well. But the Blue Shell has been shown, time and again, to improve consistency. And at the very heart of that is the interaction between Brainstorm and fetchlands. For example, there was an 87.5% Top 8 penetration of fetchlands, but the reason most of us aren't calling for a ban on Fetchlands is because the fetches are almost color-agnostic - Brainstorm is not, and neither is Force.

This isn't YuGiOh where you semi-restrict, restrict, ban and unban the same cards in a 3-month-Rotation just because no one gives a fuck about game design and balance, but only care for the money they earn off selling the next broken card people need to win, restrict/ban it later and print the next stupid overpowered chase rare and repeat the cycle.

The Brainstorm discussion is sanctimonious at best, because people complain about Blues card selection in general, but of you offer a solution which does exactly the requested and also nerfs SDT & Ponder, they don't want it anymore if it can affect their 3-color piles like Jund, Junk, Lands, Zoo or Maverick, crying that consistancy issues would apply also to them.

All that these people want is a devastating nerf for Miracles, combo, Tempo and blue midrange for their own decks sake. They don't care for a metagame balance, despite preaching the opposite.

[testing32]

The Brainstorm discussion is sanctimonious at best, because people complain about Blues card selection in general, but of you offer a solution which does exactly the requested and also nerfs SDT & Ponder, they don't want it anymore if it can affect their 3-color piles like Jund, Junk, Lands, Zoo or Maverick, crying that consistancy issues would apply also to them.

All that these people want is a devastating nerf for Miracles, combo, Tempo and blue midrange for their own decks sake. They don't care for a metagame balance, despite preaching the opposite.

A 48-56 card deck, main deck 2 pyroblast meta isn't healthy. Period.

I actually want to be able to play combo again; Which you can do, if you like winning about as often as Jund does.

[Lemnear]

A 48-56 card deck, main deck 2 pyroblast meta isn't healthy. Period.

I actually want to be able to play combo again; Which you can do, if you like winning about as often as Jund does.

That point of view is bullshit. In Legacy, people are forced to run solutions to creatures and no one complains about that fact either. I'm not on the fence for banning Meddling Mage just because it requires me to play Chain of Vapor/Massacre in my ANT. Complaining over the potential desire to run graveyard hate (Survival era), combo countermeasures (discard, Thalia, etc) or hate for the cantrip shell (Pyroblasts, Spirit of the Lab., Chains of M.) but being ok that the whole game evolves around DRS, Delver, SFM and TNN and you have to run Plows + Bolts in your UWR deck to battle these, is hypocritical.

I don't know which kind of combo you want to play, which doesn't suffer from the loss of Brainstorm more than control does due to being unable to convert redundant combo-parts into something useful. I'm sick to explain why the idea that having brainstorm+Ponder in the metagame is BAD for combo is totally hilarious.


Edit:

And why exactly should non-blue decks get punished for a blue offender? How is that any semblance of the word balance that you just blurted out there? What do you know of anyone's own deck sake? Clearly, people who love brainstorms cant call for a ban to it. #PillarOfTheFormat #GoPlayModern

Because banning Brainstorm does not fix your fucking Problem that Ponder, Preordain, SDT plus Fetchlands would be still the superior card selection of the format and we are back with whining about the cantrip shell within 4 months! You annihilate non-Belcher-style combo decks like S&T, Delver decks would change their cantrips (have you seen the UWR mirror last night with both players derping with SDT to support their SFM?), make minor adjustments and rule supreme because their selection is still miles better than non-blues.

Edit 2: posting these bold hashtags while only coming up with shallow arguments and analysis yourself is ridiculous.

[Dice_Box]

And why exactly should non-blue decks get punished for a blue offender? How is that any semblance of the word balance that you just blurted out there? What do you know of anyone's own deck sake? Clearly, people who love brainstorms cant call for a ban to it. #PillarOfTheFormat #GoPlayModern

Can you do me a favour and elaborate on you comment "People who love Brainstorm can't call for a ban."? In the context of your sentence, I am not sure what your trying to say.

[menace13]

Can you do me a favour and elaborate on you comment "People who love Brainstorm can't call for a ban."? In the context of your sentence, I am not sure what your trying us say.

It is one of the often used replies to people calling for a ban that they don't love playing with Brainstorms. Which is far from the truth and a blanket generalization of a misstatement that is false at best. How do you know the people who want Brainstorm gone do not love casting the card as much as the next person? In gaming players love broken things. Always have.

[CabalTherapy]

That point of view is bullshit. In Legacy, people are forced to run solutions to creatures and no one complains about that fact either. I'm not on the fence for banning Meddling Mage just because it requires me to play Chain of Vapor/Massacre in my ANT. Complaining over the potential desire to run graveyard hate (Survival era), combo countermeasures (discard, Thalia, etc) or hate for the cantrip shell (Pyroblasts, Spirit of the Lab., Chains of M.) but being ok that the whole game evolves around DRS, Delver, SFM and TNN and you have to run Plows + Bolts in your UWR deck to battle these, is hypocritical.

I don't know which kind of combo you want to play, which doesn't suffer from the loss of Brainstorm more than control does due to being unable to convert redundant combo-parts into something useful. I'm sick to explain why the idea that having brainstorm+Ponder in the metagame is BAD for combo is totally hilarious.


Edit:


Because banning Brainstorm does not fix your fucking Problem that Ponder, Preordain, SDT plus Fetchlands would be still the superior card selection of the format and we are back with whining about the cantrip shell within 4 months! You annihilate non-Belcher-style combo decks like S&T, Delver decks would change their cantrips (have you seen the UWR mirror last night with both players derping with SDT to support their SFM?), make minor adjustments and rule supreme because their selection is still miles better than non-blues.

I know this may sound weird, Peter, but I am on your side here.
+1

Although, it is my mistake to read this thread because it tends to be simply a anti-BS rage. For my part, I love this card and wouldn't want a format without it.

But if they would ever ban BS (which won't happen) I will be smashing some faces with LED Dredge again.

[Lemnear]

It is one of the often used replies to people calling for a ban that they don't love playing with Brainstorms. Which is far from the truth and a blanket generalization of a misstatement that is false at best. How do you know the people who want Brainstorm gone do not love casting the card as much as the next person? In gaming players love broken things. Always have.

It would help if people would try to comprehend the topic of cantrips in it's entirety instead of picking up an aspect they dislike and don't care for the unexpected results.

Some people also Wish for insects to extinct because they hate them in their appartments, but never think about the colateral ecologic damage this would cause.

[menace13]

It would help if people would try to comprehend the topic of cantrips in it's entirety instead of picking up an aspect they dislike and don't care for the unexpected results.

Some people also Wish for insects to extinct because they hate them in their appartments, but never think about the colateral ecologic damage this would cause.

Depends on the insect. Mosquitoes are an invasive species that spreads disease, if they were gone would be a benefit to environments and be replaced on the diets of wildlife.

[Lord_Mcdonalds]

Spiders would casually switch to an all grain diet in that case

[testing32]

It would help if people would try to comprehend the topic of cantrips in it's entirety instead of picking up an aspect they dislike and don't care for the unexpected results.

Some people also Wish for insects to extinct because they hate them in their appartments, but never think about the colateral ecologic damage this would cause.

Banning brainstorm would be huge. If you think that delver just switches to preordain and carries on you are fooling yourself.

We are never going to agree though.

So, I'll propose a hypothetical to you then. At what point would the color imbalance need to be looked at? 4 maindeck pyroblasts in every deck? Maindeck Jaya Ballard? 8/8 brainstorm decks in every top 8? 16/16?

What would it take?

[Zombie]

Banning brainstorm would be huge. If you think that delver just switches to preordain and carries on you are fooling yourself.

We are never going to agree though.

So, I'll propose a hypothetical to you then. At what point would the color imbalance need to be looked at? 4 maindeck pyroblasts in every deck? Maindeck Jaya Ballard? 8/8 brainstorm decks in every top 8? 16/16?

What would it take?

Doesn't matter as long as they have many different names.

[testing32]

Doesn't matter as long as they have many different names.

I think that is sad.

Legacy - the format where you can play with almost 20,000 different cards but if you want to win you get to play with about 50 cards. And if you want to brew you have about 20 cards to work with (you are playing blue and you are running force so there go about 20) and you can pick maybe 1 more color because you are playing red for pyroblast as well.

[FoolofaTook]

I'm just going to reiterate something I posted earlier in the thread:

The Day 1 undefeated lists had 600 spells in them. 275 of them were blue. 255 of them were another color. 70 were artifacts. That meta blows chunks.

I'll go do the count on the top 8 lists when I get the time but I'm betting the percentages are similar given that MUD made the top 8.

[Star|Scream]

Spiders would casually switch to an all grain diet in that case

What about the gluten-free wolf spider?

[H]

Wizards doesn't ban things based off hard data, you're not going to find a "magic number."

I think everyone needs to understand this:
Wizards does not consider Brainstorm an archetype.
Ergo, Wizards does not feel any one archetype is over preforming.
Conclusion: do nothing.

I get that people feel one way or another. Your feelings are irrelevant, Wizards feels that the format is healthy because no one deck is over-preforming.

Let me break it down more simply:
Is Brainstorm overpowered? Probably.
Is it a problem? Maybe.
Does Wizards feel like it is enough to make a banning? No, because it isn't an archetype and Wizards has only ever banned archetype defining cards.